Bannan - The "Grealish Role"

[Rev Owl]

A really thoughtful OP. Thanks.

Not very Owlstalk that.

 

Must admit my initial thought when I saw the thread title was...

Bannan isn't an annoying, cheating overhyped, self-important chuff.

 

Not that I think anyone else is either.... 

[Minton]

2018/19

 

Jack Grealish -

Games - 35 

Goals - 6

Assists - 8

 

Barry Bannan

Games - 45

Goals - 4

Assists - 12

 

Get the best out of Bannan? Already achieved methinks.

 

[Holmowl]

8 hours ago, gurujuan said:

Interesting, though I see Bannan as someone who keeps things ticking over in the middle of the park, rather than the more dynamic surging forward player Grealish is. He is wasted at the base of the midfield, and does need to play further forward, but maybe not as an attacking midfielder

 

Were you at the home game v Villa?

 

Grealish started the game quite deep and got deeper and deeper. He was regularly seen picking the ball up off the CDs and even their keeper.

 

Its a myth and a cliche that Bannan plays too deep. Like Grealish he’s a naturally intelligent footballer. He knows instinctively when to play where. They each position themselves at the point of maximum efficiency, and this changes as the match develops. Grealish, in that game, took a higher more dynamic role from about 70 minutes (when Bannan went off and we lost control btw). 

 

Bannan is an outstanding central-midfielder. Wasted left. No surprise to me whatsoever that it took Bruce 45 minutes to discover this, whereas Carlos would still be considering it now.

 

Great OP by @frastheowl. I hate the “build a team around...” threads, but he is right that Bannan is the first name on every teamsheet, so it makes perfect sense to maximise his effectiveness in our midfield.

 

 

[Inspector Lestrade]

9 hours ago, OWLERTON GHOST said:

A Cattle prod will do the job on Bannan. 

Show him the prod and he'll never ever "look back" ....

 

 

Just because it works on elephants doesn't mean it will work on footballers.

[Inspector Lestrade]

 

 

1

58 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

 

Were you at the home game v Villa?

 

Grealish started the game quite deep and got deeper and deeper. He was regularly seen picking the ball up off the CDs and even their keeper.

 

Its a myth and a cliche that Bannan plays too deep. Like Grealish he’s a naturally intelligent footballer. He knows instinctively when to play where. They each position themselves at the point of maximum efficiency, and this changes as the match develops. Grealish, in that game, took a higher more dynamic role from about 70 minutes (when Bannan went off and we lost control btw). 

 

Bannan is an outstanding central-midfielder. Wasted left. No surprise to me whatsoever that it took Bruce 45 minutes to discover this, whereas Carlos would still be considering it now.

 

Great OP by @frastheowl. I hate the “build a team around...” threads, but he is right that Bannan is the first name on every teamsheet, so it makes perfect sense to maximise his effectiveness in our midfield.

 

 

 

I don't think its a myth that he plays too deep when we are playing poorly he is often collecting the ball up just ahead of the defenders and then tries to work an opening.  

 

We need a (here comes the cliche) Carlton Palmer type player who can battle all day long in midfield allowing Bannan to dwell more on his attacking role.  Maybe with the Lee coming back, this will give Bruce more options in midfield.  I'm not convinced that Lee is the answer but at the moment he could well make a substantial difference if we can get him back to his best.

 

It's a very interesting conundrum and if Bruce can find the best role for Bannan then we will be competing strongly for promotion.  

[danblakemore]

And to add, I think we already know Bruce is a huge fan of Bannan, so it wouldn't surprise me if this policy is adopted next season. 

 

My only concern with this potential idea is we need possibly a better strike force and pace, therefore i'd look at taking Joao out of the picture for a pacey player.

 

 

[frastheowl]

10 hours ago, StudentOwl said:

As sure as eggs are eggs, someone will use the summer transfer window to highlight how Bannan would be much more effective further forward, despite not really ever playing there in his 8 year career as a professional footballer.

