The Future of Hillsborough Stadium

[Sham67]

5 minutes ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

Yes, we did, but that was still in a world where people had either moved on, weren't thinking about it anymore, or were happy to just think it was all their fault anyway.

 

Like it or not, the conversation around it IS different now. Since we last played Liverpool, the conversation has been dragged back up, re-heated, fresh blame pointed, narrative angles completely changed. The conversation around the disaster is NOT the same now as it was in the 90's. 

 

Honestly, I think the next time we play Liverpool will be an absolute nightmare for us - especially if it's at Hillsborough. There will be drama and it will feel like our club is being attacked by some quarters. The media will whip it right up. 

Paranoid delusion.

[Utah Owl]

1 minute ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

This is the thing. It wouldn't surprise me if the numbers have already been crunched on this, with the answer being that it's cheaper to move.

 

DC has owned SWFC since 2015 and owned the stadium outright since 2019/2020 (ish? When was it he bought the ground?). In that time he's bought a pitch that isn't being maintained properly and a scoreboard. If Wednesday's future was at Hillsborough, wouldn't he have gone further?

 

When did the Wednesdayite car park get sold for that development? For me that's one of the bigger signs. There's no way the club couldn't have seen a use for that land and bought it if the long term was developing Hillsborough. 

Have to confess that was a huge opportunity missed and was much discussed on here at the time.

[Sham67]

Just now, Utah Owl said:

Have to confess that was a huge opportunity missed and was much discussed on here at the time.

Why? What could be done there that would be of benefit to the club?

[Guest DoesJackHunt]

2 minutes ago, Sham67 said:

Why? What could be done there that would be of benefit to the club?

Could have had a new Wednesday bar with those cool beer pumps that fill your pint from the bottom like they have at Spurs. 

[Guest DoesJackHunt]

3 minutes ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

Again, I'm not saying I think it's right that that's the case.

 

An entire generation of Liverpool fans have grown up since we last played them and all they know is the result of the latest investigations.. Cameron stood up in parliament saying it wasn't their fault.. media u-turns and falling over themselves to cover any aspect of blame OTHER than Liverpool fans..

 

You might think I'm being paranoid, but you're the one whose utterly delusional if you don't think Wednesday v Liverpool at Hillsborough won't have a nasty edge to it by an exploitive media. I wouldn't fancy policing it, put it that way. 

Neither will SYP 

[Sham67]

5 minutes ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

Again, I'm not saying I think it's right that that's the case.

 

An entire generation of Liverpool fans have grown up since we last played them and all they know is the result of the latest investigations.. Cameron stood up in parliament saying it wasn't their fault.. media u-turns and falling over themselves to cover any aspect of blame OTHER than Liverpool fans..

 

You might think I'm being paranoid, but you're the one whose utterly delusional if you don't think Wednesday v Liverpool at Hillsborough won't have a nasty edge to it by an exploitive media. I wouldn't fancy policing it, put it that way. 

Risible.  Do you know any actual Liverpool fans or is it all projection.

[soldierboyblue]

7 minutes ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

Again, I'm not saying I think it's right that that's the case.

 

An entire generation of Liverpool fans have grown up since we last played them and all they know is the result of the latest investigations.. Cameron stood up in parliament saying it wasn't their fault.. media u-turns and falling over themselves to cover any aspect of blame OTHER than Liverpool fans..

 

You might think I'm being paranoid, but you're the one whose utterly delusional if you don't think Wednesday v Liverpool at Hillsborough won't have a nasty edge to it by an exploitive media. I wouldn't fancy policing it, put it that way. 

We played at Everton almost immediately after the disaster in 89 - There was trouble but nothing out of the normal for the 80s. So I'm at a loss to see where your rationale for all this comes from

[CircleSeven]

20 minutes ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

Yes, we did, but that was still in a world where people had either moved on, weren't thinking about it anymore, or were happy to just think it was all their fault anyway.

 

Like it or not, the conversation around it IS different now. Since we last played Liverpool, the conversation has been dragged back up, re-heated, fresh blame pointed, narrative angles completely changed. The conversation around the disaster is NOT the same now as it was in the 90's. 

 

Honestly, I think the next time we play Liverpool will be an absolute nightmare for us - especially if it's at Hillsborough. There will be drama and it will feel like our club is being attacked by some quarters. The media will whip it right up. 

If your worry is us facing the media scrutiny year on year as we host Liverpool in the Premier League then I’ve got great news for you…
Honestly, it’s like worrying about what you’d spend a Euromillions win on…

[Utah Owl]

15 minutes ago, Sham67 said:

Why? What could be done there that would be of benefit to the club?

