Carlos vs Stuart Gray

[Captain Sl-OWL-ly]

1 hour ago, OWLERTON GHOST said:

Fantasy  Brian Clough (Brainwashed by dad - he saw him as a player I saw him as a manager & Peter Taylor)

Reality I would go Ryan Giggs in hope everything Sir Alex taught him would rub off with everything Wednesday ...

Great First Job for him me thinks ?

 

Yet some slag Francis off for trying to be a “Brian”....

 

Get real bud...

[Ronio]

Always liked Gray.  

 

Had a great eye for talent, bringing in the likes of Westwood, Hutchinson and Lees.  

 

I thought he deserved at least another year with some money behind him.  

[markowl]

6 hours ago, Quist said:

Stuart Gray was excellent coach did a remarkable job in circumstances. In last year we sold Antonio and brought in Stevie May so had effectively negative transfer budget. he also brought in a better quality of players has had better contacts in game. When roeder cam in the rubbish followed. 

The rubbish of finishing in the play offs two seasons running?

[Jim]

Gray did a decent job but he wouldn't have done any better than Carlos has IMO. Mandaric's choice of managers/head coaches have all pushed us forward including Gray. Carlos has been a decent first appointment for Chansiri. His second appointment whenever that maybe will be his most important appointment as it will probably make or break his project here?

[OWLERTON GHOST]

14 minutes ago, Captain Sl-OWL-ly said:

 

Yet some slag Francis off for trying to be a “Brian”....

 

Get real bud...

Please enlighten me here where have I mentioned Trevor Francis in my post ?

It was a reply to a totally different question nothing to do with Trevor Francis...

But if you really" feel the need" Trevor Francis in my opinion was a great player for Wednesday and a great Manager too I have experienced the greatest times as a fan whilst he was a player and a manager so I can get "Real"during his tenure thanks very much ....

[TomtheOwl95]

6 hours ago, ramone said:

I loved Stuart Gray. An absolute  gentleman. Don’t believe the ‘he was sacked because we want attacking football’. Surely we’re not all that naive. He was sacked because DC wanted his own man

This. I really don't know where this idea about not being attacking enough got Stuart the sack came from. Once again a case of some fans being economical with the truth to suit a point.

[StudentOwl]

1 minute ago, TomtheOwl95 said:

This. I really don't know where this idea about not being attacking enough got Stuart the sack came from. Once again a case of some fans being economical with the truth to suit a point.

I remember the club making a big deal about the new appointment bringing entertaining, attacking football back to the Hillsborough crowd. Even just considering that, can you honestly say that particular MO has been completed? I sure as hell don't think so. 

 

My main point is that we are demonstrably lacking in any attacking intent, so much so that we're barely managing any more goals per game than we did with a supposedly poor manager with a definitely poor squad and undoubtedly significantly less talented attackers. And that with all this in mind... where is any of the accountability? 

[TomtheOwl95]

10 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

I remember the club making a big deal about the new appointment bringing entertaining, attacking football back to the Hillsborough crowd. Even just considering that, can you honestly say that particular MO has been completed? I sure as hell don't think so. 

 

My main point is that we are demonstrably lacking in any attacking intent, so much so that we're barely managing any more goals per game than we did with a supposedly poor manager with a definitely poor squad and undoubtedly significantly less talented attackers. And that with all this in mind... where is any of the accountability? 

If he'd have been sacked for his style of play (which was forced upon him due to the squad he had and the lack of any money) he'd have gone on the Monday after the Watford game. It was clear the club were sticking with him until they had the meeting regarding transfers and they decided to part company. As for the statements about style of play after he'd gone, they were hardly going to come out and say "we want a really defensive coach who will try to nick it 1-0" would they? Every club whenever they change a manager say's they want to be entertaining.

 

As for whether they delivered what they said, yeah I'd say they did. If you can't enjoy a season like Carlos' first after so long of scrapping around the bottom and mid table in this division then football isn't for you. As for the current situation it's a whole myriad of things of different things that are behind why we aren't where we should be. Not all of it is down to the manager.

[beano]

7 hours ago, StudentOwl said:

Well I find myself of a Friday afternoon with a bottle of beer in hand and I discover that the Ipswich result marks Carlos Carvalhal's 110th league game in charge of the Owls. I figure given the roundish number of the occasion, coupled with the perceived negative forward play, it's about time to have a look at compare CC with another perceived connoisseur of "defense first" football, Stuart Gray.  

 

In Stu's 67 games in charge of us as full-time manager, we managed 74 goals. That's an average of 1.10 goals per game. 

