Sheffield Wednesday fan banned for life for racism

[thewookieisdown]

11 minutes ago, Watson said:

 

 

Where do you stand on freedom of expression?

You asked it of someone else but - 

(a) Die Piggy Die is vile.  As is racist chanting, "incl I'd rather be...".  If it were my club to run, I would ban anyone chanting offensive stuff like that.  For life?  Possibly.  Public apologies might change that.  I'd judge a 17yo differently from a 50yo.  Ban not fully enforceable?  Doesn't matter.

 

This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  I can believe there is a freedom to sing Die Piggy Die (but see below) and also that anyone signing it should be banned from Hillsborough.  (Analogy: I would support Labour in expelling Ken Livingstone for anti-semitic comments.  In law those comments were ok, and he should be free to say them.)

 

(b) On freedom of speech, I think it depends. Freedom of speech isn't absolute.  I do not have the right to write to your employer accusing you of fraud if I have no evidence.

 

If you sing "Die..." in a closed pub full of Wednesday fans - well, you're not going to be my friend.  A matter for the law?  Possibly not.  But the class of things that shouldn't be said is much wider than the class of things that should be banned.  But then take another extreme.  A United fan's funeral.  Alright in law to sing it there?  No, of course not, and old fashioned breach of the peace is a perfectly sensible common law offence to deal with actions most ordinary people would deem beyond the pale.  At a game?  I could live with it being unlawful.  I certainly think as between breach of the peace and more serious incitement offences there isn't a massive amount of space for the kind of people who do this sort of thing to operate. Sympathy is limited.  I am no sure this sort of thing is quite what JS Mill had in mind.

 

[asteener1867]

9 minutes ago, Watson said:

 

 

Artistic license

 

Yea..same as freedom of expression that isn't it?

The f.ookin' pub doesn't exist....same as half my scenarios don't exist..and the same as "My Asian friend.." "Some of my best friends are black" doesn't exist..

All you have to do is take folk as you find 'em

Race creed nor colour ..shouldn't exist ..should it? 

A bloke sang a f,ookin' stupid song on a train...he's stupid, uneducated, and ignorant...Life ban?..nah...

Sit the daft f.ooker down with a sensible Pakistani bloke...let him be educated...

All of a sudden you find you have  the same hopes, fears, and worries that the bloke with brown skin has...How in the name of f.ook does that happen?

Cos when push comes to Punjab...We are all basically the same

Edited November 15, 2017 by asteener1867

[Pulsar]

13 minutes ago, asteener1867 said:

Freedom of expression is simply the right to express an opinion isn't it?

Its a bit of a problem if you took it to court....The bloke singing 

"I'd rather be a Paki than a Blade"..could in all honesty plead..."Well I actually would .."Rather be a Paki than a Blade"...so I thought i'd sing about it.

.Where do you go....?

"I'd rather be a hammer than a nail"..Of you f,ookin' go yer honour...

Its racist...I know it is, You know it is..but the law?..."ooooh ...good point"

So your question "Where do you stand on freedom of expression"..means f.ook all does it?

 

 

Most of your (purely football related) posts are a joy to read.

I usually refrain from political or racist related topics as they frequently dissolve into bitter infighting and one upmanship but alas, i got involved with this thread earlier.

Your posts on this subject pretty much sum up how i feel and try and convey with lesser success than your posts.

 

Unfortunately the judicial system rarely manages to find the fair punishment level or indeed the consistency on these matters.

 

A bit like the referees we get

 

 

 

[Costello 77]

1 minute ago, Pulsar said:

 

Most of your (purely football related) posts are a joy to read.

I usually refrain from political or racist related topics as they frequently dissolve into bitter infighting and one upmanship but alas, i got involved with this thread earlier.

Your posts on this subject pretty much sum up how i feel and try and convey with lesser success than your posts.

 

Unfortunately the judicial system rarely manages to find the fair punishment level or indeed the consistency on these matters.

 

A bit like the referees we get

 

 

 

You had to bring refs into it... FFS

[Inspector Lestrade]

3 minutes ago, thewookieisdown said:

You asked it of someone else but - 

(a) Die Piggy Die is vile.  As is racist chanting, "incl I'd rather be...".  If it were my club to run, I would ban anyone chanting offensive stuff like that.  For life?  Possibly.  Public apologies might change that.  I'd judge a 17yo differently from a 50yo.  Ban not fully enforceable?  Doesn't matter.

 

This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  I can believe there is a freedom to sing Die Piggy Die (but see below) and also that anyone signing it should be banned from Hillsborough.  (Analogy: I would support Labour in expelling Ken Livingstone for anti-semitic comments.  In law those comments were ok, and he should be free to say them.)

