Unsustainable Player Recruitment

[quinnssweetshop]

Why wasn't this written years ago ?  We were all saying it ?  Why now ?

Don't get me wrong, It''s good that it's been finally said.

But lets hope that criticism is put forward, before the horse disappears out of the stable from now on.

[markg]

8 hours ago, Raminpeace said:

We can thrash that....

 

bradley Jonson 6m 

Jacob Butterfield 4.5m

nick blackman 3m

jason shackell 3m

tom huddlestone 2.5m

ikechi Anya 4m

marcus olsson 0.5m

abdul camara 1.5m

scott malone 2m

george thorne 3m 

Richard keogh 1m

david nugent 2m

 

33m.....

 

plus out of contract and waiting to happen any day now....

 

jack Marriott 3m

martyn Waghorn 5m 

Florian Jozefzoon 2m

andre wisdom 2m 

 

total 45m 

 

 

Explains why both of our clubs are in the current state that we are in doesn’t it. 

[Howards back]

9 hours ago, prowl said:

I'd sell mine.

I’d give mine away

[RichSheffWeds]

43 minutes ago, quinnssweetshop said:

Why wasn't this written years ago ?  We were all saying it ?  Why now ?

Don't get me wrong, It''s good that it's been finally said.

But lets hope that criticism is put forward, before the horse disappears out of the stable from now on.

Some of us were banging on about selling Forestieri and Reach at the time. This isn’t being smart with hindsight. 

[Guest Hornsby]

11 hours ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

The way Hull have responded does give hope that things can turn around quickly. They were in a sorry state towards the end of last season, getting hammered regularly and were the only team in the Championship to get less points than us in the second half of 2019/20. 

 

 

But owners not as stupid.

 

Also have a stadium without rent and lower cost base.

 

We are paying more rent than West Ham.

[RichSheffWeds]

https://www.owlstalk.co.uk/forums/topic/247175-is-sheffield-wednesday-striker-forestieri-now-half-price/page/3/#comments

The writing was on the wall in 2016. 
 

He should have gone either summer 2016 at his peak or immediately after Norwich when we might have got less but still very significant money for the club as he was still viewed as an outstanding player because of the season before. 
 

The same reasoning applies now to any player who’s contract is up next summer like Windass. Just sell them now and move on. 

[matthefish2002]

12 hours ago, Rogers said:

It must be hard though when fans are saying don’t sell our best players; like Hirst in his day and Forestieri to some extent. 
 

Although with Forestieri, he should have been sold after not wanting to play. 
 

But Brentford and others seems to just find replaces after season

 

But surely every clubs fans has that mentality of not wanting best players sold.

Although I have to admit a lot of Wednesday fans seem to get more attached to players than at other clubs.

[Philb125]

11 minutes ago, matthefish2002 said:

 

But surely every clubs fans has that mentality of not wanting best players sold.

Although I have to admit a lot of Wednesday fans seem to get more attached to players than at other clubs.

I’m not sure about other clubs, but certainly here our fanbase is usually in one of two camps: 

 

1) Fizz off, it’s 20m or nothing!! 
2) Have him for free, I’d drive him there myself

 

As a championship club (soon to be league one) the only way to survive is to sell players. Despite many gripes, over last 10 years spotting undervalued players with a point to prove hasn’t been an issue. Off the top of my head: Westwood, Lees, Lee, Hutch, Bannan, Iorfa, Forrestieri ...: I’m sure I’ve missed a few too. But where we have failed over and over is once the players have proved their point and increased in value. At that point, we should sell and reinvest on the next Bannan, the next Westwood etc. Instead we choose to double their salary and keep hold until they diminish in value or retire. 
 

Clubs in our position can’t afford to carry multiple players on 20k plus a week. Other than ruining us financially I’m also sure it’s screwed moral too. Players on normal wages looking to left/right/bench or sat at home on couch their colleagues earning 2/3/4x what they do. 

 

 

[matthefish2002]

6 minutes ago, Philb125 said:

I’m not sure about other clubs, but certainly here our fanbase is usually in one of two camps: 

 

1) Fizz off, it’s 20m or nothing!! 
2) Have him for free, I’d drive him there myself

 

As a championship club (soon to be league one) the only way to survive is to sell players. Despite many gripes, over last 10 years spotting undervalued players with a point to prove hasn’t been an issue. Off the top of my head: Westwood, Lees, Lee, Hutch, Bannan, Iorfa, Forrestieri ...: I’m sure I’ve missed a few too. But where we have failed over and over is once the players have proved their point and increased in value. At that point, we should sell and reinvest on the next Bannan, the next Westwood etc. Instead we choose to double their salary and keep hold until they diminish in value or retire. 
 

