Venancio- Why did he fail to get a look in under CC

[Steelman]

1 hour ago, s6 owl said:

Yes but people keep saying he’s the the most successful Wednesday manager of the last 20 years despite achieving NOTHING. 

 

Biggest waste of time more like.

 

 

Anyone who genuinely believes that knows nothing about football. Iagree with you, I'm sick of hearing that garbage.

 

His entire time here has been an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a manager I've disliked more, including Dave Jones.

[Bluesteel]

1 hour ago, Stoop said:

I know what your saying, but I think people fail to mention how CC was left a very solid side by Stuart Gray and he relied on it very heavily. The likes of Westwood, Loovens, Lees, Hutchinson and Lee provided an excellent spine that he still used until he was removed

 

Yeah, but Stuart gray didn’t get that team anywhere near promotion. Carlos came in and got us to the playoffs twice. It isn’t an exact science with budgets and I don’t think those achievements should be dismissed. It was evident he would never get us top two and it became painfully apparent vs Huddersfield that he had lost his bottle by then but the injury situation gave him an excuse. It was clear from September that we had made the wrong decision in keeping him as he had run out of ideas.

 

For the sake of balance, Wallace  Bannan  FF, Reach Winnall and Hooper have been very good signings or investments taking the Grey side to the next level. The money was wasted in midfield IMO and in hindsight on Rhodes.

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Bluesteel

[adifferentgame]

4 hours ago, shezzas left peg said:

It was part due to the platform Gray built for him, we kept something like 16 clean sheets In SGs season before, we were solid, fit, had great continuity and were a team. Slowly Carlos methods sadly eroded that.. Even now we still 3 seasons on were relying on SG signings. 

 

Exactly this.

 

Gray's impact in terms of organisation and player management can't be overstated. There was a sense of togetherness, a genuine team spirit that was fostered under Gray and which carried us through Carlos' first campaign - almost all the way to the PL.

 

I'd have him back in a hearbeat, but for now I'm enjoying the early transformation under Jos. Won't hold out too much hope for this season, but if he makes it click he might make a believer of me.

[Mr Farrell]

4 hours ago, OneDavidHirst said:

Anyone who genuinely believes that knows nothing about football. Iagree with you, I'm sick of hearing that garbage.

 

His entire time here has been an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a manager I've disliked more, including Dave Jones.

 

Can't argue. The revelations that the squad were not even close to being fit, was the icing on Carlos's clusterfuck cake.

 

Jossy on the other hand seems to know what he's doing.

[Socialist_Owl]

8 hours ago, WC1Owl said:

 

Momentarily breaking my rule of not revisiting this tedious endless argument.

 

2015/16 season figures for the whole championship compared here:

 

http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/ipswich-town-stuck-in-moment.html

 

8th for gross transfer spend, 16th for wages.

 

The picture probably changed a bit in 16/17, but we also finished higher then.

 

So maybe not?

 

 

FF had a season for the ages there, like Wood at Leeds last season

 

[james o connor]

1 hour ago, Mr Farrell said:

 

Can't argue. The revelations that the squad were not even close to being fit, was the icing on Carlos's clusterfuck cake.

 

Jossy on the other hand seems to know what he's doing.

The more I hear about Carlos failures to even get the basics right (fitness , press conferences , freezing players out ) the more I Seeth that were persisted with him for so long . He really was utterly useless .

 

having said that , he’s gone, and that’s all the matters . It’s nice to actually want to go to games again and get behind the team / club. No matter how hard I tried , under Carlos I just didn’t care 

[shezzas left peg]

2 hours ago, Mr Farrell said:

 

Can't argue. The revelations that the squad were not even close to being fit, was the icing on Carlos's clusterfuck cake.

 

Jossy on the other hand seems to know what he's doing.

Simply put.... He's a poor man's sven erikson. 

[thewookieisdown]

The CC topic is becoming as tiresome as the Megson one.  There's a hell of a lot of revisionism here.  The first season was a good one, with an outcome comfortably ahead of reasonable expectations given levels of spend. 