 

(b) On freedom of speech, I think it depends. Freedom of speech isn't absolute.  I do not have the right to write to your employer accusing you of fraud if I have no evidence.

 

If you sing "Die..." in a closed pub full of Wednesday fans - well, you're not going to be my friend.  A matter for the law?  Possibly not.  But the class of things that shouldn't be said is much wider than the class of things that should be banned.  But then take another extreme.  A United fan's funeral.  Alright in law to sing it there?  No, of course not, and old fashioned breach of the peace is a perfectly sensible common law offence to deal with actions most ordinary people would deem beyond the pale.  At a game?  I could live with it being unlawful.  I certainly think as between breach of the peace and more serious incitement offences there isn't a massive amount of space for the kind of people who do this sort of thing to operate. Sympathy is limited.  I am no sure this sort of thing is quite what JS Mill had in mind.

 

 

 

I was asking a question not making a statement  

 

 

[Pulsar]

1 minute ago, Costello 77 said:

You had to bring refs into it... FFS

 

I always feel obliged to lighten the mood when these subjects arise.

 

Call it immaturity but i'd rather be naive than a blade

 

[asteener1867]

7 minutes ago, Pulsar said:

 

Most of your (purely football related) posts are a joy to read.

I usually refrain from political or racist related topics as they frequently dissolve into bitter infighting and one upmanship but alas, i got involved with this thread earlier.

Your posts on this subject pretty much sum up how i feel and try and convey with lesser success than your posts.

 

Unfortunately the judicial system rarely manages to find the fair punishment level or indeed the consistency on these matters.

 

A bit like the referees we get

 

 

 

Its exactly like the refs we get mate...thats a comparison I wish I'd made...Open to interpretation...

[Costello 77]

2 minutes ago, Pulsar said:

 

I always feel obliged to lighten the mood when these subjects arise.

 

Call it immaturity but i'd rather be naive than a blade

 

Contemptible. You wouldn't catch me doing it....btw do you find yourself incredibly motivated after watching war of the worlds?

Do you have a compulsion to put FFS all the time?  FFS.

 

 

[Guest Theboylangers]

18 minutes ago, thewookieisdown said:

You asked it of someone else but - 

(a) Die Piggy Die is vile.  As is racist chanting, "incl I'd rather be...".  If it were my club to run, I would ban anyone chanting offensive stuff like that.  For life?  Possibly.  Public apologies might change that.  I'd judge a 17yo differently from a 50yo.  Ban not fully enforceable?  Doesn't matter.

 

This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  I can believe there is a freedom to sing Die Piggy Die (but see below) and also that anyone signing it should be banned from Hillsborough.  (Analogy: I would support Labour in expelling Ken Livingstone for anti-semitic comments.  In law those comments were ok, and he should be free to say them.)

 

(b) On freedom of speech, I think it depends. Freedom of speech isn't absolute.  I do not have the right to write to your employer accusing you of fraud if I have no evidence.

 

If you sing "Die..." in a closed pub full of Wednesday fans - well, you're not going to be my friend.  A matter for the law?  Possibly not.  But the class of things that shouldn't be said is much wider than the class of things that should be banned.  But then take another extreme.  A United fan's funeral.  Alright in law to sing it there?  No, of course not, and old fashioned breach of the peace is a perfectly sensible common law offence to deal with actions most ordinary people would deem beyond the pale.  At a game?  I could live with it being unlawful.  I certainly think as between breach of the peace and more serious incitement offences there isn't a massive amount of space for the kind of people who do this sort of thing to operate. Sympathy is limited.  I am no sure this sort of thing is quite what JS Mill had in mind.

 

Very good, well reasoned argument and you also took the emotion out of an emotive subject.

[Jennz]

13 hours ago, @owlstalk said:

Disagree

This generation of mad racists who were effectively educated by the Sun and Daily Mirror and their parents will die out

Schools these days teach children to respect others no matter how different and children are way wiser (and don't read tabloids)

 

I admire your optimism I really do AND I hope you're right, I can't see it happening myself not in anyone alive today lifetime anyway, maybe in 5, 6 hundred years...maybe.

 

Still interested in your arguing for racism remark earlier....what was meant by that exactly?

[Halifax Owls]

13 hours ago, @owlstalk said:

 

This generation of mad racists who were effectively educated by the Sun and Daily Mirror and their parents will die out

 

I wish I was as tolerant as you....

[Dick_Turpin]

4 hours ago, asteener1867 said:

My Asian friend.." "Some of my best friends are black" doesn't exist..

So we all live in white only worlds do we? 

[Geedee]

19 hours ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

Quite true (last line)

 

But if we think it will die out we're kidding ourselves on.

Racisim is learnt. Kids aren't rascist. Toddlers aren't rascist.

