Guest owlsthatthen Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 i emailed mr mann regarding fridays nights match and he sent me a copy of the letter he sent to the f.a here it is discuss David Bernstein Chief Executive Football Association Wembley Stadium London 20 October 2012 Sheffield Wednesday v Leeds United 19 October 2012 I had the unfortunate opportunity to witness the disgraceful scenes at Hillsborough on Friday and had a good vantage point in direct sight of the trouble. I believe that it is important that the FA act promptly and very precisely on this issue. Sheffield Wednesday have a good reputation in my area, but I note from recent work I have done in schools that only a tiny proportion of children in my area ever go to professional football matches and the vast majority have never attended a match at Hillsborough or elsewhere. Yet my area has the highest involvement in junior football anywhere in England: in other words kids love football but rarely attend the professional game. I am hoping this night will neither deter them or their parents. (As a separate point of interest I am currently rectifying this mismatch by organising a programme to take 11 years olds who have never visited a match to a big game. Thankfully Friday was not on the list. I will write to you separately on this programme as it develops). I would break down the issues of concern into eleven headings: 1. The Attack on Chris Kirkland A violent attack which requires an effective FA response. I witnessed the thug slowly saunter back into the crowd and be allowed to disappear. I am certain he will be apprehended and successfully prosecuted, but the issue should not rest there. The FA must establish unambiguously a policy of zero tolerance of any fanatic going onto the pitch and this requires the club and the collective of fans to be punished in every instance. I called after the game for Leeds supporters to face a ban from a future away match and this must happen. I happen to have followed Leeds for 48 years and I had family in the Leeds end on Friday. Without question the mass of travelling fans have to take a responsibility for self policing and the FA must expect them to do so. Interestingly my young relatives disagree with me, as they are part of the decent majority, but they are wrong. The law abiding majority has a responsibility for the actions of the minority. This will help change away supporters culture, which remains an Achilles heel of the professional game. 2. Disturbing chanting by Leeds fanatics about Jimmy Saville and David Jones The Jones abuse is not new, and not limited to Leeds, and the chants glorying Saville plumbed a new depth. Neither is of course acceptable, but I note that LUFC have failed to act on the Saville chants. Where is the leadership from the club on this abuse? The Jones abuse is also predictable. Why are no abusers identified and banned or indeed prosecuted? 3. Chants glorifying the death of Leeds fans in Turkey and repeated obscene abuse of Neil Warnock These were again sadly predictable. The Turkey abuse, which solely came from the hard core of home fanatics seated next to the Leeds fans is limited to a few clubs and requires FA action. It is significant that this provocation was from adjoining fanatics. The Warnock abuse was widespread and constant and on several occasions encouraged by what I understand to be the England band. If this band is to be given access to England matches it has a responsibility to lead standards of decency in stadia not to undermine them. 4. Violence in the stands I witnessed violence in the North and Leppings Lane stands from both sets of fanatics including attacks on the stewards and police for the 10 minutes before the attack on Chris Kirkland. Of particular danger were seats hurled onto their own supporters from the top tier of Leppings Lane by Leeds fanatics. My nephew witnessed a man with a child who was sitting in front of him being hit. This seat had the metal fittings attached and a direct hit may well have been fatal. In a photograph published in the Sun newspaper my nephew can be seen fending off coins thrown from the North Stand. A barrage of missiles were exchanged and others thrown from the top tier of Leppings Lane onto the lower tier. A hard core of fanatics were allowed to purchase tickets adjoining one another. This is fundamentally dangerous and largely avoidable. I think that you should insist that for high risk matches that Sheffield Wednesday create a much bigger buffer zone between supporters and act to limit the number of “risk†supporters being so near to the away support. The proximity of thugs to one another was undeniably a factor. 5. No membership checks for Leeds United The Leeds membership system requires a membership card to be shown with a ticket. This card number is printed on tickets. This did not happen allowing anyone with a ticket into the ground. Banned thugs were therefore easily accessing tickets. Incredibly there were no Leeds stewards checking tickets, something that has always happened previously including the last Leeds away match. The FA should insist that Leeds re-introduce this system, using their own trained stewards for every away match. 6. The usual partisan comments by both managers after the match Mr Jones labelled all Leeds supporters as animals. Mr Warnock claimed that Chris Kirkland had exaggerated his attack. 7. Mr Warnock sending his players to salute their fans This incendiary action potentially incited more problems after the final whistle and was not just inappropriate but dangerous. 8 Ineffective deployment of riot police The riot police were on the touchline before the player attack. Inexplicably they were gathered in front of the Sheffield supporters with none along the touchline at the Leeds supporters end. At the time I thought this was highly problematic. 9 Insufficient stewards There was a virtual absence of stewards behind both goals, allowing constant aggressive abuse of both goalkeepers throughout. When a fanatic runs onto the pitch, stewards are meant to be deployed immediately to apprehend the individual, whether their intent is aggressive or not. The stewards were simply not available to do this. You are already aware of my concerns about inconsistent stewarding at football. This is simply another example. The stewards came across as fans and friends, which is wonderful in most matches, but it was inappropriate for this match and there is no possibility that they were in position to effectively intervene in this atmosphere. 10. A Friday night Why was a high risk match scheduled for a Friday night- the worst possible time? 11. Identification of ‘risk’ supporters How many ‘risk’ supporters were identified in advance by LUFC and Leeds police? Where were the Leeds police spotters outside the ground? Were Sheffield ‘risk’ allowed in the section of the North stand nearest the Leeds fans? You need to get answers to these questions. The usual away club police operation did not appear to be present outside the Leppings Lane end. I witnessed this for 15 minutes in advance of the game. Why was a known banned risk supporter not spotted when standing immediately behind the goal line? If the usual police risk match operation was taking place then it was well disguised and I could not recognise it. Either way it was very ineffective. Without any question there were a number of Leeds thugs who had infiltrated the ground and who are not membership card holders or regulars. Whilst some incidents including the attack were unpredictable, the general problems here were very predictable. Football appears to have learned too little from the past. In addition to other actions, I trust you will take appropriate immediate action if there is a repeat of the Saville chants at Elland Road on Tuesday and Saturday and simply requires Leeds United to play behind closed doors. Many supporters do not want the majority to be punished for the actions of