Cowleys

[Guest LondonOwl313]

14 minutes ago, TomtheOwl95 said:

The situations are completely different. Monk walked in with a squad at the end of it's cycle with some big off the field issues and a fanbase disillusioned. He was overachieving to be 3rd at Christmas. 

 

Carlos arrived with a big budget to spend and a squad that had just let a load of players go and a fanbase upbeat. I say all that as a fan of Carlos as well.

My point is that Carlos had earned some good grace by getting us to two play offs, so he could more easily be excused for a period of poor performance.

 

Obviously we do have some issues at the moment at boardroom level and with the finances, plus a number of players had gone stale and we need squad turnover. But Monk has still underperformed this season despite all that. This season the top 4-5 clubs have been decent but beyond that its very average. Anyone can finish 6th really. We should have been in that chasing pack with the likes of Cardiff, Millwall, Preston, Swansea, Derby and Bristol. Not saying we should have made the play offs but we should have been more competitive. A better manager, and dare I say if Bruce hadn't left, would have had us in that ballpark with a squad that included Westwood, Iorfa, Hutchinson, Bannan, Fletcher and FF. We've failed to utilise our better players effectively.

 

Monk overachieved in his first 15 games or so but has then badly underachieved for the last 20 odd and more than offset that, which is why we're not coming in to the end of the season with 60 odd points and being in with a shout of 6th (ignoring any points deduction). That's an honest assessment of what this squad could have achieved with the right management... the squad is well past its best and needs a refresh but looking at the competition it's still comparable to those clubs mentioned above. It will be much harder next season unless we go out and spend to rejuvenate the squad, and I'm not sure Chansiri is making the kind of noises to suggest that's likely.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, pazowl55 said:

But did they have players refuse to play for them beyond the 30th like we did. Losing Fletcher and Fox was a big blow to us. Forestieri aswell to a degree.

 

The problem we have is the not knowing. Wigan knew they must get 13 points clear of relegation to survive. So they got on with it.

 Ours players haven't got a clue if one win will do it. If we are already safe or already down as it was always going to be a 21 point deduction. Not many squads have had to cope with that level of uncertainty about their futures.

 

So what you are saying is we are not getting results like Wigan are because our situation is unknown? I would have hoped the manager would have been able to motivate his squad who have 'new togetherness and positive vibes' to get results regardless and play like our league position depends on it. 

As I said, the contributions of Fox, Forestieri and Fletcher in 2020 have been minimal even before they decided not to play anymore, I doubt Fox would have been effective at wing-back, or do you think we would have stuck to 4 at the back and conceded 3+ goals regularly if he had continued? 

Too easy to excuse our results sometimes. 

[TomtheOwl95]

29 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

My point is that Carlos had earned some good grace by getting us to two play offs, so he could more easily be excused for a period of poor performance.

 

Obviously we do have some issues at the moment at boardroom level and with the finances, plus a number of players had gone stale and we need squad turnover. But Monk has still underperformed this season despite all that. This season the top 4-5 clubs have been decent but beyond that its very average. Anyone can finish 6th really. We should have been in that chasing pack with the likes of Cardiff, Millwall, Preston, Swansea, Derby and Bristol. Not saying we should have made the play offs but we should have been more competitive. A better manager, and dare I say if Bruce hadn't left, would have had us in that ballpark with a squad that included Westwood, Iorfa, Hutchinson, Bannan, Fletcher and FF. We've failed to utilise our better players effectively.

 

Monk overachieved in his first 15 games or so but has then badly underachieved for the last 20 odd and more than offset that, which is why we're not coming in to the end of the season with 60 odd points and being in with a shout of 6th (ignoring any points deduction). That's an honest assessment of what this squad could have achieved with the right management... the squad is well past its best and needs a refresh but looking at the competition it's still comparable to those clubs mentioned above. It will be much harder next season unless we go out and spend to rejuvenate the squad, and I'm not sure Chansiri is making the kind of noises to suggest that's likely.

Totally agree on that point, sadly the United game finished him off in the eyes of a lot of fans. If you swap the 4-2 with United and the 3-0 over Leeds a week later it might have been different.