 

The disparity between what some fans want him to do and what he can actually do are two very different things. He is nothing like Grealish in his playing style nor his finishing. Bannan likes to sit deep and spray passes and be part of the second wave of attack rather than the initial thrust, that's his style, it's always been his style, and I've seen nothing in 3 years to suggest it never won't be his style. Grealish is someone who attacks in the first wave but from deep (and can finish). Very different players, let's not pretend Bannan's something he isn't and let's appreciate him for the talent he does have. Round pegs and round holes and all that

 

I think you're doing Bannan a great disservice, and that's come about from our inability to get him to utilise his all-round game. 

 

We've become used to him playing deep, and spraying balls around the park and looking to dictate from those areas. But let's not pretend (or forget) that there's much more to his game. In some of the best games he's had for us, he's shown his ability in and around the box. Bannan is a very underrated dribbler of the ball... he's brilliant at giving and going and moving quickly around players. 

 

In a recent interview, he professed himself that his strength was his ability to out manoeuvre players (citing as Moussa Dembele as the one player who matched him for his manoeuvrability) and glide past players. With the positions we play him in, the times he gets chance to do that is limited. 

 

I'm not saying Bannan hasn't been effective during his time here, because he most certainly has. But, my feeling is, he can be even more so. And IF Bruce can managed to eek another 10-15% out of Bannan's contributions, that could well be the difference between success and not. 

 

  

[frastheowl]

2 hours ago, Holmowl said:

 

Were you at the home game v Villa?

 

Grealish started the game quite deep and got deeper and deeper. He was regularly seen picking the ball up off the CDs and even their keeper.

 

Its a myth and a cliche that Bannan plays too deep. Like Grealish he’s a naturally intelligent footballer. He knows instinctively when to play where. They each position themselves at the point of maximum efficiency, and this changes as the match develops. Grealish, in that game, took a higher more dynamic role from about 70 minutes (when Bannan went off and we lost control btw). 

 

Bannan is an outstanding central-midfielder. Wasted left. No surprise to me whatsoever that it took Bruce 45 minutes to discover this, whereas Carlos would still be considering it now.

 

Great OP by @frastheowl. I hate the “build a team around...” threads, but he is right that Bannan is the first name on every teamsheet, so it makes perfect sense to maximise his effectiveness in our midfield.

 

 

 

To be fair, in that game, Wednesday dominated that 2nd period to the extent Villa couldn't get out of their own half. 

 

Of course, there's going to be games or periods in games, where that happens, and players naturally are forced to play deeper. The beauty with playing Bannan in such a position, is in those circumstances, he's defensively disciplined and adept enough, to be able to help the team defend resolutely. 

 

But, in the last 15 minutes or so of the game, it was evident that once Grealish began to see a little bit more of the ball in advanced areas, how much more threatening Villa were. 

[WorrallOwl17]

Bannan is nowhere near as effective as Grealish around the edge of the box. Yes Bannan has scored a couple of worldie goals this season and his eye for a pass is the best we have, but I don't think he's as consistently effective in the attacking third as Grealish is.

[fred mciver]

Great OP and we really do need ballast in midfield to support Bannon et al.

 

An Abrahams would also be nice.

[Rogerwyldesmullet]

3 minutes ago, fred mciver said:

Great OP and we really do need ballast in midfield to support Bannon et al.

 

An Abrahams would also be nice.

 

Michael Ballast - ex Chelsea?

Ann Abrahams - Donny Belles?

(Kiddin)

 

largely agree with OP, the bottom line is that Bannan - Lee - Hutch have not been good enough or fit enough for three years. It worries me that for many those three plus swapping Worldie Wallace for Worldie Reach will get us automatic. Re Onomah he was integral to getting Villa to Play-off last year and we desperately need an alternative to the handsome crunch-crock Hutch so I wouldn’t be too disappointed with Morsy but I still feel we need more athleticism than those three offer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Quist]

Bannan and Grealish are not similar types of players. Grealish is a quicker and stronger then BB and hence can play further forward. 

 

The slight changes we have made in formation have suited BB and his goal tally and assists have improved considerably since changes were made. 

[PolarNigel]

You’ll get the best out of Bannan when he stops trying to do absolutely everything whilst out on the field. 

 

Surprised he doesn’t turn up with goalkeeper gloves half the time. 

[Hougoumont]

Grealish is a better  player...and most importantly has a lot more hair than Bannan, so it's not a fair comparison.

