Sonny Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 What does it matter what those constraints are for another industry in another country. We knew the rules and we broke them. That is not unfair. Hopefully this time we’ll escape punishment but the facts will still remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S36 OWL Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, Sonny said: What does it matter what those constraints are for another industry in another country. We knew the rules and we broke them. That is not unfair. Hopefully this time we’ll escape punishment but the facts will still remain. DC just forgot what year it was when he sold the stadium to himself. Easily done, mere technicality. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hunt Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 hours ago, pazowl55 said: Players like Forestieri were never going to be signed under his reign. Investment got us back to back playoffs. McCabe did it without spending silly money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sham67 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 hours ago, ChinaOwl said: Chansiri's investment in players has never been the issue for me. Spending £3 million on players like Forestieri and Hooper in the modern market is not excessive. The problem has always been the imbalance in the transfer policy. That is to say signing players that were not needed and not selling on when necessary. People that try to defend Chansiri over the accumulated losses usually compare against other clubs like Villa or Derby. They have spent far more. We have ended up categorised in the same bracket as them because we have not balanced purchases with sales. On the same note, I have seen comments on here using the "If we had have sold him, there would have been meltdown on here". In my time supporting Wednesday, I have seen players like Dalian Atkinson, John Harkes, Paul Warhurst and Carlton Palmer sold to balance the books or fund other signings. Yeah, of course it grinds people but most are adult enough to realise that there are times when things like that have to be done. Players come and go. That is the nature of football. I wish Chansiri could have realised that. Warhurst and Palmer left because they fell out with the manager. Also, if my memory is correct, Palmer left on a free at the end of his contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevthelodgemoorowl Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Sonny said: FFP was in force then - at least for some of MM’s reign. Believe it was first enforced 2012/13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinaOwl Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 19 minutes ago, pioowl said: I,m learning something every day,even in my advanced years.Could you advise me what the constraints are and by what authority i.e. " 1 on losses I am permitted to make,2 those generated by creditors ,and 3 " some by government.? OK, I have to work within limitations of credit. Most basic analogy being like the credit limit on a credit card. I know what my maximum permitted losses are so I work within a financial plan. Then I readjust my spending accordingly. If I go above that, banks will cut off funding and it will affect my credit rating. On international transfers I have to deal with governmental constraints too. In my case, those limitations are generally set by the Chinese government but I still have to work within them. It is all bound to cash flow forecasting and financial discipline. As Sonny says, the situation in football is slightly different in as much as the restrictions set are within the League's own financial code of practice. Those rules stipulate that the maximum permitted losses are £39 million over three years. So build a three year cash flow forecast based on that and then use it to generate a spending plan. Balance purchases against sales and buy against a clear strategy rather than the scattergun approach adopted in the early years. Difficult yes but not impossible. Other clubs manage to do it and according to most financial statistics posted on this site in recent times, we consistently perform among the worst in the Championship using every related financial metric. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ante's Bubbly Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Yellowbelly said: I agree to an extent, but what I’d add to that is due to players fitness/injuries we’ve often not been in a position to sell our assets for a profit. In hindsight there was a moment for each player when we either sold or kept hold of for another push at promotion. The opportunities for selling came quite early in DCs time when there was a real possibility we could go up. Soon after turning these offers down we were beset with constant injuries and issues surrounding fitness that ultimately destroyed any opportunity to sell for anywhere near what those players were worth to us. Yes, there were obviously times where we should have cut our losses and we were fools not to but the Carlos/Jos season we were literally down to bare bones and needed to keep hold of what we had to put out a side. We were then stuck with expensive crocks no one wanted and we have had to watch them run down their expensive contracts and limp off to pastures new. This is why we haven’t refreshed our squad to any great extent - no bugger wanted our once pretty good but now crocked players. Yes and that is the crux of the matter. We did overspend on those players because there was little to no chance of getting proper value for money out of a lot of players that we signed, due to their ages, lack of form, lack of fitness and injury problems. We suddenly went from not buying those kinds of players, to the majority of our signings being those kinds of players. The purchase of Rhodes really highlights the bad value for money that we got during recent years under DC, because we paid a ridiculous amount of money for a player that we tried on loan, and despite his poor goal record for a couple of years before that, and despite the lack of evidence during the loan period that he was going to suddenly become a goal machine again, we still paid over the going rate for the time and we still agreed to pay him a ridiculous amount of money, despite being less than average at this level. people have published tables recently showing how much we have paid for those two brief cracks at the play-offs and the expenditure has got higher, while the season points totals have got less! