Got me thinking......

[Inspector Lestrade]

5 hours ago, The Night-Owl said:

 

Yep but still there are numerous trap doors and variables. Such as we get off to a flyer Saturday, the managerial situation drags on. Bullen keeps the job and then eventually loses his mojo and the good feeling evaporates or the wrong appointment is made, fans get on the new guys back and call for Bullen to be re-installed or something, for example. We could on the other hand start off slow after an abject display against Reading, that seems unrepresentative of our pre-season displays. The new man comes in, gets off to a good start and the honeymoon period, gets us dreaming again, till the next dry spell or injuries or something, for example. 

 

I just feel, if we persist with the same methods, the same short term thinking, etc it will all lead to the same sort of inevitable pitfalls and outcomes.

 

If only we hadn't been derailed by Bruce or back after Wembley we were more forward thinking and brought in the attributes we lacked. I feel after Bruce, Villa pointed the way to go by replacing him with Dean Smith, we should have been or should be more progressive, ambitious and forward thinking, like Villa were and we should go for a younger high profile manager or coach if we can't get the ready-made suitable candidates such as Hughton or Jokanović.

 

It's ultimately short term thinking and poor recruitment in and out, that is our downfall and that will inevitably hinder us again, until we start being more pro-active with recruitment and sales, more progressive and forward thinking.

 

Going forward I'm in agreement with you, but its finding that young progressive manager.  Plenty of young managers have made the step up only not to make the grade.

 

At the end of the day it is a big gamble and with today's impatient fans, as soon as they hit a bad patch murmurings of he's out of his depth quickly appear.  

Edited August 1, 2019 by Mycroft

[Animis]

Carlos was given a decent budget - far more than anyone over the last 20 years, so you could say it would have been hard to fec it up. Nevertheless, he did achieve two play offs, even though the football at times was turgid.

 

This season, even with Bullen in place for the season, the squad are capable of a top 10 finish.

 

The key to me is whether we are actually out of an embargo, as reported last week but not officially confirmed. If we are, this presumably releases some funds for a new manager to strengthen the key areas.

 

If we do this before the transfer window, and get through August with a new manager and two/three additions, I think we'll be around the top 6 most of the season.

[Tamworthowl]

4 hours ago, scilly owl said:

Carlos still polarises opinions doesn’t he !!

There were a lot of wonderful memories associated with his tenure but he really failed ( twice) at critical times.

The mystery to me is Jos...I still cannot fathom out who recommended giving him a try. I think that there was no initial outcry because none of us had heard of Carlos when he was appointed and that started brilliantly, so we were all hopeful that another anonymous appointment might work out.

 

 

If we can reflect on Carlos with a bit of positivity, perhaps we should do the same for Jos.

 

When Carlos left, we were really struggling. Remember we had had several matches without a shot on target. Bullen took over (good win at Forest) and gave up performances v Burton and Carlisle that rank amongst the worst I can remember. Jos took over as we headed to Bramhall Lane where finally the blunts would get revenge for the BDM. But Jos had us organised. And committed. The second half of the season we improved, we blooded youth, we thrashed Norwich on the final day. We had the mystery of Millwall away, but wins at Hull and Leeds. Despite his dour demeanour, Jos did very well in the latter part of 17-18. It's what happened in 18-19 that's unfathomable. It's the first half of 18-19 that defines Jos and he had to go, but his first five months weren't anywhere near as bad.

[tarn owl]

10 hours ago, DJMortimer said:

 

NO, NO, NO.

 

Unlucky my arse. It was like a champion boxer not throwing any punches and hoping to tire his opponent out and winning by default by back-pedalling and holding on for the entire fight.

Wow, i think i touched a nerve. Their goal was questionable offside and came off Tom Lees leg and dribbles in the net. It's the playoffs, they are tight and you need luck. Also need your 8 million striker to have the bottle to take a pen. Huddersfield were not the dog and gun and Aaron Mooy was best player on the pitch. I am not saying Carlos is perfect, But if that penalty shootout goes different then David Wagner might not become a hot ticket and Carlos might be.

 

 

[DJMortimer]

35 minutes ago, tarn owl said:

Wow, i think i touched a nerve.

 

Well, yes. It was a glorious opportunity, and who knows when the next one will come? Yet we did some of Huddersfield's work for them by being so negative and terrified.

[scilly owl]

1 hour ago, Tamworthowl said:

 

If we can reflect on Carlos with a bit of positivity, perhaps we should do the same for Jos.