[beloved_aunt]

15 hours ago, frastheowl said:

--------------Morsy/Hutchinson------------

-------Onomah/Lee------Bannan----------

Joao----------------------------------Reach

-----------------Fletcher---------------------

 

Going with that, it'll allow us to shed the likes of Forestieri and Rhodes. Two players we've tried to change systems and style of play for, and two players we've yet to see any consistency from. By getting rid of those two, it might allow us to upgrade the striker option, to a more dynamic striker who's more capable of playing the lone forward role than Fletcher. That side...with Joao and Reach supporting close to Fletcher, and the two midfielders running beyond, Fletcher would still be a more than adequate option. 

 

 

 

Been saying something similar for years.  I still think you'd have gotten more out of that '15 play off final team and played more of them in their best positions with that kind of formation.  Exactly the same players but:

 

          Westwood

Hunt Lees Loovens Pudil

           Hutchinson

    Lee              Bannan

Wallace                Forestieri

            Hooper

 

Going with this would've got the best out of our two dynamic CMs in Lee and Bannan, solved this issue CC constantly had of signing wingers who then didn't perform because their starting position was too deep, meant we wouldn't have had to spend a fortune on more and more strikers.

 

Why Carlos, as I guy with a history of playing attacking formations with three in the middle never even tried it is a mystery to me.

[shezzas left peg]

15 hours ago, frastheowl said:

 

It's been a long-standing, constant debate on here over the last two or three years...how do we get the best out of Bannan? Since he arrived here, he's played wide left, and in central midfield as part of a two-man partnership in 4-4-2, a three man midfield in a 5-3-2 or in a double-pivot in a 4-2-3-1 system. But despite him producing consistently good performances, there's always been a feeling that there's still more to come from him...

 

And I couldn't help but think, after watching the Playoff final yesterday, that the system Dean Smith has employed over the past three months at Villa, could well hold some advantage to ourselves and the quest to make Bannan so much more effective.

 

Villa's midfield is a fairly simple, 1-2 triangle in a 4-3-3 system. With one player holding at the base, and two more advanced midfielders given licence to go and support the three forward players.

 

At the base, Hourihane is brilliant. Despite perhaps not been known for his defensive work, his anticipation and ability to break up attacks is key. Added to that, he's calm and composed on the ball and likes to set things up from deep, by keeping things fairly simple. 

 

Ahead of Hourihane, Smith has the fortune of having two of the best midfielders in the division. The first, McGinn, a player Steve Bruce managed to bring to the club for a bargain £2.5m less than 12 months ago. For me, there aren't any better traditional box-to-box midfielders than McGinn in the Championship. I would love to see his running stats for this season, but he must be up there. He's constantly looking to make runs beyond the midfield into the half space, but he's also always in the right place defensively. 

 

And the final, most crucial part of the jigsaw, Jack Grealish. I can't say I like him...but he's a fantastic, technical player. In the past, a lot of the issues we have seen with Bannan, Grealish was also labelled with. Villa just couldn't seem to find a position for him. He's played out wide in 4-4-2 systems and as a No. 10 in 4-2-3-1 systems. Neither brought the best out of him. He's also been accused of dropping deep too often, as he looks to get involved in play and dictate things from deep. Sound familiar?

 

However, in this system, he's able to affect things in dangerous areas. He doesn't rely on others having to get him into the game, like he would playing as a No. 10 or out wide. But neither does he need to drop deep to dictate things, because Hourihane is already there doing exactly that. 

 

Grealish and Bannan have very similar playing styles. Both are exceptionally technical...good enough to play at the highest level. Both have the ability to see the game and paint pictures. Both have a deceptively quick turn of pace, and are able to glide past opponents effortlessly. And both have an eye for a cute, clever pass in dangerous areas. If either of them see enough of the ball in dangerous areas, they'll both cause opposition defences a real headache. 

 

So how realistic is it for ourselves, to be able to replicate that midfield triumvirate?

