Shaw & Urhogide

[McRightSide]

17 minutes ago, TrickyTrev said:

Agreed.

 

People talk about his MoM award in the win against Derby, a match in which Derby were unlucky not to be 3 up by HT and a cup game where he did well and that’s about it.

 

He was absolutely horrendous in that Derby game.

 

He was accountable for 3 or 4 major chances they missed.

 

One of the most laughable MOTMs I've ever seen.

 

He did great against Exeter and I think I remember one league game where he had a really strong 1st half (I want to say Middlesbrough but not sure) aside from that he was ponderous and reckless 

[Burnsie]

Are people still sat there spouting the rubbish they screwed over?

 

Both players adhered to their contractual obligations.... Which is more than can be said by the club.

 

In terms of ROI... What are people expecting? If you come through the you setting how long should you be tied to the club? Should you only be allowed to leave once someone bid 10 million? 

 

Should clubs and companies not invest in their staff in case they leave?! I believe you'll find that most successful companies do the exact opposite. They invest in their employees and give them the opportunity to progress either within the company or within the industry.... Some companies make contractual restrictions where you may be required to pay back the cost of qualifications if you leave the company within a certain period after attaining so qualification... Which of course is stipulated in the contract..... Which of course as mentioned previously, both players but not the club adhered to

[TrickyTrev]

14 minutes ago, victorturner said:

Some truth in that but there was story that Hutch and Patto attacked Shaw in the dressing room . He hardly played after that.

His sendings off were destructive but the captain and manager should have been encouraging him and warning him. What happened to Hutch and Patto? They continued to play. Right or wrong in their objections to his views, the manager should have  curbed them swell as Shaw. Shaw was possibly a victim while we played a midfield of Joey, BB, Reach and Windass plus wide man Green occasionally reinforced by wing back Palmer, none of whom could tackle in midfield. Madness. 

Agreed but in fairness, when you listen to the stories of dressing room bust ups from the likes of Carlton Palmer, Nigel Pearson, David Hirst etc from when we were a decent side, players digging one another out when they weren’t performing well was all part and parcel of what made us a successful side.

 

Even after that period, in Paolo Di Canio’s book there’s an interesting story about a bust up he had with Ron Atkinson. 
 

The difference back then however was that players had the strength of character to deal with this and use it to motivate them.

 

If the stories of the bust up you mentioned are true and it affected Shaw in such a way that he never played well for us again, then it further strengthens the argument that he shouldn’t have played for us after signing that deal with Celtic and was perhaps a little too delicate for a relegation battle.

[alanharper]

13 hours ago, Therealrealist said:

It will be a different challenge when the season kicks off..and they are playing in front of 250 at east fife or Dumbarton or summat

 

Yeah they could have stayed here and gone to Cheltenham and Morecambe instead, and played in front of 15-16k every home game. 

[Beighton Owl 87]

1 hour ago, Ellis Rimmer said:

He screwed us mate, biggest screw job since Montreal 

Bret screwed Bret

[SallyCinnamon]

40 minutes ago, TrickyTrev said:

Agreed.

 

People talk about his MoM award in the win against Derby, a match in which Derby were unlucky not to be 3 up by HT and a cup game where he did well and that’s about it.

Almost as if you’re talking about a 30 year old pro. Not a 19 year old lad…

[SallyCinnamon]

13 minutes ago, Burnsie said:

Are people still sat there spouting the rubbish they screwed over?

 

Both players adhered to their contractual obligations.... Which is more than can be said by the club.

 

In terms of ROI... What are people expecting? If you come through the you setting how long should you be tied to the club? Should you only be allowed to leave once someone bid 10 million? 

 

Should clubs and companies not invest in their staff in case they leave?! I believe you'll find that most successful companies do the exact opposite. They invest in their employees and give them the opportunity to progress either within the company or within the industry.... Some companies make contractual restrictions where you may be required to pay back the cost of qualifications if you leave the company within a certain period after attaining so qualification... Which of course is stipulated in the contract..... Which of course as mentioned previously, both players but not the club adhered to

Strange how people don’t get this.

 

Football fans can be a bit dense at times.

[TrickyTrev]

1 minute ago, SallyCinnamon said:

Almost as if you’re talking about a 30 year old pro. Not a 19 year old lad…

I’m just commenting on the games he was deemed to have done well in.

 

Nothing to do with his age.

[SallyCinnamon]

Just now, TrickyTrev said:

I’m just commenting on the games he was deemed to have done well in.

 

Nothing to do with his age.

Well he was raw, but for someone his age in a team low on confidence with senior players not pulling their weight. I think he did alright.

 

He has good attributes. He might not make it, but Celtic obviously saw enough to offer him a deal. And so did we, but it was too late.

Don’t particularly care what he goes on to do. More annoyed that not for the first time we let a potential asset go for free. And if he does fulfil his potential - Sheffield Wednesday certainly won’t benefit from it. 

[BIG D]

They both have definitely have a chance. No one will ever convince me though that they wouldn’t have been better off career wise staying down here with a move to a progressive Championship club. Don’t blame them for leaving us. 

[SallyCinnamon]

6 minutes ago, BIG D said:

They both have definitely have a chance. No one will ever convince me though that they wouldn’t have been better off career wise staying down here with a move to a progressive Championship club. Don’t blame them for leaving us. 