 

You can put 90% of the on pitch issues this season down to Bruce leaving, Monk just isn't as good a manager as Bruce. That's the simple fact, we had a top manager at this level and he bolted. That, regardless of what the players say, had an effect on them. I still feel it's harsh to put too much on Monk. Judge him when he's built his own side and maybe with his own backroom team. Changing now would just be illogical in my opinion.

[pazowl55]

30 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

So what you are saying is we are not getting results like Wigan are because our situation is unknown? I would have hoped the manager would have been able to motivate his squad who have 'new togetherness and positive vibes' to get results regardless and play like our league position depends on it. 

As I said, the contributions of Fox, Forestieri and Fletcher in 2020 have been minimal even before they decided not to play anymore, I doubt Fox would have been effective at wing-back, or do you think we would have stuck to 4 at the back and conceded 3+ goals regularly if he had continued? 

Too easy to excuse our results sometimes. 

Not excuse our results they need to improve. What i was saying was our situation after coming back is as bad as any ones is.

[Jim]

8 hours ago, Dagmeister's Shadow said:

On the other hand I think the purge that's begun is vital for us to re-set and rebuild. IMO its been put off for too long and was always going to come with some pain. I believe that there has been a real malaise embedded within the squad long before Monk arrived that simply had to be tackled. It inevitably would cause some pain. If we are relegated because of a points deduction that will be the fault of others not Monk IMO. 

I expect him to be here next season and personally I am happy with this. 

 

 

 

 

The potential points deduction isn’t his fault but our inability to soak it up without getting relegated is. Let’s not forget the state we were in before the pandemic hit? He was out of his depth, clueless and chucking enough sh!t at the wall and see what if anything would stick? The pandemic saved his job, not he’s definitely the right man for the job thinking from the club?

 

I admire you’re faith in him but he’s just one of those managers who goes around trying to make out he knows what he’s doing, subsequently gets found out, trousers his pay off then moves on to his next job and all this is usually done within 12-18 months and it’ll be no different here?

 

 

[dorian gray]

4 minutes ago, Jim said:

 

The potential points deduction isn’t his fault but our inability to soak it up without getting relegated is. Let’s not forget the state we were in before the pandemic hit? He was out of his depth, clueless and chucking enough sh!t at the wall and see what if anything would stick? The pandemic saved his job, not he’s definitely the right man for the job thinking from the club?

 

I admire you’re faith in him but he’s just one of those managers who goes around trying to make out he knows what he’s doing, subsequently gets found out, trousers his pay off then moves on to his next job and all this is usually done within 12-18 months and it’ll be no different here?

 

 

time and time again, you refuse to see or accept that monk took us to third place in this division with a squad that should have only been capable of top 8 at very best.

he then lost his only forward for a prolonged period, then you go on to post the sh*te we have (forward wise) would have performed under a different manager.

brian clough in his pomp couldn't have got rhodes, and winnall firing, couldn't have made nuhiu a threat for more than 15 mins. a game, maybe clough could have got ff to string together 2 decent games in a month, but that speaks volumes of ff not gary monk.

you had your pass it for passings sake period, look where it got us by the end?, around where we are now in the table, and this clubs best chance for decades totally spent.

[gurujuan]

I’m a little perplexed about this so called purge. Monk identified Westwood and Hutchinson as the players who were letting the side down, and left them out. Fair enough, that’s his prerogative and if that’s what he thought was best for the team, then that’s his job. Results began to fall away  He also started to freeze out Forestieri, but with no upturn in results. He had the opportunity to replace whatever was missing by having to leave out those players, in the January window. Three new players arrived in that window, but we continued to plummet, with the manager continuing to question the players attitude. Following the lock down, we lost the services of the out of contract Fletcher and Fox, and finally results and performance started to improve. Had we found the real culprits? If so, that begs the question, why then were we prepared to offer them new deals? Purge or witch-hunt, did it need doing, and did it need doing in such a public way, especially if it has ended up jeopardising our Championship status

Edited July 18, 2020 by gurujuan

[@owlstalk]

28 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

I’m a little perplexed about this so called purge. Monk identified Westwood and Hutchinson as the players who were letting the side down, and left them out. Fair enough, that’s his prerogative and if that’s what he thought was best for the team, then that’s his job. Results began to fall away  He also started to freeze out Forestieri, but with no upturn in results. He had the opportunity to replace whatever was missing by having to leave out those players, in the January window. Three new players arrived in that window, but we continued to plummet, with the manager continuing to question the players attitude. Following the lock down, we lost the services of the out of contract Fletcher and Fox, and finally results and performance started to improve. Had we found the real culprits? If so, that begs the question, why then were we prepared to offer them new deals? Purge or witch-hunt, did it need doing, and did it need doing in such a public way, especially if it has ended up jeopardising our Championship status

 

 

Freezing a few troublesome player out whilst they're still at the club wouldn't necessarily see an upturn in results though. That's now how a culture at a business works. 