 

It might be closer than you think? Although the summer transfer window has only just re-opened, we've already been linked, quite seriously, with two midfielders. One Sam Morsy. The other Josh Onomah. Now, both of those would occupy the other two roles in that midfield very nicely. Morsy, like Hourihane, is a sitter. He breaks things up and looks to keep things simple. He might not be quite as easy on the eye, nor possess the set piece and long range attributes Hourihane has, but he'd certainly provide a very solid option at the base of the triangle. We've also got a nice added bonus of having Sam Hutchinson as a fantastic rotational option for Morsy. Much like Villa have with Glenn Whelan. 

 

Secondly, Josh Onomah. Although we've yet to see the best of Onomah yet, he's certainly a player who would class himself as a box-to-box midfielder. He has the dynamism and power to be able to play that role. I'm pretty sure when Villa signed McGinn, those fans wouldn't have expected him to become the player he has. Onomah has the skill set to provide the necessary attributes to the midfield. And let's not forget, we've also got a certain Kieran Lee potentially back in our squad next season...a player who three seasons ago was one of the Championship's best all-round box-to-box midfielders. 

 

For me, we've spent too long trying to build a system around a certain player (often Forestieri) or trying to shoe-horn our best players into a system. But we've neglected our most naturally gifted player. Bannan has been a constant in our side for three seasons...but I've never felt his role has been given the necessary detail that was required. Because he works hard, and can perform an all round game, we've tended to just expect him to do that. I personally think we've missed a trick. Let's try and build the side around him. He's a player who has never let the club down, and very rarely misses games through injury. He's dependable...but he should be so much more than just that.

 

--------------Morsy/Hutchinson------------

-------Onomah/Lee------Bannan----------

Joao----------------------------------Reach

-----------------Fletcher---------------------

 

Going with that, it'll allow us to shed the likes of Forestieri and Rhodes. Two players we've tried to change systems and style of play for, and two players we've yet to see any consistency from. By getting rid of those two, it might allow us to upgrade the striker option, to a more dynamic striker who's more capable of playing the lone forward role than Fletcher. That side...with Joao and Reach supporting close to Fletcher, and the two midfielders running beyond, Fletcher would still be a more than adequate option. 

 

 

If Nando could actually get his own ego in check and be "part of a team" would suit that right hand role far better with his running ability creativeness and eye for a goal better than joao. 

Its just getting him to realise that we don't need / a pint size centre forward Dosent work. 

 

[oldishowl]

Bannan has weaknesses like any player and you just can’t ignore them, the manager has to work around them. He disappears from high tempo games when pressed.

 

Carlos and Bruce to a lesser extent both recognised this and started him out left sometimes.

It worked ok for Carlos because it was part of our tactics which allowed Bannan and Wallace to drift inside and influence the game. 

Bruce did it once away at Millwall.

The difference was it was a one off stop gap and not part of any proper tactics. 

 

The big difference though was that Carlos still had Lee in the centre whereas Bruce had Joey.

 

I think Bruce will continue to play the 4231 formation and try and use pacy full backs to carry the ball up the pitch rather than relying on Bannan so much.

 

We can’t continue to get stuck in our own half just because Bannan keeps dropping deeper.

[IstillhateSteveBould]

1 hour ago, beloved_aunt said:

 

Been saying something similar for years.  I still think you'd have gotten more out of that '15 play off final team and played more of them in their best positions with that kind of formation.  Exactly the same players but:

 

          Westwood

Hunt Lees Loovens Pudil

           Hutchinson

    Lee              Bannan

Wallace                Forestieri

            Hooper

 

Going with this would've got the best out of our two dynamic CMs in Lee and Bannan, solved this issue CC constantly had of signing wingers who then didn't perform because their starting position was too deep, meant we wouldn't have had to spend a fortune on more and more strikers.

 

Why Carlos, as I guy with a history of playing attacking formations with three in the middle never even tried it is a mystery to me.

 

This. Could never understand it.

 

Hutch, Lee and Bannan was absolutely made to be a midfield 3.

 

The striker situation was probably the main issue with it. Signing Hooper pretty much forced us into playing with 2 strikers. 

[IstillhateSteveBould]

To be fair, I think Bruce has tried to get him to play higher up the pitch since he’s been here.

[Hitcat]

Needs to be smacked round the chops with a leather Billy if he roams deeper than the halfway line.