Clubs in our position can’t afford to carry multiple players on 20k plus a week. Other than ruining us financially I’m also sure it’s screwed moral too. Players on normal wages looking to left/right/bench or sat at home on couch their colleagues earning 2/3/4x what they do. 

 

 

 

I don't mind at all selling players, 95% of clubs have done this since professional football started.

Manchester United when at peak of their powers sold Ronaldo to Real Madrid so no one is immune from it.

Think Wednesday problem is we keep players too long who the fans are popular with the fans. 

I don't want to hear about giving a player another year because he is 'Good in the Dressing Room'

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by matthefish2002

[Rogers]

1 hour ago, matthefish2002 said:

 

But surely every clubs fans has that mentality of not wanting best players sold.

Although I have to admit a lot of Wednesday fans seem to get more attached to players than at other clubs.

Exactly. Selling your best players only works if you have someone equal or better to replace them, which some clubs seem to do

[shezzas left peg]

1 hour ago, matthefish2002 said:

 

But surely every clubs fans has that mentality of not wanting best players sold.

Although I have to admit a lot of Wednesday fans seem to get more attached to players than at other clubs.

I'm a realist, I have fond memories of past players, but if a very good offer comes in let them go and reinvest. 

 

I don't think those that do get very attached to players would be quite as outraged or against selling our better players if we had a good recruitment network that does its job well. For instance a lot of fans would be dead against selling bazza even if a good offer came in. if It was a Norwich or Brentford fan selling their best player and captain they wouldn't be so upset becouse they have faith that the clubs would reinvest and get a couple of good players that would improve the team.  I think that's the difference, we have no faith that we if we do sell will improve the team with whomever we sign as replacements. 

[longreach]

Y'know, reading all these comments, you could quite well be excused for thinking that our club was being run by a 15 year old kid!

[OwlinOldham]

The first 3 seasons spending and not selling was based on one thing and one thing alone, promotion to the premiership. 

 

DCs plan was always a quick 2 or 3 season turn around and to get us in to the prem ASAP. It didnt help though that we massively over achieved that first season under Carlos, meaning that rather than take a sensible approach, we instead started buying and hoarding players. Basically, after the first season the dream was closer than was expected after just one year, meaning DC got gold fever and started throwing big money at players trying to ensure that we got there. 

 

The other issue we had was that even if we had sold Reach and Fessi when they were highh stock, we dont have a scouting network in place to be able to replace them. Bit of a catch 22 situation there, as we then weaken the team b y selling and dont have anyone marked out and lined up to fill the gap left behind. Its easy to say Brentford do it, so why cant we, but Brentford have spend millions on setting up a scouting network, with targets identified early, so that they can be signed when they need to sell a star player. 

 

Not defending DC on any of this BTW, just think theres always more to it than just saying DC is stubborn or stupid. He knew the model of of buying big and selling nobody was going to be sh!t or bust, but he probs figured after 2 seasons of nearly getting there, the third season could be the one.  We went past the point of no return financially and it failed massively for us. For that he is to blame.

 

The next few seasons now need to be about building behind the scenes and getting the scouting networks set up proper. I know its not as easy to do as saying it, but it has to be easier than spending good money after bad ojn players and has beens and hoping something might click.

 

 

 

  

[Philb125]

1 hour ago, Rogers said:

Exactly. Selling your best players only works if you have someone equal or better to replace them, which some clubs seem to do

Who was equal/better than Ronaldo when Man Utd sold him? Not sure I agree with your theory here. Is Toney better than Watkins? Not sure he is but he’s a good replacement. The replacement doesn’t need to always be better for your team to get better. We could have not replaced Forrestieri at all and most likely not seen a detriment to our team, but been 10-15m better off. We could have also signed Ollie Watkins like Brentford did at that point who was at that point not deemed as good or better.... but look at them both now?? 

[malek]

Just now, Philb125 said:

Who was equal/better than Ronaldo when Man Utd sold him? Not sure I agree with your theory here. Is Toney better than Watkins? Not sure he is but he’s a good replacement. The replacement doesn’t need to always be better for your team to get better. We could have not replaced Forrestieri at all and most likely not seen a detriment to our team, but been 10-15m better off. We could have also signed Ollie Watkins like Brentford did at that point who was at that point not deemed as good or better.... but look at them both now?? 

 

In his book Ferguson explained how big regeneration is for football clubs and used Ronaldo as an example.