If anything it can make it a more uncomfortable place to be for a while

Fletcher and Fox weren't troublesome players. They just probably took a look at the club's situation, embargoes, EFL hearings, lack of spending, and thought they'd clear off. You can't blame ambitious players for doing that right now whilst we transition

[@owlstalk]

1 hour ago, Jim said:

 

The potential points deduction isn’t his fault but our inability to soak it up without getting relegated is. Let’s not forget the state we were in before the pandemic hit? He was out of his depth, clueless and chucking enough sh!t at the wall and see what if anything would stick? The pandemic saved his job, not he’s definitely the right man for the job thinking from the club?

 

I admire you’re faith in him but he’s just one of those managers who goes around trying to make out he knows what he’s doing, subsequently gets found out, trousers his pay off then moves on to his next job and all this is usually done within 12-18 months and it’ll be no different here?

 

 

 

Morning Jim,

Quick reminder that there are 135246 threads about Monk (you're in ALL of them)

 

[northeastowl]

Serious post although others won’t think so. If Monk was to go then I would seriously look at getting Gergard Struber in.

[gurujuan]

5 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 

 

Freezing a few troublesome player out whilst they're still at the club wouldn't necessarily see an upturn in results though. That's now how a culture at a business works. 

If anything it can make it a more uncomfortable place to be for a while

Fletcher and Fox weren't troublesome players. They just probably took a look at the club's situation, embargoes, EFL hearings, lack of spending, and thought they'd clear off. You can't blame ambitious players for doing that right now whilst we transition

I don’t blame them for that, and you can add, most players wouldn’t enjoy the style of football they were being asked to play. I keep reading that the loss of Fletcher was a huge blow, and it was, but should it have been? It’s only because we were very one dimensional, that we we’re so dependent on him. 
I actually don’t blame Fletcher for this, his all round game means he is capable of being so much more than someone we just lump the ball up to. That’s tactical, we saw it the other night, when we continued to lump the ball up towards two diminutive forwards

[@owlstalk]

Just now, gurujuan said:

I don’t blame them for that, and you can add, most players wouldn’t enjoy the style of football they were being asked to play. I keep reading that the loss of Fletcher was a huge blow, and it was, but should it have been? It’s only because we were very one dimensional, that we we’re so dependent on him. 
I actually don’t blame Fletcher for this, his all round game means he is capable of being so much more than someone we just lump the ball up to. That’s tactical, we saw it the other night, when we continued to lump the ball up towards two diminutive forwards

 

Yeah true

 

At the time he was the only striker firing on all cylinders

[sheriwozgod]

34 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

I don’t blame them for that, and you can add, most players wouldn’t enjoy the style of football they were being asked to play. I keep reading that the loss of Fletcher was a huge blow, and it was, but should it have been? It’s only because we were very one dimensional, that we we’re so dependent on him. 
I actually don’t blame Fletcher for this, his all round game means he is capable of being so much more than someone we just lump the ball up to. That’s tactical, we saw it the other night, when we continued to lump the ball up towards two diminutive forwards

 

This is my main worry for next year................providing we avoid the drop.

 

I was ambivalent about Monk`s appointment but he has been here almost a year now and apart from the odd decent performance the "style" of our play has been pretty one dimensional , and frequently awful to watch.

 

I think 10 months is long enough for him to put his stamp on the team , but i am seeing very little or no progress....................it took him 9 months to realise our best formation for the personnel we have.

[gurujuan]

13 minutes ago, sheriwozgod said:

 

This is my main worry for next year................providing we avoid the drop.

 

I was ambivalent about Monk`s appointment but he has been here almost a year now and apart from the odd decent performance the "style" of our play has been pretty one dimensional , and frequently awful to watch.