In Carlos' 110 league games in charge of us, we've managed 149 goals. That's an average of 1.35 goals per game

 

Gray's somewhat measly contribution to an attacking game came with an attacking core of Stevie May, Atdhe Nuhiu, Chris Maguire etc and resulted in us being a solid Championship side- all on a relatively shoestring budget 

Now consider the expenditure that we have spent on attacking players. Forestieri, Rhodes, Hooper, Joao, Winnall, Fletcher... all personnel we wouldn't have dreamed of seeing in Wednesday colours with Gray in charge. And for what? An extra goal every four games. 

 

Gray got sacked for perceived lack of attacking play, and 1.1 gpg is an extremely justified reason to let a manager go, wish them all the best and look for a replacement that's a bit more exciting. But I cannot believe the seeming lack of accountability for what has been one gigantic rooster up when it comes to seeing attacking play, all while having personnel that should be more than capable of scoring goals to a greater extent than Stevie May, Atdhe Nuhiu etc. 

 

I mean consider it... only one more goal every four games. If I make the hypothetical proposition that Stuart Gray had been able to make the same signings CC has- Reach, Fox, Hunt, Bannan, Wallace etc but had kept the same front line (Bus, Keane, Nuhiu, May etc.)- we wouldn't be scoring a similar number of goals? Because I'm struggling to say that that's not a reasonable suggestion. And I think that says a lot about our style of play.

 

Stuart Gray was sacked for not being attacking. For some reason it's a different story for CC. 

I'd be more interested in seeing how CCs last 67 games compare with Gray's reign.

 

Pretty confident that the average goals per game would drop to a level not too dissimilar.

[0114]

Stuart Gray was rightly sacked, we won 5 times at Hillsborough that last season. On paper he did a great job because of the budget he had, but that entire season I've had to blank out of my mind. 

 

Carlos in my opinion needs replacing, not because he is a bad manager... but he has shown he is not adaptable and now things have plain and simply gone stale. Get someone new in, sell a few players, build something new. It's not all about chucking millions of pounds on players to challenge

 

[toppOwl]

6 hours ago, Stoop said:

Carlos is still using half of Stuart Gray’s team

......and half his hair.

[toppOwl]

7 hours ago, room0035 said:

Stuart Gray had to sell players because his Chairman Milan told him too, we were not playing Antonio so he moved to Forest, Stevy May was the gambles Gray had to take to take a rough diamond and try and make a player of him. The same thing he did with an injury prone player with a dodgy knee but that one worked out for us, Stevy May didn't

 

Gray work in the transfer market and especially in the loan market was unbelievable with the budget he worked with compare to the dross Carlos has brought in Benik Afobe - i seem to remember this guy signing for someone for £10m, Connor Wickham, Sam Hutchinson, Royston Drenthe, Lewis Baker, Lewis McGugan.

 

then compare these to Carlos's loan signing Lopez, Mcmanaman, Buckley, Venancio, McGeady.

 

Then look at our current team, half of the players Stuart signed or gave a first team chance in Palmer, Westwood, Lees, Loovens, Lee, Hutch, Nuihu. 

 

Tell me how with any money to spend or a chairman who supported him in the transfer market would Stuart Gray not have made us eventually a Premier League team all be it not the buccaneer team we had first season under Carlos. But Stuart i believe would have built a team that lasted as opposed to Carlos's that is self imploding.

 

Antonio wasn't sold because we were not playing him he went because we hadn't a pot to pee in and he had ambition to better himself. 

 

Did Afobe look like a £10m player at S6 - no, not at all and Lewis Baker was a terrible loan signing.

 

Why do you highlight Lopez as a bad CC signing he was a great player who we could do with now.

 

Gray didn't sign Lee, Dave Jones did.

 

If your going to type an incoherent post full of nonsense at least let it have some truth in it.

[StudentOwl]

38 minutes ago, TomtheOwl95 said:

If he'd have been sacked for his style of play (which was forced upon him due to the squad he had and the lack of any money) he'd have gone on the Monday after the Watford game. It was clear the club were sticking with him until they had the meeting regarding transfers and they decided to part company. As for the statements about style of play after he'd gone, they were hardly going to come out and say "we want a really defensive coach who will try to nick it 1-0" would they? Every club whenever they change a manager say's they want to be entertaining.

 

As for whether they delivered what they said, yeah I'd say they did. If you can't enjoy a season like Carlos' first after so long of scrapping around the bottom and mid table in this division then football isn't for you. As for the current situation it's a whole myriad of things of different things that are behind why we aren't where we should be. Not all of it is down to the manager.

Of course it isn't, but after 110 games I think it's fair to say we can have a fairly accurate assessment of what sort of style a Carlos Carvalhal side has.

 

Be honest... if I said to you two and a half years ago that the manager to succeed Gray would have a strikeforce of Rhodes, Hooper, Fletcher and Forestieri and only manage 1 extra goal every 4 games played, you would have been devastated at our inability to utilise such attacking options. In fact I'd argue you would have said that's unacceptable. 

