Poor Squad Myth

[markg]

1 hour ago, jrh said:

You are very right with that first part and having a squad that gets very little injuries is impressive in itself. However not everyone in the squad is the same. Mouset or however you spel his name has been a fans favourite this year for them and has had a few injuries but he is tactically smart enough to change their game plans to not rely on having his pace and still get results.

 

However, I definitely don't believe that they had rubbish players but they over performed with the finances used to finish top 2. He took players such as Clarke, Mcgoldrick, O'connell that weren't wanted by their previous clubs and deemed not good enough and made them successful. 

 

Egan is the only player that they really spent any money on. 

 

What makes me think that about Wilder is that he gets the best (and more) out of seemingly all of his players! Something that we don't do and Monk most certainly isn't. 

But wilder signs players that have hunger and desire and are of strong mentality. If it turns out that he is wrong then he ships them out.

 

We do neither of those things. And it isnt all down to the manager 

[Ronnie Starling]

3 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

Think the style of play, and probably the players enthusiasm, or lack of it, to play that way, is a factor, yes. Much was made of Carlos’s supposed lack of attention to fitness levels, but that high pressing game he employed, certainly demanded a level of fitness. Players usually take on a different demeanour if they are in enjoying their football, or believe in what the coach is asking them to do. Is that the case now, are players enjoying what they are being asked to do

Being outside of the football bubble I look at footballers and think how lucky they are to be at a professional level paid a huge salary. You would think that they wake up every day thinking how lucky they are. Now that's a bit blinkered as there will be numerous factors that affects their thinking and once you earn a certain amount of money it's never enough and you want more. As a minimum though they should be managing themselves off the field to ensure they are in a position to achieve their play to their best. Every player can run jump talk shout and encourage. Ours seem to be lacking that professionalism.

[McRightSide]

46 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

 

I loathe this self-indulgent currency of judging support on how angry one gets or how much complaining is done or calling for some kind of revolution all the time.

 

As usual looking at this thread, our squad is simultaneously promotion ready and inevitably getting relegated. It seems to me, that the truth lies exactly in between (notwithstanding the recent alarming slump which may indicate something more fundamental at work).

 

Nuance seems to be an endangered concept these days. Everything is either glorious or desperate; no in between allowed.

Well you’re self-indulgent currency of judging people by their own self-indulgent currency is even worse.

 

Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

Btw, 1 win in 9 (?) and one point against the bottom 3 is desperate is it not?

Edited February 13, 2020 by McRightSide

[Luke]

Too many people living in the past with these has been players

It's like they haven't seen a game since Wembley 

 

Are strikers are a embarrassment

Still bringing wardrobe on as our secret weapon - embarrassing 

 

Our midfield contribute 5 goals between um a season, if we're lucky 

 

Our captain has zero leadership, can't defend, can't run and can't pass without lumping 

 

Our fullbacks are league 1 standard, Fernando played wingback ffs 

 

We've got fans begging for Westwood and Hutchinson back, what have they done this season?

 

If it didn't work 5 years ago with some players, it ain't gonna suddenly gonna click now 

 

People seriously are gonna have to look at this crock of sh!t for what they are, cus we are on the verge of getting relegated, never mind if monk, bullen or klopp leads these bottlejobs

[DJMortimer]

7 minutes ago, McRightSide said:

Well you’re self-indulgent currency of judging people by their own self-indulgent currency is even worse.

 

Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

Btw, 1 win in 9 (?) and one point against the bottom 3 is desperate is it not?

 

So, what are you going to do about it?

 

The net outcome of all this is much the same it seems to me, whether you're deliriously happy or boiling mad about the situation. 

[torryowl]

I think we have quite a few good players what we don't have is the right mix of players to make a good team ……it seems that the view of the club is/was  " he's a good player we'll sign him " rather than can we fit him in to make the team better …..

[Costello 77]

If you take any interest in elite coaches you'll know that after they've established core values into the group and identified where the weaknesses are... they setup leadership groups within the squad..