Enough space there to create a multi-storey car park with commercial outlets attached (cinema, bowling, pubs and restaurants, new club megastore, covered Penistone Rd over, new access to Kop and North Stand so basically a fanzone with facilities that would be used every day not just on match days. Club would benefit from improved access, fans in area spending money longer and income coming in every day of the week.

 

That's the theory anyway!

[sheffield_dave]

3 minutes ago, soldierboyblue said:

We played at Everton almost immediately after the disaster in 89 - There was trouble but nothing out of the normal for the 80s. So I'm at a loss to see where your rationale for all this comes from

 

Back then it was "just" a tragedy. 

 

It's since been a political points scoring exercise, a legal case, a nationwide conversation about football policing and government cover up, with a legal and moral spotlight pointed at our club (and its custodians at the time), our ground and the local police force. And unfortunately, we're not particularly on the positive end of any of those conversations, are we. 

 

Not sure about you, but when all this got dragged back up in the 2010's, I didn't exactly relish or enjoy waiting for the guilty/not guilty findings to be released when our club was specifically named on the charges following the enquiries. 

 

It's just more emotion that I think is - potentially - a bit different compared to when we last played Liverpool thanks to more recent enquiries and going over old ground. I expect Wednesday to publicly take some punches, even if it's only from a cynical media looking to stick the boot in to cover their own backs from what they printed previously.

[Tewkesbury]

20 minutes ago, Sham67 said:

Why? What could be done there that would be of benefit to the club?

We could always shut the megastore and put the club merch on the Aldi middle aisle, be better than what we have.

 

I've always wanted an official Wednesday angle grinder. 

[sheffield_dave]

5 minutes ago, CircleSeven said:

If your worry is us facing the media scrutiny year on year as we host Liverpool in the Premier League then I’ve got great news for you…
Honestly, it’s like worrying about what you’d spend a Euromillions win on…

 

Cups?

 

It's not a "worry". Merely one of the several reasons why I think moving from Hillsborough could a good idea and might be on the clubs agenda. Or at least was when things looked a bit more rosy.

[soldierboyblue]

3 minutes ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

Back then it was "just" a tragedy. 

 

It's since been a political points scoring exercise, a legal case, a nationwide conversation about football policing and government cover up, with a legal and moral spotlight pointed at our club (and its custodians at the time), our ground and the local police force. And unfortunately, we're not particularly on the positive end of any of those conversations, are we. 

 

Not sure about you, but when all this got dragged back up in the 2010's, I didn't exactly relish or enjoy waiting for the guilty/not guilty findings to be released when our club was specifically named on the charges following the enquiries. 

 

It's just more emotion that I think is - potentially - a bit different compared to when we last played Liverpool thanks to more recent enquiries and going over old ground. I expect Wednesday to publicly take some punches, even if it's only from a cynical media looking to stick the boot in to cover their own backs from what they printed previously.

As I remember the 're-trials' there was never any mention of SWFC being able to be prosecuted as the company that owned the club no longer exists. 

 

No moral spotlight on the club it was a moral spotlight on the likes of Graham Mackrell and SYP and rightly so. 

[Nero]

The demolish Hillsborough because of history thing. Unfortunately tragedies happen in public buildings and spaces, especially when they have been around a long time. 

 

It doesn't mean however that when these terrible events occur that the building or place where it happens is evicerated out of some kind of misguided 'respect' for the victims.

 

Off the top of my head,

Kings Cross

Ibrox

Manchester Arena

Manchester Arndale

Moorgate tube station.

 

Im sure there are lots. Unless the building is destroyed like say Grenfell, these places are not erased from history. These places like Hillsborough will always have a shadow, but they carry on.

 

The best way for all of these tradgedies to be honoured is by having a memorial and respecting the events but even more importantly that the mistakes that were made aren't repeated. 

 

 

 

[sheffield_dave]

1 minute ago, soldierboyblue said:

As I remember the 're-trials' there was never any mention of SWFC being able to be prosecuted as the company that owned the club no longer exists. 

 

No moral spotlight on the club it was a moral spotlight on the likes of Graham Mackrell and SYP and rightly so. 

 

Determinations and findings of the Hillsborough inquests - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

Question 8: Were there any features of the design, construction and layout of the stadium which you consider were dangerous or defective and which caused or contributed to the disaster?

Yes.

 

Question 9: Was there any error or omission in the safety certification and oversight of Hillsborough stadium that caused or contributed to the disaster?

