Have we sold our ground

[room0035]

3 minutes ago, Hitcat said:

 

Exactly. Hillsborough will just be owned by another Chansiri subsidiary. No different to Arsenal.

Chansiri does not have any business with employees that anyone can find anywhere. All of his money seems to come from his family.

 

If he sold the ground for £25m to himself he would have to pay over £2.5m in stamp duty alone. We are not going to get the figures that Derby have got for their ground the last filed account 2 years ago value the club and its land at £25m. Or a little bit more than the losses form the 2017. If the account not filed yet have lost the same and this season we again have lost £15-20m selling the ground wont cover the losses.

[bigdan2003]

3 hours ago, room0035 said:

 

Is the club losing £20m a season or is the guy in charge losing £20m a season because the club is not being managed correctly.

 

To manage a club correctly you have to maximise income and reduce costs:

 

Maximise income from sponsorship, corporate entertaining, the fans, merchandise that people want at a price they are prepared to pay, sell players at the right time or the right price

Reduce cost - get players off the wage bill not playing, loan out squad players to get first team football, make the ground an income source outside of match days.

 

Do this with any level of competences and the losses would be less, the only think I can see he is doing from the above is maximise income from the fans.

 

We need to end the excuses and get people into the club that can take us forward and address our many short comings, a director of football could be the most important signing DC has ever made and a Corporate manager who knows how to manage a football team.

 

Until wages and fees are brought under control clubs will continue to make a loss. And until the PL is brought onto a level playing field, clubs will continue to spend money it does not have in trying to get there. It won't happen of course. 

 

What's the old saying? "if you want to be a millionaire, become a billionaire and buy a football club"

 

There's a reason for that saying, it's because clubs are expensive to run with very little return unless you reach the PL.

 

Although I agree that SWFC should have managed it's budget better -  we had a flawed transfer policy in season 2 of Carlos' tenure. We took a gamble and it failed, and now we're in this situation. But, we would still have been making a loss. Whether it be 4 million or 30 million. We were making a loss way before Chansiri took over, even with average players. 

 

Not trying to exonerate EFL Clubs' responsibilities and duty of care, but i bet it's difficult for a club to manage fan expectation whilst trying to have a club that turns a profit.

 

Can you imagine what Sheffield Wednesday fans would be saying if we continued to shop in bargain basement despite having a very rich owner? I'm fairly certain people would be bemoaning lack of ambition. 

 

The main causes of the financial issues in football are being ignored by the authorities. FFP/P&S is all nice and fluffy, and makes it look like the EFL are doing the right thing.

Edited May 22, 2019 by bigdan2003

[Minton]

8 minutes ago, room0035 said:

How many of those clubs decided to do this because they had built up losses which means they will break the league rules on losses I can think of 1, maybe 2 if Villa don't get promoted.

How many did it before the rules came in to get a cash injection or build a new stadium though? The only reason more clubs aren't doing it is because they have already sold their grounds...

[Bluesteel]

The process effectively means DC gives himself 20 million (or whatever) but it is reportable on a balance sheet.

 

The concept of messing with the stadium is not palatable but as I’ve posted before, unless it remained under a separate entity at the point of future sale (which is just hypothetical at the moment) it makes no difference.

 

Meanwhile the likes of Derby and Villa crack on.

[Hitcat]

4 minutes ago, matthefish2002 said:

 

Not now but think this could cause problems in 3-4 years down the line if we are still a mid table Championship club.
Chansiri been badly advised on transfers, badly advised on giving out new contracts to players, badly advised on appointing Joss's Lukaky as manager, badly advised on kit manufacturers and badly advised on ticket prices.

Are you that confident he has not been badly advised on selling the ground to get past P&S rules?

 

Our attendances have been higher under Chansiri than anytime since the Premier League. So I don't buy the ticket price argument at all.

Yeah, we've made some bad questionable signings, but then again who doesn't? I still maintain we've been extremely unlucky with injuries. 

Couldn't give a fück about the kit. Probably the last thing on earth I'd worry about.

Luhakay was shït, granted. But he stabilised us after Carlos and was was then fired. We now have Bruce. How many managers has the chairman appointed? 3. I'd say one has been successful, one not and one a work in progress. Early signs suggest he's a goodun. Not bad for a badly advised chairman.

 

[room0035]

I wonder if DC has done the proper Due Diligence in this or if he has looked at Derby and thought - Why not.