 

Fu*king good luck with that Garry.

[steelerian]

Responding to OP:

 

How many of our players are technically good?

 

How many of our players have pace?

 

How many of our players possess power and aggression?

 

How many of our players are "natural born winners"?

 

How many of our players could we sell for £5m+

 

How many of our players could actually play in the Prem?

 

The answers, if we are honest, are, zero zero zero zero zero and zero.

 

A clear out is severely needed.

 

 

[DJMortimer]

It's easy to appoint ourselves de facto manager and/or chairman; blustering about this or that we'd do differently. 

 

This is problematic firstly because we are not in full possession of the relevant information needed to make sound judgements (and nor should we). If there are divisions in the playing and coaching staff, as many believe, surely you need to know the details before punishing this guy and rewarding the other?

 

Secondly, we are not held accountable, it won't affect our career or reputation or finances. Anyone can make glib threats and promises in those circumstances.

 

Also, given some of the criticisms levelled at individuals and groups within the club at all levels, one wonders what would happen if some of the suggestions on here were actually followed. Half of the squad would either be rewarded for outright insubordination or ostracised like criminals. Despite the obvious financial issues we'd be having to recruit maybe a dozen new players a season (and obviously developmental ones would not be tolerated much, so big money would be necessary) or fielding half of the Academy team. The manager would do well to last six months before he was replaced and at that rate, we could have multiple ones salaried at once.

 

Not for a moment am I suggesting we should be sanguine about our alarming slump, but setting our hair on fire, shouting the first thing that comes to mind and running around wildly is no solution either.

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by DJMortimer

[nevthelodgemoorowl]

RSFH are really pedalling the myth. If we had a manager that believed in the players and players that had confidence in the manager, a couple of additions in the right places. Then we'd be doing OK and improving.

[gurujuan]

13 minutes ago, steelerian said:

Responding to OP:

 

How many of our players are technically good?

 

How many of our players have pace?

 

How many of our players possess power and aggression?

 

How many of our players are "natural born winners"?

 

How many of our players could we sell for £5m+

 

How many of our players could actually play in the Prem?

 

The answers, if we are honest, are, zero zero zero zero zero and zero.

 

A clear out is severely needed.

 

 

You would have said the same about Wilder’s Championship side, the difference my friend, is a good coach

[Guest Ferkorf]

Monk is an awful manager lets face it.

Even when we have won games its by the skin of our teeth.

Hope its true his contract expires at end of the season with that boat load of players too.

Time for Dc to stop messing around its a real opportunity to lay the foundations for the future this summer and get from under the Efl cloud too

[prowl]

The squad has a rotten core of big personalities who think they are bigger than the manager and the club. That is the problem.

 

Shifting one or two of them won't change things. We need a manager to decide who is worth keeping from a football and wages perspective but also from a team cohesion basis. Players need to commit to the club wholeheartedly  or be shown the door. if that means not renewing contracts that's fine, if not get rid of the ones we can for whatever we can. If there are no offers then they either buy into the programme or train with the U23's

 

Some fans have their mindset a bit askew. Our players aren't irreplaceable, other clubs manage to do well without our players. Infact a lot of clubs wouldn't touch some of our players with a bargepole.

[Costello 77]

9 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

It's easy to appoint ourselves de facto manager and/or chairman; blustering about this or that we'd do differently. 

 

This is problematic firstly because we are not in full possession of the relevant information needed to make sound judgements (and nor should we). If there are divisions in the playing and coaching staff, as many believe, surely you need to know the details before punishing this guy and rewarding the other?

 

Secondly, we are not held accountable, it won't affect our career or reputation or finances. Anyone can make glib threats and promises in those circumstances.

 

Also, given some of the criticisms levelled at individuals and groups within the club at all levels, one wonders what would happen if some of the suggestions on here were actually followed. Half of the squad would either be rewarded for outright insubordination or ostracised like criminals. Despite the obvious financial issues we'd be having to recruit maybe a dozen new players a season (and obviously developmental ones would not be tolerated much, so big money would be necessary) or fielding half of the Academy team. The manager would do well to last six months before he was replaced and at that rate, we could have multiple ones salaried at once.