 

The second season is more ambiguous.  Judged solely on outcome in relation to financial input, fourth place is more than defensible.  But he mishandled the playoffs, and showed more systemic weaknesses.   And much of it was boring in rather a boring way  - wins which lacked the grinding dull inevitability of 

 

No arguments about this season.  The writing was on the wall during pre-season.  He had hit a wall.  Very bad judgments.  Disengagement.

 

Other things being equal, if the new manager (who I think is fantastic so far) delivers a sixth and a fourth place the next two seasons, he will not have done at all badly.  

[Socialist_Owl]

15 minutes ago, thewookieisdown said:

The CC topic is becoming as tiresome as the Megson one.  There's a hell of a lot of revisionism here.  The first season was a good one, with an outcome comfortably ahead of reasonable expectations given levels of spend. 

 

The second season is more ambiguous.  Judged solely on outcome in relation to financial input, fourth place is more than defensible.  But he mishandled the playoffs, and showed more systemic weaknesses.   And much of it was boring in rather a boring way  - wins which lacked the grinding dull inevitability of 

 

No arguments about this season.  The writing was on the wall during pre-season.  He had hit a wall.  Very bad judgments.  Disengagement.

 

Other things being equal, if the new manager (who I think is fantastic so far) delivers a sixth and a fourth place the next two seasons, he will not have done at all badly.  

Laid zero foundation, bled zero youth, sat many, many players brought in to help, and ultimately left us in a worse state than when he found us.

 

Hope those playoff losses were worth it.  CC scorched the proverbial earth in getting there, and there's a massive cleanup job required.

[handworth52]

12 hours ago, WC1Owl said:

 

Momentarily breaking my rule of not revisiting this tedious endless argument.

 

2015/16 season figures for the whole championship compared here:

 

http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/ipswich-town-stuck-in-moment.html

 

8th for gross transfer spend, 16th for wages.

 

The picture probably changed a bit in 16/17, but we also finished higher then.

 

So maybe not?

 

 

you have to remember that club accounts are always done 9 months after as in ours come out feb 28th 2018 for accounts upto may 31st 2017 so wages and transfer spend can be very misleading ,in 2015/16 season we only just acquired fessi bannan hooper etc so there transfer fees wouldn't have been on 2015/16 and also some transfer fees aint paid all in 1 year . the real upturn in wages will be shown on latest accounts due end feb , they will show fletcher abdi Rhodes 130k a wk on the accounts and also a number of our players had big salary increases lee,lees,fessi,hunt list goes on , reason the figures above also don't look bad is club was run by milan as cheaply as possible ,we had a smaller squad then earning a huge amount less ,we are relaying on chansiri to keep pumping in 13 million a season and he hopes crowds,season tickets don't drop otherwise we are in serious serious trouble.its a shame jos couldn't have had all the money carlos has had for wages/transfer fees cause look what he has done so far with u23s and the few players what are still fit ,who were going nowhere under carlos . lets back jos and players big time to end of season ,our mentality (crowd ) has now changed, gone has the animosity towards hopeless carlos and now we move on , we all need to realise that season is not over and we must urge our players on to get 50pts 

[matthefish2002]

I don't think CC was worst manager we have had over last 20 years.

Strange to argue that when we got comfortably got 2 highest league positions in that time. Although yes he had riches all the other managers could only dream about.

 

Although signs of things going stale happened before since the -play off defeat v Huddersfield things have really gone down the pan. Ran out of ideas and no backup plan. Wonder if he knew things were not working out months ago and was just hanging round for a pay off. 

 

Basically had a good plan A but when he needed a Plan b he didn't have one.

[Quist]

In answer to the original question, he looks a defender and not a ball playing whizz. Van Aken can deliver a lovely pass and this seemed to be the criteria used. Venancio looks a defender first and foremost We played an unusual shape which does not suit some (probably majority) players. We have already seen quite a few players putting in far better performances than was thought capable as we are not asking some to do the impossible whilst allowing others time to play. It is possible that some players will not perform as well in the systems jos employs as not allowed space they were under previous system.

[adifferentgame]

3 hours ago, Quist said:

In answer to the original question, he looks a defender and not a ball playing whizz. Van Aken can deliver a lovely pass and this seemed to be the criteria used. Venancio looks a defender first and foremost We played an unusual shape which does not suit some (probably majority) players. We have already seen quite a few players putting in far better performances than was thought capable as we are not asking some to do the impossible whilst allowing others time to play. It is possible that some players will not perform as well in the systems jos employs as not allowed space they were under previous system.