From what I’ve heard our offer to them to stay was poor. Celtic offered them more. Football is a risky career - one bad tackle and it could be over for one of them before it began. They did the sensible thing for their future.

Strictly football wise - whether it’s a bad move remains to be seen. I personally think it’s a good one. People might not like to admit it, but Celtic are huge club. Good training facilities. Massive crowds. Passionate fanbase. Incredibly high chance of silverware. Yes knocked out but pretty much get some form of European football every year (will now compete in the Europa). As a young lad it’s a huge opportunity for both of them. 
 

Celtic might not be in a good way at the moment but things can change quickly in football. And worth remembering they’re 19/20 year olds. Genuinely got their whole career ahead of them! 

Edited July 29, 2021 by SallyCinnamon

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

55 minutes ago, Therealrealist said:

I think if theyd just said we are moving for more money then fair enough..but the old 'moving gor footballing reasons' was utter bullshizen..playing in our first team is better than sitting on a bench in cl..for  2 games

 

I'm not sure that would go down too well with the Celtic fans.

[Guest Therealrealist]

20 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

I'm not sure that would go down too well with the Celtic fans.

Celtic fans probly dont even know theyve signed tbh

[victorturner]

3 hours ago, TrickyTrev said:

Agreed but in fairness, when you listen to the stories of dressing room bust ups from the likes of Carlton Palmer, Nigel Pearson, David Hirst etc from when we were a decent side, players digging one another out when they weren’t performing well was all part and parcel of what made us a successful side.

 

Even after that period, in Paolo Di Canio’s book there’s an interesting story about a bust up he had with Ron Atkinson. 
 

The difference back then however was that players had the strength of character to deal with this and use it to motivate them.

 

If the stories of the bust up you mentioned are true and it affected Shaw in such a way that he never played well for us again, then it further strengthens the argument that he shouldn’t have played for us after signing that deal with Celtic and was perhaps a little too delicate for a relegation battle.

Quite likely. We can only speculate..... but just as likely that Patto and Hutch did not want him to play and made it clear to the manager. BFR was a very good man manager. Trevor Francis could not manage the resentment between Hirst/Bright and Warhurst . Warhurst made his mistakes but he was a bright younger star in the making while Hirst/Bright were fading with age and injuries but it was Warhurst who left. Older players can exceed their authority. 

 Dressing room bust ups need resolving and we do not know whether this one festered. Shaw was the kind of midfielder we needed last Spring.

[FreshOwl]

Very early days for them at Celtic. Some young players make years of cameo appearances before they eventually blow up. 

[Glenn59]

You'd think we just lost Pele and Messi.

 

Both had, only had, potential. Neither has actually pulled up any trees.

 

Shaw was living on the Exeter game, was a liability in many ways with silly challenges, wasn't exactly ripped the league apart with his performances.

Urhoghide was another who slowed glimpses of what he may be, but the counter to that is why did Wimbledon release him if he was such a good prospect.

 

They are both ex players and will in time to come be remembered, by a few, for their part in our downfall.

 

It's about looking forward with a manager building a new team who want to play for the club and turn things around.

 

They've gone to the Scottish Pub League and may well end up being loaned out to the likes of Morton or Falkirk after a while.

[TrickyTrev]

36 minutes ago, victorturner said:

Quite likely. We can only speculate..... but just as likely that Patto and Hutch did not want him to play and made it clear to the manager. BFR was a very good man manager. Trevor Francis could not manage the resentment between Hirst/Bright and Warhurst . Warhurst made his mistakes but he was a bright younger star in the making while Hirst/Bright were fading with age and injuries but it was Warhurst who left. Older players can exceed their authority. 

 Dressing room bust ups need resolving and we do not know whether this one festered. Shaw was the kind of midfielder we needed last Spring.

Not sure I agree with your assessment on Hirst and Bright.

 

David Hirst was the best striker in the country and now had just attracted a British transfer record bid from Man Utd, he was Alex Ferguson’s top target ahead of Alan Shearer (Fergie stated this in his book) and Mark Bright had only just signed for the club that season and went on in the following seasons to score more than both Hirst and Warhurst.

 

[TrickyTrev]

8 minutes ago, TrickyTrev said:

Not sure I agree with your assessment on Hirst and Bright.

 

David Hirst was the best striker in the country and now had just attracted a British transfer record bid from Man Utd, he was Alex Ferguson’s top target ahead of Alan Shearer (Fergie stated this in his book) and Mark Bright had only just signed for the club that season and went on in the following seasons to score more than both Hirst and Warhurst.

 

Just to add, Paul Warhurst refused to play in an FA Cup final.

 

Probably not the type of player you want around the dressing room.

[mrgund]

Throw head back laugh.gif

[victorturner]

4 hours ago, TrickyTrev said:

Not sure I agree with your assessment on Hirst and Bright.

 

David Hirst was the best striker in the country and now had just attracted a British transfer record bid from Man Utd, he was Alex Ferguson’s top target ahead of Alan Shearer (Fergie stated this in his book) and Mark Bright had only just signed for the club that season and went on in the following seasons to score more than both Hirst and Warhurst.

 

Hirst had been crocked and had put on weight. By 1993 he was well past his best and Bright was already 30 when he signed.