 

Not for a moment am I suggesting we should be sanguine about our alarming slump, but setting our hair on fire, shouting the first thing that comes to mind and running around wildly is no solution either.

 

I'm incapable of the science of quantum probability... but I like a game of bingo..

[OwlBiSeeinThi]

6 hours ago, 21/4/91 said:

Monk is not a good motivator. He doesn't seem to have learned that you shouldn't publicly criticize players, or use words like "embarrassing". He also said that there were some players who shouldn't be at the club; what sort of a message does that send to the players he dropped from subsequent squads - Jordan Rhodes, Sam Winnall etc? How do you think those players feel right now? They are human beings. Being publicly castigated by a manager is not good for anyone. Wilder would never do this. Nor would any consistently successful manager - in any walk of life.

 

Those saying that our squad are good enough for the top six, even the top two - potentially - are correct.

 

Those advocating mass clear-outs of players are just reacting in anger and not analysing the situation. (That's one of the functions of football, though - it allows people to vent anger in an irrational and badly-thought out way).

 

It's not even Monk's "fault", he's conforming to managerial type - blaming other people (publicly) when things don't go well. Ultimately, it's the owner's responsibility, I suppose. He has made one relatively good managerial appointment and three relatively poor managerial appointments. I hope that Monk leaves in the summer.

 

 

I doubt you've met the guy.

I know you've not been in the dressing room

I know you've not been on the training ground

I'm not sure how you can say what he is or isn't or what he does or doesn't.

People are talking about him like they work with him.

 

He'd not the first manager to say he was embarrassed by the performance. He'd not the first manager to publicly criticise players. He sure as hell won't be the last.

 

Home truths for people on massive weekly salaries that some of us could only dream of. They need to take it like men and buck up or ship out.

 

Also, people having a wankfest over wilder need to consider whether he would put up with any of them here. I think the air would turn blue.

[jrh]

14 minutes ago, steelerian said:

Responding to OP:

 

How many of our players are technically good?

 

How many of our players have pace?

 

How many of our players possess power and aggression?

 

How many of our players are "natural born winners"?

 

How many of our players could we sell for £5m+

 

How many of our players could actually play in the Prem?

 

The answers, if we are honest, are, zero zero zero zero zero and zero.

 

A clear out is severely needed.

 

 

The answer isn't zero to those questions though is it. We sold Joao for 5 million in the summer and he wasn't a starter a lot of the time. 

 

Technically good: All CMs expect pelupessy. Nando. Da Cruz looks good technically. Wickham. I'd say technically that Rhodes is good, just isn't physically. 

 

Pace: Harris, Murphy, maybe Da Cruz. 

 

Power and aggression: Iorfa, Hutchinson, Borner/Lees sometimes, fletcher, Wickham, Harris. 

 

Natural born winners: very hard to measure. 

 

Sell for 5 mil: Bannan, Iorfa but that question all depends on how much people are willing to pay. Reach and nando could have supposedly gone for that in recent past. Plus where do you expect to get this squad full of 5 mil worth players for free? 

[Ante's Bubbly]

1 hour ago, gurujuan said:

You would have said the same about Wilder’s Championship side, the difference my friend, is a good coach

Not sure why Wilder and the pigs keep cropping up when discussing OUR squad. The difference our friend, is that if Wilder had come in after our loss at Wembley he would have cleared out a large number of those players in year one and another couple of chunks in years two and three. Wilder likes skilfull players who give it their all 9 times out of ten and rewards players that do the business with new contracts while getting rid of the ones that do not. 