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinaOwl Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 6 minutes ago, Sham67 said: Warhurst and Palmer left because they fell out with the manager. Also, if my memory is correct, Palmer left on a free at the end of his contract. I thought Palmer was sold for around £2.7 million to Leeds but my memory is probably letting me down. Warhurst did fall out with Francis but I would suggest the biggest reason for the sale was to balance the books brought about by other transfer activity, not least being Sinton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daizan10 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 On 22/02/2020 at 19:55, TodwickOwl said: No Yes they will. A new owner would be able to put another 20m of their own funds in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ante's Bubbly Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 14 minutes ago, ChinaOwl said: I thought Palmer was sold for around £2.7 million to Leeds but my memory is probably letting me down. Warhurst did fall out with Francis but I would suggest the biggest reason for the sale was to balance the books brought about by other transfer activity, not least being Sinton. Not for the rumoured fall out with David Hirst then? (Warhurst). Sorry just throwing another spanner in! Yes, Sinton was a big buy back then and Warhurst suffered a run of bad luck injury wise after leaving us. I also thought that Palmer went for around £2.6M or £2.7M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadsleyOwl Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 16 minutes ago, ChinaOwl said: I thought Palmer was sold for around £2.7 million to Leeds but my memory is probably letting me down. Warhurst did fall out with Francis but I would suggest the biggest reason for the sale was to balance the books brought about by other transfer activity, not least being Sinton. Palmer was sold for £2.7mill, we bought a better player in Ian Taylor but the then manager didn’t know what to do with them both and I think sold them both around the same time. Harkes was sold to fund the Sinton deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinaOwl Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Ante's Bubbly said: Not for the rumoured fall out with David Hirst then? (Warhurst). Sorry just throwing another spanner in! Yes, Sinton was a big buy back then and Warhurst suffered a run of bad luck injury wise after leaving us. I also thought that Palmer went for around £2.6M or £2.7M OK, I guess it doesn't really make much difference to my original point. The club can't let the feelings of fans dictate the transfer policy. If a player needs to be sold to balance the books, so be it. Life moves on and it is proven that even losing revered players often works out for the best in the long run if it means funding of new recruits and strengthening the team and squad as a unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animis Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 23 minutes ago, ChinaOwl said: I thought Palmer was sold for around £2.7 million to Leeds but my memory is probably letting me down. Warhurst did fall out with Francis but I would suggest the biggest reason for the sale was to balance the books brought about by other transfer activity, not least being Sinton. You're right - also, Warhurst started the 93/94 season as he wanted; centre forward, and we had a rubbish start and he struggled and didn't hit the form of the previous season. I thought it was good business at the time, but if I recall correctly, the transfer sum was less than Blackburn had offered a month or so before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
full fathom five Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 11 minutes ago, WadsleyOwl said: Palmer was sold for £2.7mill, we bought a better player in Ian Taylor but the then manager didn’t know what to do with them both and I think sold them both around the same time. Harkes was sold to fund the Sinton deal Are you saying Ian Taylor was a better player than Carlton Palmer? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioowl Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 34 minutes ago, ChinaOwl said: OK, I have to work within limitations of credit. Most basic analogy being like the credit limit on a credit card. I know what my maximum permitted losses are so I work within a financial plan. Then I readjust my spending accordingly. If I go above that, banks will cut off funding and it will affect my credit rating. On international transfers I have to deal with governmental constraints too. In my case, those limitations are generally set by the Chinese government but I still have to work within them. It is all bound to cash flow forecasting and financial discipline. As Sonny says, the situation in football is slightly different in as much as the restrictions set are within the League's own financial code of practice. Those rules stipulate that the maximum permitted losses are £39 million over three years. So build a three year cash flow forecast based on that and then use it to generate a spending plan. Balance purchases against sales and buy against a clear strategy rather than the scattergun approach adopted in the early years. Difficult yes but not impossible. Other clubs manage to do it and according to most financial statistics posted on this site in recent times, we consistently perform among the worst in the Championship using every related financial metric. But our benefactor bought a limited company in England and the point is the company has done nothing wrong in English company law. The leagues own financial code is flawed and needs to be replaced with directors/owners /shareholders personally guaranteeing any losses,like Warne and many others have suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioowl Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 7 minutes ago, full fathom five said: Are you saying Ian Taylor was a better player than Carlton Palmer? No he cant be ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinaOwl Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 minute ago, pioowl said: But our benefactor bought a limited company in England and the point is the company has done nothing wrong in English company law. The leagues own financial code is flawed and needs to be replaced with directors/owners /shareholders personally guaranteeing any losses,like Warne and many others have suggested. I wouldn't necessarily disagree with your second point. I do not believe the current model for administering P & S is perfect. Far from it in fact. I do believe that there needs to be some controls in place and we are currently bound by the existing one. The club must have agreed to be bound by the rules in order to take part in the competition. Don't retrospectively argue against something that was previously agreed and enacted. Company law and competition rules are two different things. The club is bound by both, not one or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadsleyOwl Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, full fathom five said: Are you saying Ian Taylor was a better player than Carlton Palmer? too right I am. And I really rated Carlton by the way, he was great for us. Edited February 25, 2020 by WadsleyOwl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Lestrade Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Just now, WadsleyOwl said: too right I am. Wow a big claim, I would say whilst Taylor was a very god player for Wednesday he wasn't better than Palmer (What's this got to do with a takeover?) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadsleyOwl Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Inspector Lestrade said: Wow a big claim, I would say whilst Taylor was a very god player for Wednesday he wasn't better than Palmer (What's this got to do with a takeover?) Not while at Wednesday no, but we got him for £1million, we should have kept him and move Carlton on for the £2.7mill or whatever it was, but we sold them both. Taylor ended up being a Villa legend he was a quality midfielder. nothing to do with takeover but someone brought up selling players on, and how we’re not very good at it. I apologise Edited February 25, 2020 by WadsleyOwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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