 

It's almost a certainty that one or more established players will find themselves surplus to requirements or, at the least, with a diminished role to play.

 

That said, the foundations Jos is laying look to be exactly the kind of platform that allows creative forwards the freedom to go out and have some fun.

 

Will be interesting to see how he incorporates the likes of Forestieri, Hooper and Bannan into his plans, and I reckon Kieran Lee is going to thrive if we ever get him back from injury limbo.

[WC1Owl]

11 hours ago, Socialist_Owl said:

FF had a season for the ages there, like Wood at Leeds last season

 

 

Yep, and Bannan had probably the season of his career as well. But that's football.

 

There is no doubt that Carlos had run out of ideas, and many of his mistakes eventually came back to haunt him. But that's how the overwhelming majority of managerial tenures end. It's even happening to Wenger at Arsenal now, sort of. 

[dan140177]

He was probably too fit

[Dick_Turpin]

14 hours ago, james o connor said:

The more I hear about Carlos failures to even get the basics right (fitness , press conferences , freezing players out ) the more I Seeth that were persisted with him for so long . He really was utterly useless .

 

having said that , he’s gone, and that’s all the matters . It’s nice to actually want to go to games again and get behind the team / club. No matter how hard I tried , under Carlos I just didn’t care 

The good thing about a new manager is all the players getting a fresh start.

 

In theory managers and coaches know more than us and that’s often used as an argument on here when fans ask why certain players aren’t given a chance. In fact it’s just like any workplace - where personal foibles, fall outs and incompetence influence how well people progress. 

 

Great to see the the clean slate and young players getting in the squad. 

[oldishowl]

14 hours ago, thewookieisdown said:

The CC topic is becoming as tiresome as the Megson one.  There's a hell of a lot of revisionism here.  The first season was a good one, with an outcome comfortably ahead of reasonable expectations given levels of spend. 

 

The second season is more ambiguous.  Judged solely on outcome in relation to financial input, fourth place is more than defensible.  But he mishandled the playoffs, and showed more systemic weaknesses.   And much of it was boring in rather a boring way  - wins which lacked the grinding dull inevitability of 

 

No arguments about this season.  The writing was on the wall during pre-season.  He had hit a wall.  Very bad judgments.  Disengagement.

 

Other things being equal, if the new manager (who I think is fantastic so far) delivers a sixth and a fourth place the next two seasons, he will not have done at all badly.  

 

If he keeps us up this season that will be a great start because I am not convinced Carlos was going to.

 

As for the next two seasons, Jos has a hell of a lot of problems to sort out , not least injured players continuing to eat a massive chunk of his budget 

[The only way is S6]

47 minutes ago, rickygoo said:

The good thing about a new manager is all the players getting a fresh start.

 

In theory managers and coaches know more than us and that’s often used as an argument on here when fans ask why certain players aren’t given a chance. In fact it’s just like any workplace - where personal foibles, fall outs and incompetence influence how well people progress. 

 

Great to see the the clean slate and young players getting in the squad. 

 

Is it that cut & dried with the young uns though? Are they not in there just because of the injuries?

 

With 10 good players injured, those starting lately have a great chance to impress JL. When the others are fit, who's to say any of the current XI will start.

 

Best case scenario, we go into next season with 22 players all fit & firing.

 

UTO

[Dick_Turpin]

8 minutes ago, The only way is S6 said:

 

Is it that cut & dried with the young uns though? Are they not in there just because of the injuries?

 

With 10 good players injured, those starting lately have a great chance to impress JL. When the others are fit, who's to say any of the current XI will start.

 

Best case scenario, we go into next season with 22 players all fit & firing.

 

UTO

Regardless of injuries how many did Carlos even put on the bench? 

[The only way is S6]

18 minutes ago, rickygoo said:

Regardless of injuries how many did Carlos even put on the bench? 

 

I get what your saying, none, to my knowledge, but I think it's more circumstances than choice. On Tues night, we had Lees, Loovens, JVA & Hutch all out. I bet Pudil was rested too, so no choice but to use youngsters at CB.

By the way, I'm all for it. Just looking deeper as to why.