 

Now back to the real world, we would not still be arguing about how good or how bad the majority of our squad are, if they were still actually any good, would we? They would have shown us by now. Check out the stats for the best players in our division for each team if you need something to compare our squad with (try whoscored.com). Unlike you and Chansiri a lot of us do not live inside an SWFC bubble where we think our players are all world beaters and everybody wants them. Other teams higher up than us in this division have better balanced squads and more players that can consistently deliver performances of 7/10 or higher. We will struggle to finish any higher than 9th this season unless there is a significant change in the professionalism of a big group of our lilly livered players. They each need to take charge of their individual areas of the pitch, start winning their personal battles and think a lot more about what they are doing. They also need to understand what they must try to do for the team, the fans, the money they earn, or the manager, but if they are not inspired to perform for any of those things, we already know that some have too little personal pride, so they can take a hike. I have not seen anything this season to change my opinion that some of them have sparkled for us, but not shone bright enough, or long enough for a while now. Clear out the chaff.

[21/4/91]

On 13/02/2020 at 21:25, OwlBiSeeinThi said:

I doubt you've met the guy.

I know you've not been in the dressing room

I know you've not been on the training ground

I'm not sure how you can say what he is or isn't or what he does or doesn't.

People are talking about him like they work with him.

 

He'd not the first manager to say he was embarrassed by the performance. He'd not the first manager to publicly criticise players. He sure as hell won't be the last.

 

Home truths for people on massive weekly salaries that some of us could only dream of. They need to take it like men and buck up or ship out.

 

Also, people having a wankfest over wilder need to consider whether he would put up with any of them here. I think the air would turn blue.

You don't need to meet someone to have an opinion on their management style. Publicly criticising players tends to engender low morale. Clinton Morrison said this on Five Live recently - he has been in dressing rooms and at training grounds. Since saying that performances were an embarrassment and that there were players who should not be at the club, Monk has brought in three new forwards, played them a couple of times, before dropping or substituting all three. My opinion is that wholesale changes, alongside public criticism, when things are not going well on the pitch, is likely to lead to feelings of instability, again adding to low morale.

People whose morale is low tend not to perform well - whatever the walk of life they operate in. You are right, I've never been to the training ground; I have never set foot in the dressing room.

Players earn a lot more money than most of us. My opinion is that this is not relevant to the argument. Please explain.

My reservations about Monk really came to the surface when Grant McCann said that his squad had not been well treated before the game in January - which Hull won. Monk's response, "I don't know anything about that." My opinion - lack of responsibility, poor leadership, weak management.

Someone once said, "Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one but they think each other's stink." I could be completely wrong. Monk could lead Wednesday back into the Premiership for the first time in... what is it? Twenty years? A final opinion - he won't.

[21/4/91]

Agreed.

[OwlBiSeeinThi]

49 minutes ago, 21/4/91 said:

You don't need to meet someone to have an opinion on their management style. Publicly criticising players tends to engender low morale. Clinton Morrison said this on Five Live recently - he has been in dressing rooms and at training grounds. Since saying that performances were an embarrassment and that there were players who should not be at the club, Monk has brought in three new forwards, played them a couple of times, before dropping or substituting all three. My opinion is that wholesale changes, alongside public criticism, when things are not going well on the pitch, is likely to lead to feelings of instability, again adding to low morale.

People whose morale is low tend not to perform well - whatever the walk of life they operate in. You are right, I've never been to the training ground; I have never set foot in the dressing room.

Players earn a lot more money than most of us. My opinion is that this is not relevant to the argument. Please explain.

My reservations about Monk really came to the surface when Grant McCann said that his squad had not been well treated before the game in January - which Hull won. Monk's response, "I don't know anything about that." My opinion - lack of responsibility, poor leadership, weak management.

Someone once said, "Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one but they think each other's stink." I could be completely wrong. Monk could lead Wednesday back into the Premiership for the first time in... what is it? Twenty years? A final opinion - he won't.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said. All I'll say is maybe the public criticism was a last resort after getting no reaction following discussions behind closed doors.

I really don't care what happens now. I've invested too much time, energy and emotion over the last few months. Sack him, don't sack him we'll still be served up the same old poo whoever is at the helm.

I still go and watch them but promotion in the next three years is a pipe dream unless the whole thing is torn down to the foundations.