 

I think 10 months is long enough for him to put his stamp on the team , but i am seeing very little or no progress....................it took him 9 months to realise our best formation for the personnel we have.

Me too, I find us a difficult watch at the moment. I think I could deal with the inconsistent results, if we weren’t so friggin boring to watch. Rightly or wrongly, I associate Monk’s teams with that style of football Some say, he didn’t play that way at Swansea or Leeds, and I suppose that’s what gives me hope

[SwellOwl]

2 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

Me too, I find us a difficult watch at the moment. I think I could deal with the inconsistent results, if we weren’t so friggin boring to watch. Rightly or wrongly, I associate Monk’s teams with that style of football Some say, he didn’t play that way at Swansea or Leeds, and I suppose that’s what gives me hope

Maybe Monk feels majority of these players aren’t capable of playing the football of the likes of Swansea and Leeds. Many have said 10 months should be enough but we have all said that this wasn’t going to be a quick fix. 
 

I am not suggesting Monk is the ideal man, however, we all know what a basket case of a squad he inherited. 

[Bluesteel]

10 hours ago, TomtheOwl95 said:

Totally agree on that point, sadly the United game finished him off in the eyes of a lot of fans. If you swap the 4-2 with United and the 3-0 over Leeds a week later it might have been different.

 

You can put 90% of the on pitch issues this season down to Bruce leaving, Monk just isn't as good a manager as Bruce. That's the simple fact, we had a top manager at this level and he bolted. That, regardless of what the players say, had an effect on them. I still feel it's harsh to put too much on Monk. Judge him when he's built his own side and maybe with his own backroom team. Changing now would just be illogical in my opinion.

Agree with this, unless an obvious candidate came along again. Someone like that feels like a coup.

 

On Carlos he had a decent budget but he was too dogmatic with it. The neglect of any of the traditional ingredients that make up a typical English defence and pace out wide, purely because he supposedly knew better (dismissing questions as if he was on a higher plane), cost us dearly and held us back when his tailored squad couldn’t do it any more. 
 

Typically as soon as Bruce and Monk come in some height at the back and some pace/directness are top of the agenda as you can make more of that for the money spent and be harder to play against. Always felt Carlos’ approach needed the best technical players (we were close to that) and for them to be on it each week which we often weren’t against the battlers at the bottom.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Bluesteel said:

Agree with this, unless an obvious candidate came along again. Someone like that feels like a coup.

 

On Carlos he had a decent budget but he was too dogmatic with it. The neglect of any of the traditional ingredients that make up a typical English defence and pace out wide, purely because he supposedly knew better (dismissing questions as if he was on a higher plane), cost us dearly and held us back when his tailored squad couldn’t do it any more. 
 

Typically as soon as Bruce and Monk come in some height at the back and some pace/directness are top of the agenda as you can make more of that for the money spent and be harder to play against. Always felt Carlos’ approach needed the best technical players (we were close to that) and for them to be on it each week which we often weren’t against the battlers at the bottom.

 

Harder to play against? Don't think that approach has worked, how many times have we conceded 3+ this season? I can see the reasoning behind it and honestly thought Monk would instill that as a basis and it did start off that way for a while.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Guest

[gurujuan]

1 hour ago, SwellOwl said:

Maybe Monk feels majority of these players aren’t capable of playing the football of the likes of Swansea and Leeds. Many have said 10 months should be enough but we have all said that this wasn’t going to be a quick fix. 
 

I am not suggesting Monk is the ideal man, however, we all know what a basket case of a squad he inherited. 

Maybe, but I often find players are capable of much more than some managers give them credit for, but they have to be encouraged to play that way. Them lot over the way are a classic example

[alanharper]

3 hours ago, northeastowl said:

Serious post although others won’t think so. If Monk was to go then I would seriously look at getting Gergard Struber in.

 

Based on what? When he joined Barnsley midseason they were bottom, and with 2 games to go they're still bottom and could be relegated tomorrow. 

[northeastowl]

6 hours ago, alanharper said:

 

Based on what? When he joined Barnsley midseason they were bottom, and with 2 games to go they're still bottom and could be relegated tomorrow. 

Their style of play. They have rubbish players and look a good team to watch just can’t score. With a decent set of players he would get us playing some very good stuff just like he had at Wolfsberger.