 

And at the risk of diluting this message, I will just add on that there's no point saying "Well think about what we've had recently, really it's OK". That's loser talk. It's the here and now that matters, and the here and now sees us charging the most expensive tickets in the league for the same sort of goal return as a fairly dull Gray side. Though of course for what it's worth CC's first season was absolutely phenomenal, and that should never be forgotten. 

[TomtheOwl95]

2 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

Of course it isn't, but after 110 games I think it's fair to say we can have a fairly accurate assessment of what sort of style a Carlos Carvalhal side has.

 

Be honest... if I said to you two and a half years ago that the manager to succeed Gray would have a strikeforce of Rhodes, Hooper, Fletcher and Forestieri and only manage 1 extra goal every 4 games played, you would have been devastated at our inability to utilise such attacking options. In fact I'd argue you would have said that's unacceptable. 

 

And at the risk of diluting this message, I will just add on that there's no point saying "Well think about what we've had recently, really it's OK". That's loser talk. It's the here and now that matters, and the here and now sees us charging the most expensive tickets in the league for the same sort of goal return as a fairly dull Gray side. Though of course for what it's worth CC's first season was absolutely phenomenal, and that should never be forgotten. 

I take issue with that particular point to be honest but can't really be bothered to go into it. All I will say is I don't think anybody's happy with the current league position but it's still better than what was going on before.

 

As for the current lack of goals, it's simple we aren't creating enough and we seem to need to take an extra touch every time we get within sight of the goal. We all know this has to improve but I don't think going over Stuart Gray's departure will help discover an answer to be honest. I will point out here I was gutted when Stuart got the sack and felt he deserved a go at it with some money and I said that Carlos wasn't a good appointment. I'm happy to admit I was wrong even if now isn't exactly going to plan.

[legendaryswan]

Gray did an outstanding job during his time here,made the best of what hed got,acquired some very usefull freebies,and played to their strengths,he ground out the results fair enough,but cosidering his budget he worked wonders.

Switching Lee to MF showed sound judgement of his players and their ability.

 

[CrosbyKitchens]

1 minute ago, legendaryswan said:

Gray did an outstanding job during his time here,made the best of what hed got,acquired some very usefull freebies,and played to their strengths,he ground out the results fair enough,but cosidering his budget he worked wonders.

Switching Lee to MF showed sound judgement of his players and their ability.

 

This, you can argue about Carlos all you want but nothing will change the fact that Stuart Gray did a terrific job with what he had to work with.

[ReginaldD]

7 hours ago, room0035 said:

Stuart Gray had to sell players because his Chairman Milan told him too, we were not playing Antonio so he moved to Forest, Stevy May was the gambles Gray had to take to take a rough diamond and try and make a player of him. The same thing he did with an injury prone player with a dodgy knee but that one worked out for us, Stevy May didn't

 

Gray work in the transfer market and especially in the loan market was unbelievable with the budget he worked with compare to the dross Carlos has brought in Benik Afobe - i seem to remember this guy signing for someone for £10m, Connor Wickham, Sam Hutchinson, Royston Drenthe, Lewis Baker, Lewis McGugan.

 

then compare these to Carlos's loan signing Lopez, Mcmanaman, Buckley, Venancio, McGeady.

 

Then look at our current team, half of the players Stuart signed or gave a first team chance in Palmer, Westwood, Lees, Loovens, Lee, Hutch, Nuihu. 

 

Tell me how with any money to spend or a chairman who supported him in the transfer market would Stuart Gray not have made us eventually a Premier League team all be it not the buccaneer team we had first season under Carlos. But Stuart i believe would have built a team that lasted as opposed to Carlos's that is self imploding.

haven't read the whole thread too see if anyone else has mentioned it but one thing worth take into account when trying to take a balanced view of both  their recruitment is that both worked under a very different loan system. 

 

When Gray was here he could go and get Wickham etc on an emergency loan no such luck for us now. Which is why we see more so the plan of 2 players for every rather being short as in the past. Thus less reliant on loans for this logical reason.

 

However I agree to an extent we need to be making good use of the loan market as others have done. 

 

 

[Buford T. Justice]

9 hours ago, ramone said:

I loved Stuart Gray. An absolute  gentleman. Don’t believe the ‘he was sacked because we want attacking football’. Surely we’re not all that naive. He was sacked because DC wanted a yes man

 

Fixed it for you 

[jamiejohn]

You can't really argue that everything that went before Carlos is irrelevant it's all about the here and now in a thread comparing him to another manager who you then say did better with the resources at the time

going over old ground gets you nowhere, something needs to change and it's the future not the past 

[matthefish2002]

Didnt feel sorry for Gray when he got sacked. Will have got a good pay off and knows how precarious being a football manager is.

But got about 85% out of the resources avilable to him.

CC has got about 40%