unkastav Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 18 minutes ago, pazowl55 said: If it hadn't been for major injuries to Lee and Hooper Carlos would have got us up for sure. Pretty much said himself the team fell apart and didn't have a clue without them. His fish and potato analogy wasnt it. No mate it was the fish cake and wonka bar one you are thinking of 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Night-Owl Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 48 minutes ago, Plonk said: Read the article published in one of the posh papers ( can’t remember which one) on tactical periodisation. This is Jose and Carlos philosophy. It only works for two season and leaves players absolutelyfucked. It’s why they both never stay anywhere long. Two great seasons but the aftermath is horrendous and someone else’s promble. This ^ combined with short-term thinking, lack of sales and poor recruitment, is what got us into a pickle in the first place. If we make the same mistakes or keep thinking short-term, despite decent short spells it'll inevitably lead to the same pitfalls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pazowl55 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 Ultimately the way I look at it is the first 18 months or so of Carlos reign is the best we have had it for 20 odds years. So he deserves some credit for that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendoddsdadsdogsdead Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 Got to say Guru, I agree with much of your post. I have mentioned in many other threads, that we do not have a bad squad. There are a number who I feel can still deliver at this level, including Rhodes, who if we are now attempting to put the ball into the box with more regularity, will in my opinion score a shed load, it is what he is good at. Bannan, especially with Lee beside him, is a better player, but teams who just sit on him, make us predictable, and we need to find a way of playing if that happens. Fundamentally, the core of the team is still good enough to perform well, it is the depth and competition for places that we lack, and which I think will hinder us achieving a top 6 place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkastav Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 11 minutes ago, Walt said: Wilder must have thought all his birthdays had come at once when he saw the line up and formation. They were 352 / 3411 (Brook's floating) Carlos sticks Reach at left back and plays Bannan on the left of a diamond. What could possibly go wrong? The obvious - Bannan offers no cover whatsoever for Reach as he is wandering central and Utd have the freedom of the our left flank, their wingback is taking the wee wee high up the pitch and unchallenged until he meets Reach, he can then either take on Reach or pass to his mate Brook's who has joined in the fun by pulling out wide (left or right) to make it 2 v 1...and then there's JVA as centre half. The same is happening on our right flank where Hunt is left 1 v 2 with Utd's LWB and Brook's again providing the extra man. So true, I was sat at front of north watching the tactical mauling close up, like they had 2 extra men Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Horse Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) We should've been home and hosed after the 1st leg away at Hudds. They had something like a 12 year old playing in goal, think they had other injuries and their morale was low. We should've been all over them like sharks at a feeding frenzy and got the job done. But noooooooo, we play for the draw. Still flabbergasted thinking about it now. Edited July 31, 2019 by The Horse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 17 minutes ago, gurujuan said: We’d have taken it, had we bored our way past Huddersfield and Reading. As I said, I hated it, I’ve never been a win at all costs type of guy. The squad though, has been capable, when fully fit, of achieving play off form, whatever the style chosen I was responding to you 'not knowing why mate'. The reason was blindingly obvious from my point of view. We did not react to the opposition changing how they set up against us. If you remember in the second season Hooper and Fletcher were out injured and we went on a terrible run of form and looked like missing out on the playoffs. Rhodes, FF and Winalll all failed to score the goals to keep us in the play off places as they were the ones to play up front. Fletcher and Hooper return and we instantly start scoring and winning games again...we win 6 from 6 to take us into the playoffs and lose the final dead rubber with a much changed side to Fulham. "Lack of supply" did not seem to effect the Hooper Fletcher partnership...maybe Carlos relied on those two too much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Night-Owl Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 Even flipping Jos had one or two decent short spells of results. It's short term thinking that's the biggest issue. The same will happen again, if we keep thinking and planning the same way about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pazowl55 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, Walt said: I was responding to you 'not knowing why mate'. The reason was blindingly obvious from my point of view. We did not react to the opposition changing how they set up against us. If you remember in the second season Hooper and Fletcher were out injured and we went on a terrible run of form and looked like missing out on the playoffs. Rhodes, FF and Winalll all failed to score the goals to keep us in the play off places as they were the ones to play up front. Fletcher and Hooper return and we instantly start scoring and winning games again...we win 6 from 6 to take us into the playoffs and lose the final dead rubber with a much changed side to Fulham. "Lack of supply" did not seem to effect the Hooper Fletcher partnership...maybe Carlos relied on those two too much? My point I made earlier. he relied on Hooper to much. Didn't have another player who could do what he did. We suffered for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, unkastav said: So true, I was sat at front of north watching the tactical mauling close up, like they had 2 extra men The worst thing was that we'd just recently played Bolton away (and lost) and their manager told us exactly how they had exploited Bannan playing narrow and Reach at left back. He went into detail about how they had planned and put in to place their tactics about getting at our weak left hand side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurujuan Posted July 31, 2019 Author Share Posted July 31, 2019 The past, is past, and if we can learn the lessons from those mistakes, we’ll be alright. In spite of the mistakes, we’ve proven that, with a fully fit squad, we are play off material, even now. Maybe we just underestimated how key those injuries were to derailing us. I’m pretty positive that, if we can get Hector back, he was an absolute colossus, and add a bit of pace and guile with a few young loanees, that we can challenge this season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sova Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Dronfield Blue said: Whoever won that match was going up. Reading were a poor side that over achieved that year, hence Udders promoted. Not for the first time, history is being rewritten on here. Reading finished above us, did the double over us that season, and beat a very well-fancied Fulham side in the playoff semis. In the final, they only lost on penalties. So it's highly unlikely the final