 

If he sells the stadium for is value (as per the 2017 accounts) of £25m he will have to pay over £2.5m in stamp duty. 

 

He rents it back to the club and we are in essence a tenant, DC will have to apply for the safety certificate to hold sports events at the club not the club, all the repairs and up keep of the stadium and the compliance with Uk law will have to be applied to by DC not the club. 

 

The Owls will only be a tenant, the other issue is DC is not UK Domicile, he will have to pay an annual tax on property or land he owns.  

[mogbad]

37 minutes ago, Hitcat said:

 

99% of championship clubs make a loss. It's sustainable if you have an owner willing to sustain it. Something Chansiri has reiterated that's he's willing to do time and time again.

 

In the short to medium term he might but he doesn't have the vast wealth to continue to do so infinitum.

[elated owl]

30 minutes ago, room0035 said:

Don't get me started on that

 

Profit and Sustainability - it is within the rules to make a football club homeless by selling their ground. Who ever though this idea up to not stop this needs #@*..

Jesus Christ - he has clearly sold the ground (which he owns as part of the football club anyway) to another part of his empire (which he owns anyway). if and when he decides to sell the club - both would clearly be included as part of the same deal.

 

all this posturing about the Chairman is ridiculous - we asked for better players - he paid for them. We asked for top end finishes and attempts at PL football - we have had/got it. we asked for a change in Manager - we got it.

 

I actually take the spitting of the dummy out as a positive as he clearly cares about the place.

 

I also love the figures that are mentioned for the ground - no substance whatsoever apart from the fact they back up your bitter argument and resentment.

 

The guy owns the club, owns the ground and will only EVER make any money with us as a PL team.

[room0035]

14 minutes ago, Minton said:

How many did it before the rules came in to get a cash injection or build a new stadium though? The only reason more clubs aren't doing it is because they have already sold their grounds...

My worry with this is we are only doing this so more money can be wasted at trying to buy promotion. When what we should be doing is building a solid football ground from the bottom up and build to promotion. 

 

But if we don't get promotion the club does not go bust because we have sold the silverware off to pay for it.

 

If a business is being run badly eventually it will fail no matter who is financing it.

[steelowl]

1 minute ago, elated owl said:

Jesus Christ - he has clearly sold the ground (which he owns as part of the football club anyway) to another part of his empire (which he owns anyway). if and when he decides to sell the club - both would clearly be included as part of the same deal.

 

all this posturing about the Chairman is ridiculous - we asked for better players - he paid for them. We asked for top end finishes and attempts at PL football - we have had/got it. we asked for a change in Manager - we got it.

 

I actually take the spitting of the dummy out as a positive as he clearly cares about the place.

 

I also love the figures that are mentioned for the ground - no substance whatsoever apart from the fact they back up your bitter argument and resentment.

 

The guy owns the club, owns the ground and will only EVER make any money with us as a PL team.

other than SWFC genuinely interested what other  trading companies are part of his empire?

[bigdan2003]

11 minutes ago, room0035 said:

I wonder if DC has done the proper Due Diligence in this or if he has looked at Derby and thought - Why not.

 

If he sells the stadium for is value (as per the 2017 accounts) of £25m he will have to pay over £2.5m in stamp duty. 

 

He rents it back to the club and we are in essence a tenant, DC will have to apply for the safety certificate to hold sports events at the club not the club, all the repairs and up keep of the stadium and the compliance with Uk law will have to be applied to by DC not the club. 

 

The Owls will only be a tenant, the other issue is DC is not UK Domicile, he will have to pay an annual tax on property or land he owns.  

 

I'd imagine safety certificates, repairs etc are being done today anyway....so there won't be any real difference to the day to day activity surely?

 

 

[room0035]

Just now, elated owl said:

Jesus Christ - he has clearly sold the ground (which he owns as part of the football club anyway) to another part of his empire (which he owns anyway). if and when he decides to sell the club - both would clearly be included as part of the same deal.

 

all this posturing about the Chairman is ridiculous - we asked for better players - he paid for them. We asked for top end finishes and attempts at PL football - we have had/got it. we asked for a change in Manager - we got it.

 

I actually take the spitting of the dummy out as a positive as he clearly cares about the place.

 

I also love the figures that are mentioned for the ground - no substance whatsoever apart from the fact they back up your bitter argument and resentment.