 

He said how he knew how good Ronaldo was going to become and hoped he would be able to keep him at Manchester United for 3 years (he stayed 4). In that time Ferguson made a shortlist of players that he thought could replace him and used all that time to get all the possible informations on players he picked as his replacement. Said that he did the same for all key United players and that it is the only way forward and to continually progress.

[Rogers]

4 minutes ago, Philb125 said:

Who was equal/better than Ronaldo when Man Utd sold him? Not sure I agree with your theory here. Is Toney better than Watkins? Not sure he is but he’s a good replacement. The replacement doesn’t need to always be better for your team to get better. We could have not replaced Forrestieri at all and most likely not seen a detriment to our team, but been 10-15m better off. We could have also signed Ollie Watkins like Brentford did at that point who was at that point not deemed as good or better.... but look at them both now?? 

Ronaldo, probably one of the top 2-3 players that’s ever lived, is always gonna be hard to replace. 
 

Man Utd still won the league the season after he left. 
 

 

[Philb125]

1 minute ago, Rogers said:

Ronaldo, probably one of the top 2-3 players that’s ever lived, is always gonna be hard to replace. 
 

Man Utd still won the league the season after he left. 
 

 

Ok, look at Barnsley if that makes it easier for the point to be relevant. They continue to progress despite signing lessor players than those that they sold. 
 

But the players they bring in, fit the plan and go onto develop into better players. 
 

Our attitude that we only sell if we can get as good or better isn’t sustainable for a club in our position. You have to make money from players to find the entire club, therefore you have to buy lessor players than those you have sold and let them develop.

[OwlinOldham]

5 minutes ago, Philb125 said:

Ok, look at Barnsley if that makes it easier for the point to be relevant. They continue to progress despite signing lessor players than those that they sold. 
 

But the players they bring in, fit the plan and go onto develop into better players. 
 

Our attitude that we only sell if we can get as good or better isn’t sustainable for a club in our position. You have to make money from players to find the entire club, therefore you have to buy lessor players than those you have sold and let them develop.

 

Highlighted the bit thats the problem. Unlike Barnsley, We dont actually have a plan. 

 

We dont currently seem to even have a basic set up in place like Barnsley that can identify up and coming talent to develop into better players. Most if not all of our signing shave been "recommended" to us. Imagine selling Fessi or Reach when they were at their best and them being replaced by some other Doyen/Paxo suggestion. Remember, signings such as Abdi and David Jones were players that were recommended to us, not scouted. 

[Ante's Bubbly]

16 hours ago, Rogers said:

This is not a new thing for SWFC, Carbone, Di Canio, Sibon, De Bilde, Sinton, the list can go on. 
 

We buy high and sell low (even free) 

 

25 years of that will take its toll. 

 

Yes, I totally agree and have said the same. We got into a downwards spiral under Dave Richards when we started paying higher and higher wages to players that would have accepted less and buying players that had already peaked, picked up injuries, got closer to retirement and had little sell on value. The club had got itself into the old division one and later the Premiership, based on bringing lesser known young players into the team and combining the right types of character, skill and experience to make a team that the manager wanted and knew he could get to the fitness levels required to win promotion and even take the next division by storm. When we got to the point where we had just about abandoned signing younger fitter players and started to bring in more and more short term players who were nothing more than expensive mercenaries, the club started to lose it's grip on the football side of things and the fans became disenfranchised with the club, had less and less rapport with the players and started to leave before we even slipped from the top flight. To start that process all over again, without even having the (in my opinion) overrated glory of playing in the prem, is inexcusable and shows a total ignorance of how to run a football club. "We", as a set of fans and as a club, we knew that Chansiri could not keep up the ridiculous overspending, yet he and his, "advisors", continued down a very dangerous path where many other clubs had followed and failed, but where we had already failed as a club that were up there with the best in the country at one time, but did not have the brains to carry on doing what we were doing well and turned from a successful club into a failing club over a three season period without having the nous to turn it back around.

 

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, because I have not been on the site for a week or so, but I have just signed the government petition for an independent regulating body for football, which hopefully would force owners into listening to the clubs fans and stop them from doing things that put the clubs at risk the way they have been doing in an alarmingly increasing fashion.

 

See link for the petition below

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/584632

 

 

 

[Beauchief Owl]

Just more evidence of our owner doing things his way and not listening to those with more knowledge. I remember Carlos saying the owner wouldn't sell players because they were 'family'. The result of DC' s 'left side dealing', is that we have been left in the lurch.