would have been a walkover for us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Night-Owl Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, gurujuan said: The past, is past, and if we can learn the lessons from those mistakes, we’ll be alright. In spite of the mistakes, we’ve proven that, with a fully fit squad, we are play off material, even now. Maybe we just underestimated how key those injuries were to derailing us. I’m pretty positive that, if we can get Hector back, he was an absolute colossus, and add a bit of pace and guile with a few young loanees, that we can challenge this season True and although I think along those same lines, it's difficult not to fear another pitfall or it eventually falling apart again. Especially if we get the managerial appointment wrong, if we don't get Hector back and/or don't bring in the quality loan players we need. Just fear the same sort of narrative, playing catch up followed by decent and lean spells, where we eventually come up short or fall apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurujuan Posted July 31, 2019 Author Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, The Night-Owl said: True and although I think along those same lines, it's difficult not to fear another pitfall or it eventually falling apart again. Especially if we get the managerial appointment wrong, if we don't get Hector back and/or don't bring in the quality loan players we need. Just fear the same sort of narrative, playing catch up followed by decent and lean spells, where we eventually come up short or fall apart. Really would only have ourselves to blame though, it’s crystal clear what we need to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katie melua Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 38 minutes ago, Walt said: I was responding to you 'not knowing why mate'. The reason was blindingly obvious from my point of view. We did not react to the opposition changing how they set up against us. If you remember in the second season Hooper and Fletcher were out injured and we went on a terrible run of form and looked like missing out on the playoffs. Rhodes, FF and Winalll all failed to score the goals to keep us in the play off places as they were the ones to play up front. Fletcher and Hooper return and we instantly start scoring and winning games again...we win 6 from 6 to take us into the playoffs and lose the final dead rubber with a much changed side to Fulham. "Lack of supply" did not seem to effect the Hooper Fletcher partnership...maybe Carlos relied on those two too much? Think Forestieri too was out for a long time during that era. I believe he came back just after Fletcher and Hooper returned That 3-0 win against Birmingham was the luckiest 3-0 i've witnessed. That performance was so bad, Birmingham I think hit the woodwork six or seven times in that game? Missed some glorious chances? For all of Zolas faults, had they had a striker that could put the ball in the net, they'd have battered us in that game For me, that was the start of the downfall. The unbeaten run from April limped us over. Frustration is the only way I can describe that second season. How can you outplay Newcastle home and away playing great football, yet send your fans to sleep with such dour boring football against the mighty Barnsley, Huddersfield in the play offs and Wigan away - ouch that was an eyesore 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Night-Owl Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, gurujuan said: Really would only have ourselves to blame though, it’s crystal clear what we need to do Yep but still there are numerous trap doors and variables. Such as we get off to a flyer Saturday, the managerial situation drags on. Bullen keeps the job and then eventually loses his mojo and the good feeling evaporates or the wrong appointment is made, fans get on the new guys back and call for Bullen to be re-installed or something, for example. We could on the other hand start off slow after an abject display against Reading, that seems unrepresentative of our pre-season displays. The new man comes in, gets off to a good start and the honeymoon period, gets us dreaming again, till the next dry spell or injuries or something, for example. I just feel, if we persist with the same methods, the same short term thinking, etc it will all lead to the same sort of inevitable pitfalls and outcomes. If only we hadn't been derailed by Bruce or back after Wembley we were more forward thinking and brought in the attributes we lacked. I feel after Bruce, Villa pointed the way to go by replacing him with Dean Smith, we should have been or should be more progressive, ambitious and forward thinking, like Villa were and we should go for a younger high profile manager or coach if we can't get the ready-made suitable candidates such as Hughton or Jokanović. It's ultimately short term thinking and poor recruitment in and out, that is our downfall and that will inevitably hinder us again, until we start being more pro-active with recruitment and sales, more progressive and forward thinking. Edited July 31, 2019 by The Night-Owl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the mighty wednesday Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 Agree entirely with you Guru. We have been so close and still should be so close with the quality we have in the squad. I still think that Carlos' biggest problem was the fear of losing something that was perceived to be worth defending. We got to the play off final and didn't perform. The following season's semi final was set up not to lose and especially so once we went in front. We played several games during that season where we didn't play until we had to and when we went in front tried to shut up shop. His tenure at Swansea was his Wednesday career in microcosm. They were down and out but under Carlos they got themselves back in with a chance of staying up by playing attacking football but then tried to consolidate rather than playing as if they had nothing to lose and failed to stay up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scilly owl Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 Carlos still polarises opinions doesn’t he !! There were a lot of wonderful memories associated with his tenure but he really failed ( twice) at critical times. The mystery to me is Jos...I still cannot fathom out who recommended giving him a try. I think that there was no initial outcry because none of us had heard of Carlos when he was appointed and that started brilliantly, so we were all hopeful that another anonymous appointment might work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Lestrade Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 7 hours ago, Dronfield Blue said: A lot of truth in there, but I cannot forgive Carlos for the shambles of a display against Udders in the semis of the play offs. Shocking tactics. We should have blown them away at Hillsborough after gaining a draw away. Whoever won that match was going up. Reading were a poor side that over achieved that year, hence Udders promoted. Carlos should have been sacked then. Who sacks a manager after gaining two play off seasons? Can't see to many Chairpersons doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Lestrade Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 @gurujuan Can't believe I'm saying this but agree with all your points. Will never understand why Carlos went so defensive in his second season, he just needed to tweak things after the first season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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