 

When Carlos left, we were really struggling. Remember we had had several matches without a shot on target. Bullen took over (good win at Forest) and gave up performances v Burton and Carlisle that rank amongst the worst I can remember. Jos took over as we headed to Bramhall Lane where finally the blunts would get revenge for the BDM. But Jos had us organised. And committed. The second half of the season we improved, we blooded youth, we thrashed Norwich on the final day. We had the mystery of Millwall away, but wins at Hull and Leeds. Despite his dour demeanour, Jos did very well in the latter part of 17-18. It's what happened in 18-19 that's unfathomable. It's the first half of 18-19 that defines Jos and he had to go, but his first five months weren't anywhere near as bad.

I accept that analysis... he was dealt a bum hand and wasn’t allowed to invest. The puzzle for me is who thought that he might be the sort of character to galvanise and motivate the troops .

[tarn owl]

8 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

 

Well, yes. It was a glorious opportunity, and who knows when the next one will come? Yet we did some of Huddersfield's work for them by being so negative and terrified.

I feel the pain, it was a really bad night at Hillsborough and 1 i will not forget. We didn't win overall so Wagner was right and we were wrong. But if Rhodes steps up to take the 1st pen instead of sending brave sir sam up? Carlos is at wembley again and then who knows.

[gurujuan]

5 minutes ago, scilly owl said:

I accept that analysis... he was dealt a bum hand and wasn’t allowed to invest. The puzzle for me is who thought that he might be the sort of character to galvanise and motivate the troops .

Indeed

[billyblack]

12 hours ago, The Night-Owl said:

 

Yep but still there are numerous trap doors and variables. Such as we get off to a flyer Saturday, the managerial situation drags on. Bullen keeps the job and then eventually loses his mojo and the good feeling evaporates or the wrong appointment is made, fans get on the new guys back and call for Bullen to be re-installed or something, for example. We could on the other hand start off slow after an abject display against Reading, that seems unrepresentative of our pre-season displays. The new man comes in, gets off to a good start and the honeymoon period, gets us dreaming again, till the next dry spell or injuries or something, for example. 

 

I just feel, if we persist with the same methods, the same short term thinking, etc it will all lead to the same sort of inevitable pitfalls and outcomes.

 

If only we hadn't been derailed by Bruce or back after Wembley we were more forward thinking and brought in the attributes we lacked. I feel after Bruce, Villa pointed the way to go by replacing him with Dean Smith, we should have been or should be more progressive, ambitious and forward thinking, like Villa were and we should go for a younger high profile manager or coach if we can't get the ready-made suitable candidates such as Hughton or Jokanović.

 

It's ultimately short term thinking and poor recruitment in and out, that is our downfall and that will inevitably hinder us again, until we start being more pro-active with recruitment and sales, more progressive and forward thinking.

Amen to that

[VBQ24]

Keep Huddersfield out for 30 min and then beat Reading. We'll never get a better chance. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by VBQ24

[S36 OWL]

15 hours ago, Dronfield Blue said:

 

A lot of truth in there, but I cannot forgive Carlos for the shambles of a display against Udders in the semis of the play offs. Shocking tactics. We should have blown them away at Hillsborough after gaining a draw away.

 

Whoever won that match was going up. Reading were a poor side that over achieved that year, hence Udders promoted.

 

Carlos should have been sacked then.

 

We will never have a better chance of promotion than we did that season. Carlos's negative tactics cost us big time.

[gurujuan]

As I started this thread in a positive fashion, I don’t think we should dwell on the missed opportunities. We have a good squad, with some very good players, and if we get things right this week, we can surely challenge again.  I think we are in a position, where any half decent manager could get us challenging  What we should be looking at in our search for a manager, is first of all, someone who can work with the players we have.  This I feel, rules out a lot of, otherwise competent, managers on that list, because they are too old school, and will need to be surrounded by their own people.  We don’t need that turmoil

That leaves us with someone who can work with, and hopefully improve the existing players.  If we can appoint someone soon enough, then he might get some input into any last minute recruitment.  If not, then we work from our existing list of targets 

[hykehamowl]

I still think, given the way we played against Udders in both legs, that the final - had we come through the shoot-out - would have been exactly the same as the Reading-Udders game: 0-0 and penalties. After losing to Hull, I think Carlos would have been even more cautious second time round. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by hykehamowl

[DJMortimer]

22 minutes ago, hykehamowl said:

I still think, given the way we played against Udders in both legs, that the final - had we come through the shoot-out - would have been exactly the same as the Reading-Udders game: 0-0 and penalties. After losing to Hull, I think Carlos would have been even more cautious second time round. 