the minority. I disagree I have seen some of the worst days of football in the 1970s and 1980s. This night compares with them and it is time people stood up and said we will not tolerate such abuse and violence and if my own club and my ability to watch football is temporarily impaired it will be a price worth paying to ensure a positive experience for the many small kids I am trying to introduce to the professional game. Yours sincerely John Mann JOHN MANN Member of Parliament for Bassetlaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owl.1867 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 A bigger buffer zone? I'm sure ours is already the biggest one going. The Geordies and mackems were separated by a single line of stewards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 A bigger buffer zone? I'm sure ours is already the biggest one going. The Geordies and mackems were separated by a single line of stewards! Whilst that's debatable - let's not just choose the one solitary point we disagree with Overall that's a solid letter from Mr Mann Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latemodelchild Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I am stunned by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Royds Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I think Mr Mann has changed his opinions/observations somewhat, perhaps he's been reading this forum after all. The Warnock stuff is plain banter and should not be compared with having sex with children which is just vile. I heard Warnock say on five live that he laughs it off. Whether we like it or not Warnock has a good rapport with us and I'm sure he reveals in playing the pantomime villain when he's at Hillsborough. The bigger buffer zone is a terrible idea. Other clubs have had a great deal of success by using the home sides closest to the away end as family stands. I think that this should be the way to go. I know one thing, The Sheffield Safety Committee, or whatever they are called, will sh!t themselves after reading that. Remember their reluctance to open the ground up more when we played Wycombe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebneeb Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 A bigger buffer zone? I'm sure ours is already the biggest one going. The Geordies and mackems were separated by a single line of stewards! I agree, the NW corner in addition to the white seats at the end of the North is plenty big enough. In fact, having such a big buffer zone probably increases idiotic behaviour as fans feel safer and protected. It's like a safety buffer that allows them to act like they want to fight each other, when in reality it's all just a pathetic show. Having said that, next time Leeds play at Hillsborough I'm fairly certain they'll just get the top tier. Provides a bigger buffer and no access to the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I think Mr Mann has changed his opinions/observations somewhat, perhaps he's been reading this forum after all. He sent this report before anyone contacted him didn't he ? Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akbuk Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I think it is a well written account of what occurred it is balanced and should be supported Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Royds Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 He sent this report before anyone contacted him didn't he ? Who knows? Listening to him on five live and reading that letter I suspect not. Definite change in opinion Perhaps the blue side of his constituency voiced their direct concerns to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Briscoe Inferno Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Reasonable letter and noted ommision of 'rioting' in the North Stand. Unfortunately many of these issues follow L**ds around and it is no coincidence or 'one off'. I suggest the solution Mr Mann, lies closer to home. L**ds need to get their sh1tty house in order and their anti-social followers house trained. If they cannot behave as guests then they should be denied entry on masse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurujuan Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 The letter is reasonable, an accurate, though overly dramatic version of events Have to agree with others, we already have a bigger buffer zone than most other clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richowl Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 He sent this report before anyone contacted him didn't he ? Yes but who's to say that email by the OP isn't an edited version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Yes but who's to say that email by the OP isn't an edited version? Ah right... so the OP has edited the letter flip me... what's to say you're not Mr Mann ? Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animis Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Ask yourself this, if Cawley had not assaulted Kirkland would there have been any media focus on the other 80% of Mann's observations/comments? Other than chat on boards like this would anyone have been interessted in the chants, coin/seat throwing, surging arm waving/gesticulating and knocking down the advert board etc. Indeed, would Mann have even writen that letter if it wasn't for Cawley's actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmigo Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 In the main his letter is right. I was in the North towards Leppings Lane and plenty of missiles were being thrown by our fans into the Leeds fans. The turks carrying knives song was clearly provoking a reaction from Leeds which made our fans sing it even more. Leeds were the sinners in this act but we played a part, no question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
September65 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I agree, the NW corner in addition to the white seats at the end of the North is plenty big enough. In fact, having such a big buffer zone probably increases idiotic behaviour as fans feel safer and protected. It's like a safety buffer that allows them to act like they want to fight each other, when in reality it's all just a pathetic show. Having said that, next time Leeds play at Hillsborough I'm fairly certain they'll just get the top tier. Provides a bigger buffer and no access to the pitch. Great point about the large buffer zone. They can clearly see each other and gesture and posture all they like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royalowlisback Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 He sent this report before anyone contacted him didn't he ? Mr Mann, and a response by someone with the surname of Hargreaves - this has to be a joke doesn't it. Bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiJ Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Seems like a pretty fair account of what happened. There were far too many people in f*ckwit mode on Friday night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrickyTrev Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I actually don't think that's a bad letter in all fairness although I do take issue with one point he raised and that was the buffer area between supporters. That area has been far smaller than it was on Friday night for numerous Sheffield derbies with minimal incident, this was a one off caused predominantly by a set of supporters in the Leppings Lane end who are well known to have a very large hooligan element. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest owlsthatthen Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Ah right... so the OP has edited the letter flip me... what's to say you're not Mr Mann ? not edited one bit its still in my inbox il forward you a copy if you like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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