 

The guy owns the club, owns the ground and will only EVER make any money with us as a PL team.

How has he clearly sold the ground as in order to sell the round you have to pass title to a new person/business something that currently has not been done. You can check this by checking who owns the club and ground on the land registry site.

 

The last filed accounts from the club for the year ended 31 May 2017 on page 26 states the club and grounds where valued at £22.25m and the surrounding land is valued at £1.5m basic available information for everyone  My substance is based on filed accounts from the club, presumably yours is from your working on the back of a fag packet.

[casbahowl]

11 minutes ago, room0035 said:

I wonder if DC has done the proper Due Diligence in this or if he has looked at Derby and thought - Why not.

 

If he sells the stadium for is value (as per the 2017 accounts) of £25m he will have to pay over £2.5m in stamp duty. 

 

He rents it back to the club and we are in essence a tenant, DC will have to apply for the safety certificate to hold sports events at the club not the club, all the repairs and up keep of the stadium and the compliance with Uk law will have to be applied to by DC not the club. 

 

The Owls will only be a tenant, the other issue is DC is not UK Domicile, he will have to pay an annual tax on property or land he owns.  

No he and his legal team wont have done any due diligence whatsoever!

(shakes head)

[room0035]

1 minute ago, bigdan2003 said:

 

I'd imagine safety certificates, repairs etc are being done today anyway....so there won't be any real difference to the day to day activity surely?

 

 

My point being can he apply for them Sheffield Wednesday are a trading company - none of DC business have any substance that we know of other than D Taxis without any cabs or staff and the energy drink company that has never sold any drinks.

 

Can an individual not living in the UK, apply for any of the documents you need in order to have a football club. I don't know but hopefully someone will.

[room0035]

1 minute ago, casbahowl said:

No he and his legal team wont have done any due diligence whatsoever!

(shakes head)

Well they do have a track record of it - remember the classic line he likes to use - he took some bad advice.

[Hitcat]

11 minutes ago, mogbad said:

 

In the short to medium term he might but he doesn't have the vast wealth to continue to do so infinitum.

 

I'm not sure anyone knows how much wealth he has.

[steelowl]

3 minutes ago, Hitcat said:

 

I'm not sure anyone knows how much wealth he has.

 

that's true 

[HirstWhoScoredIt]

57 minutes ago, room0035 said:

Chansiri does not have any business with employees that anyone can find anywhere. All of his money seems to come from his family.

 

If he sold the ground for £25m to himself he would have to pay over £2.5m in stamp duty alone. We are not going to get the figures that Derby have got for their ground the last filed account 2 years ago value the club and its land at £25m. Or a little bit more than the losses form the 2017. If the account not filed yet have lost the same and this season we again have lost £15-20m selling the ground wont cover the losses.

Derby's ground was also valued for far less in their accounts.

 

The WHOLE POINT of the transaction is that you sell it for far more than it is valued at in the accounts.  That is where the 'profit' comes from - the difference between the price paid and the value in the balance sheet.

 

An independent valuation will have taken place that will go something like - Wednesday sign 10 year lease to rent the land at £4m (made up figure) per annum.  Therefore value of ground is 20 x the annual rental income.  Therefore valuation in at £80m.  Chansiri buys the ground for £80m which creates £55m of profit to go through the P & L.

[pazowl55]

1 hour ago, Hitcat said:

 

Our attendances have been higher under Chansiri than anytime since the Premier League. So I don't buy the ticket price argument at all.

Yeah, we've made some bad questionable signings, but then again who doesn't? I still maintain we've been extremely unlucky with injuries. 

Couldn't give a fück about the kit. Probably the last thing on earth I'd worry about.

Luhakay was shït, granted. But he stabilised us after Carlos and was was then fired. We now have Bruce. How many managers has the chairman appointed? 3. I'd say one has been successful, one not and one a work in progress. Early signs suggest he's a goodun. Not bad for a badly advised chairman.

 

Yeah I dont get it either. A new chairman comes in Plows in vasts amounts of money in every aspect of the club. Is still looking to plow vasts amounts of money in and still he gets alot of criticism. 

 

The goings on at other clubs make you realise how lucky we actually are to have a chairman willing to constantly fund the club with his own money.

[marcx666]

47 minutes ago, Hitcat said:

 

I'm not sure anyone knows how much wealth he has.

It's OT, someone on here will know, just to try and prove their point