 

Quite likely. But that is the heart of the problem isn't it? We'd spent a fortune on all those attacking options in terms of fees and salaries (Rhodes, Reach, Forestieri, Hooper, Joao, Fletcher, Winnall, Matias, Wallace, Abdi) and in comparison the outlay on the other half of the game was a pittance. Yet which unit were we trying to put the burden on in the way we played in that second season of Carvalhal's? It was like working flat out to provide Lewis Hamilton with the best car on the circuit and then telling him he couldn't use the highest gears and it made no sense. 

 

We had the weapons to have beaten Huddersfield but instead chose to shoulder our arms and either hope that the capriciousness of fate would slightly be in our favour or perhaps the opponents would simply be bored into submission. It was like we were playing against them and ourselves.

[IstillhateSteveBould]

I think it’s easy with hindsight to slate Carlos for the Huddersfield games, but he just set up the way he had done for the majority of his time here. 

 

He never set us up to go at teams. He was all about control. When we had the ball we built from the back and kept possession - when we didn’t, we were compact and disciplined. We then often threw caution to the wind in the last 3rd or so of games.

That was his way and it won us a lot of points over 2 season. I don’t agree with the idea that we changed and became more negative in the 2nd season. It was simply more difficult after teams had figured us out. 

 

My issues with Carlos were,

1. He wouldn’t/couldn’t adapt once we’d been sussed.

2. He refused to accept we needed pace and power.

 

He probably should have been sacked after Huddersfield. The squad was in desperate need of a refresh at that point. 

[The Night-Owl]

There are some very good points in this thread. Like in the last few comments, I'd be mindful of repeating the same sort of mistakes as the Carlos and Jos era's. I'd be wary of going for someone who is seemingly unflexible with their tactics and style of play. I'd also be wary of bringing in someone to replace Bruce, due to the timing, that doesn't fit or suit our current squad and someone more defensive minded.

 

I'd personally prefer someone more attack minded, progressive and forward thinking than the usual suspects in the betting and a more ambitious appointment. Whoever comes in will have a tricky job due to the unfortunate timing. A more defensive minded or old school type of appointment might appeal in some ways but I think that wouldn't suit our squad and with little time or ability to suitably change things that could set us backwards.

Edited August 2, 2019 by The Night-Owl

[Luke]

On 31/07/2019 at 22:50, Westfield Owl said:

Several key players from 15-17 have since been moved on; Hooper, Loovens, Pudil, Wallace, Hunt, Lopez, Helan.

 

Several key players from 15-17 are now in their thirties and not at their peak anymore; Lee, Fletcher, Nuhiu, Hutchinson.

 

Many sides in this division has gone from strength to strength since that era and we haven’t adapted.

 

Bit daft to think this squad are capable of top 6.  Sadly, without a decent manager and several significant transfer signings, I think we’ll be nowhere near.

Unfortunatly majority of our fans like to live in the past 

[Belfast Owl 2]

5 hours ago, WelshOwl74 said:

Unfortunatly majority of our fans like to live in the past 

 

And some like to give up and slag the team off.

[dorian gray]

On 31/07/2019 at 22:26, Spookone said:

Glad it’s not just me who remembers the highlights of CC’s time with us, he made a few strange decisions but gets far too much grief in my opinion.

 

If someone guaranteed we the new manager would produce the next 2 seasons similar to CC’s first 2 - I’d be a very happy man!

dc wouldn't, he hasn't bottomless pockets, he can't keep s*****n' money on FAILED seasons.

[dorian gray]

On 31/07/2019 at 22:37, gurujuan said:

I don’t know why Carlos felt the need to play like we did in year 2.  It was a system that perhaps allowed us to counter a lack of pace, by forming a block in the middle of the park. I hated it, and thought it unnecessary, as for the money we spent that summer, and in January, we could easily have added the pace we lacked. However, we still reached the play offs, despite the negative tactics. My main point though, was that with a fully fit squad, the play offs are doable under any competent manager who resists the temptation to rip things apart

so long as saying 'resists the temptation to rip things apart' doesn't mean more tiptap?

or getting our defenders dwelling on the ball?

playing about in our half?

or dragging ourselves forward?