Yes.

 

Question 10: Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday Football Club (and its staff) in the management of the stadium and/or preparation for the semi-final match on 15 April 1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match?

Yes.

 

Question 11: Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday FC (and its staff) on 15 April 1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?

No.

 

Further to that question: Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday FC (and its staff) on 15 April 1989 which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?

Yes.

[sheffield_dave]

2 minutes ago, Nero said:

The demolish Hillsborough because of history thing. Unfortunately tragedies happen in public buildings and spaces, especially when they have been around a long time. 

 

It doesn't mean however that when these terrible events occur that the building or place where it happens is evicerated out of some kind of misguided 'respect' for the victims.

 

Off the top of my head,

Kings Cross

Ibrox

Manchester Arena

Manchester Arndale

Moorgate tube station.

 

Im sure there are lots. Unless the building is destroyed like say Grenfell, these places are not erased from history. These places like Hillsborough will always have a shadow, but they carry on.

 

The best way for all of these tradgedies to be honoured is by having a memorial and respecting the events but even more importantly that the mistakes that were made aren't repeated. 

 

 

 

 

I don't think anybody is suggesting that we move entirely based on the history of the tragedy. 

 

Similarly, I think trying to deny the disaster has any impact in a broader conversation around "The Future of Hillsborough Stadium" is extremely naïve.

 

I don't want to leave Hillsborough. I DO think the club have looked at doing so, and that theoretical plans likely exist - no matter how early in their development - on possible sites etc. I think it's likely that the disaster plays some role in those decisions but is likely overshadowed by numerous other reasons why a move would be more commercially viable. All depending on the clubs success, obviously, hence why literally ALL of this is pie in the sky at the minute. 

[CircleSeven]

3 minutes ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

Cups?

 

It's not a "worry". Merely one of the several reasons why I think moving from Hillsborough could a good idea and might be on the clubs agenda. Or at least was when things looked a bit more rosy.

I know quite a few Liverpool fans and not one of them has ever expressed any animosity towards Wednesday or our fans related to the tragedy. They hate South Yorkshire Police, The Sun newspaper, the cover up and all that but not our club. I agree the stand should be demolished and something new put up, but because it’s old and out of date, not because of the disaster. 

[soldierboyblue]

4 minutes ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

Determinations and findings of the Hillsborough inquests - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

Question 8: Were there any features of the design, construction and layout of the stadium which you consider were dangerous or defective and which caused or contributed to the disaster?

Yes.

 

Question 9: Was there any error or omission in the safety certification and oversight of Hillsborough stadium that caused or contributed to the disaster?

Yes.

 

Question 10: Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday Football Club (and its staff) in the management of the stadium and/or preparation for the semi-final match on 15 April 1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match?

Yes.

 

Question 11: Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday FC (and its staff) on 15 April 1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?

No.

 

Further to that question: Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday FC (and its staff) on 15 April 1989 which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?

Yes.

If you want to hang onto something that is 32 years old this year and keep hand wringing over it crack on. 

 

1. Were Liverpool fans fighting in the Gate prior to leaving at 1450HRS? yes

 2. Were Liverpool fans well known for 'jibbing' there way into games and it was common tactics to storm the gates to get the police to let ticketless fans in? Yes

 

I could go on

[sheffield_dave]

8 minutes ago, soldierboyblue said:

If you want to hang onto something that is 32 years old this year and keep hand wringing over it crack on. 

 

1. Were Liverpool fans fighting in the Gate prior to leaving at 1450HRS? yes

 2. Were Liverpool fans well known for 'jibbing' there way into games and it was common tactics to storm the gates to get the police to let ticketless fans in? Yes

 

I could go on

I’m literally just quoting the accountability levelled at us from the enquiry, directly from the gov.uk site. 
 

That isn’t my personal opinion and it’s not me whose “hanging onto” anything.

 

[SiJ]

Long term, I think, with a heavy heart, that it would benefit the club to move.

 

They'll be those on here who know better than me, but I'd think trying to bring Hillsborough up to modern day standards would be extremely expensive.

 

Regarding the whole Liverpool thing, we are all dealing in hypothetical scenarios. It is quite remarkable that we've not drawn them once in a cup competition over the last 20 years. 

 

I think the media would make a big deal of it, but I'm not sure that would lead to much nastiness between the fans. Nothing more than usual. You are in that strange situation where you've got generations of Liverpool fans (proper and plastic) who've never see their team play us at Hillsborough.

Edited February 22, 2022 by SiJ