It is picked up in the home and  unless these mad racisits you speak of that read the Sun stop having children  (and without getting into a Social and economical Geography debate - that is very unlikely) ....I supsect it will carry on.

 

Other racist thoughts and negative predudices can be picked up in first hand personal life experience and then magnify through isolation.... and are sadly, passed on. 

 

 

 

 

Not all bigotry and hate is what children learn. I think that sadly kids pretty naturally pick on the minority, it might not necessarily be race, it can be the kid with red hair, the small kid, the quiet kid, the poor kid etc 

[asteener1867]

9 hours ago, rickygoo said:

So we all live in white only worlds do we? 

Nah

We live in world without straw men mate and "Artistically licensed " premises 

 

[Dick_Turpin]

1 hour ago, asteener1867 said:

Nah

We live in world without straw men mate and "Artistically licensed " premises 

 

Whatever the wider issues - and the riddles! - I can’t bring myself to feel sorry for the particular @rsehole who got banned. He’s old enough to know better. 

[SiJ]

Anyone sticking up for this absolute moron should be embarrassed. 

 

Most people are able to attend football matches without racially abusing someone. 

 

Never ceases to amaze me on here the amount of times we will get a minority of disgruntled white men seemingly upset at the fact that a racist, ignorant moron has been correctly punished

[Lord Snooty]

7 hours ago, Geedee said:

Not all bigotry and hate is what children learn. I think that sadly kids pretty naturally pick on the minority, it might not necessarily be race, it can be the kid with red hair, the small kid, the quiet kid, the poor kid etc 

 

True. Pack mentality. 

Which could also be attributed to the singing of songs.

Have any of the others involved in this case been banned or was the chap on his own?

If there was a group and he's the only one to be punished I expect that there will be a growing resentment in him.

[Hack-Abusi]

On 14/11/2017 at 22:16, Big Ron's Sovereign said:

 

It’s still a shorter version of country’s name.

Is calling somebody from Scotland a Scot racist? A Brit? Dane? Aussie?

Just because some Neanderthals use the P word derogatory does not make it racist for everybody else.

 

I spend half my life in Ireland, have Irish relatives etc. When I’m in England, many people refer to my friends, family and myself (even though I’m English) as Micks, Paddy’s etc but this doesn’t get deemed as racist ...

Not sure i agree with this .. I've always believed that Ch*nk or P*ki is not a shortened version of a countries name and that its a negative, offensive connotation for Chinese and Pakistani people. Its nothing like saying Brit, or Scot or a Dane. No way. These are words orginally derived to be offensive to races as the N word or others etc ..

 

But then this probably ties in with what asteener said about educating people .. should never be used, i mean whats up with just saying Pakistani or Chinese or whatever

 

17 hours ago, asteener1867 said:

Football fans sometimes chant sh *t they either don't mean, or understand...

Life ban?.....

or f.ookin' educate

Which do you think would serve us best in the future?

Really good point this actually ..

[Eightace]

30 minutes ago, Hack-Abusi said:

Not sure i agree with this .. I've always believed that Ch*nk or P*ki is not a shortened version of a countries name and that its a negative, offensive connotation for Chinese and Pakistani people. Its nothing like saying Brit, or Scot or a Dane. No way. These are words orginally derived to be offensive to races as the N word or others etc ..

 

But then this probably ties in with what asteener said about educating people .. should never be used, i mean whats up with just saying Pakistani or Chinese or whatever

 

Really good point this actually ..

People shouldn't be saying these words, especially at a football match.

It isn't like saying Brit.

Saying that, I can't help but think it is name calling and does name calling deserve a life ban? It wasn't even directed at someone of that origin for the purpose of harrassing or intimidating.

Racism is bad, we know that. But has nobody ever committed a worse sin than singing that song?

Obviously the fan was wrong but maybe didn't know it was That wrong.

Ban yes but for life, I'm not convinced.

I say this as someone with a lot of Muslim friends. If that counts for owt.

 

[PopePiusX]

30 minutes ago, Eightace said:

People shouldn't be saying these words, especially at a football match.

It isn't like saying Brit.

Saying that, I can't help but think it is name calling and does name calling deserve a life ban? It wasn't even directed at someone of that origin for the purpose of harrassing or intimidating.

Racism is bad, we know that. But has nobody ever committed a worse sin than singing that song?

Obviously the fan was wrong but maybe didn't know it was That wrong.

Ban yes but for life, I'm not convinced.

I say this as someone with a lot of Muslim friends. If that counts for owt.

 

 

Given that there's an absolute lack of contrition in his response, I'd say that his main aim is trying his best to get away with it. I am not upset about not having to share seating space with him.

 

The thing is, we're not talking in absolutes here; x being wrong but y being more wrong does not mean x is right.