EFL win appeal over Derby County.

[Sheff74]

20 minutes ago, Asio otus said:

Sorry but these stupid rules should not exist. WE did not cheat our owner cheated and we are the ones who suffer. Its owners who are committing the offence, players and fans suffer.Its s joke.

 

What you seem to be proposing, would be the most mind-bendingly complicated arrangement, and legal hornets nest possibe.

 

Essentially owners get to do what they want, with no regard whatsoever for financial regulations, essentially cheating, and should their asset (the club) benefit from it, only they as an individual should be punished.

 

What about the less well off owners and supporters of the clubs who lose out because of clubs with wealthier owners cheating? Do they then get some sort or recompense, or are they just told to suck it up. The lawyers would be having a field day, all over the place.

 

Chuffing hell, I have heard of laissez-faire, but this would take it to a new level.

 

At the end of the day, ask yourself how it is that the vast majority of teams can operate comfortably within the constraints and not fall foul of the regulations? Are you suggesting that they all lose out because of the few who can't be bothered?

[Nero]

4 minutes ago, Manwë said:

 

We lost to Huddersfield in the Play-offs, can you explain how the game was rigged in their favour?  Sheff Utd likewise.  Maybe explain how the game is currently rigged in the favour of Barnsley.

 

Derby Wednesday Birmingham Wolves are not 'cheating'.  They are cheating, you don't have to put it in quotation marks.  It's accepted by SWFC and the majority of our fans that we are cheaters, because we were caught cheating, so we cheated.  Not 'cheated'.

 

Why did they cheat?  Isn't it obvious?  Because they want the EPL and all that comes with it (including the parachute payments).

 

 

 

But we didn't cheat, as you put it, according to the EFL rules. We got the timing wrong. We sold the ground to ourselves for £60m and that was unbelievably, apparently fine. Our rule breaking was to do this a few weeks after we should have. We weren't trying to cheat the rules as they stood, its stupid sloppy business practice. Of course we did 'cheat'. Or maybe even cheat

 

And on Huddersfield or Barnsley. The vast majority of teams who go up, like this year, are doped on parachute payments and that is just a stone cold fact. And plucky Barnsley will be turning out their free transfers against the millionaires of Bournemouth funded by a Russian Oligarch despite having similar attendances historically. And having already seen Norwich and Watford, two absolutely bang average clubs and teams win yet another promotion. Norwich have been promoted 4 times in 9 years. Watford 2 in 3 years, Bournemouth might be 2 in 3. That's not right and it causes bigger and bigger risk taking to compete with these clubs - which is what the the P&S is designed to avoid.

 

Great that occasionally an honest spending team like United or Huddersfield get occasionally to join the gravy train. Whopadeedoo.

 

[@owlstalk]

5 minutes ago, Nero said:

 

But we didn't cheat, as you put it, according to the EFL rules. We got the timing wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bluesteel]

Maybe this explains why no one wants to buy them then. I thought it was just a case of the market being stagnant.

 

If this is the appeal then Derby can’t then appeal again I don’t think?

[Big Jack]

14 minutes ago, Manwë said:

 

There are places where the rules do not exist.  That place is called "Anywhere Outside the Football League".  I've made the point before and I'm happy to make it again, but if you think rules are stupid and don't want them applied, then don't take part in the competition that has such rules.  Wednesday could announce their resignation from the League today, and the stupid rules would no longer be applicable to us.  

 

Alternatively, lobby the Club (and other clubs) to amend the rules.  But don't be surprised if the majority of clubs don't want the same thing as you.    Either be in the tent weeing out, or be out of the tent weeing in the wind.

 

The rules are a joke absolutely and I stand by the fact, that all they are doing is putting money into lawyers pockets. The EFL and their FFP rules are not fit for purpose. The EFL needs massive reform, they have created this mess and allowed the majority of clubs to be owned by overseas businesses who have mostly zero interest in the communities the clubs serve. Fans are continually marganilised from their club, and EFL are totally responsible. I think the majority of fans want games to be decided on the pitch, not in the courts. The game needs reform or it will loose its core fan basis, following on from the pandemic now is the time for a reset. 

[Nero]

25 minutes ago, Manwë said:

 

There are places where the rules do not exist.  That place is called "Anywhere Outside the Football League".  I've made the point before and I'm happy to make it again, but if you think rules are stupid and don't want them applied, then don't take part in the competition that has such rules.  Wednesday could announce their resignation from the League today, and the stupid rules would no longer be applicable to us.  

 

Alternatively, lobby the Club (and other clubs) to amend the rules.  But don't be surprised if the majority of clubs don't want the same thing as you.    Either be in the tent weeing out, or be out of the tent weeing in the wind.

 

You're an interesting poster mate and I agree with what you say to a point.

 

I wonder though if you have read the EFL's governance review which I have posted here before because it eviscerates the current rules and governance regime - its jaw dropping.

 

https://www.efl.com/siteassets/image/201920/governance-reviews/governance-review.pdf

 

The whole the 'clubs voted for the rules' based argument is not the whole story.

Page 6 make that very clear;

 

There is a body of opinion (shared by some GWG members) that divisional FFP rules should have to be approved not just by 75% of the Clubs in the division affected, but also by a majority of all Clubs, to emphasise the fact that the EFL is a collective, and that any Club could be promoted/relegated into any division. However, that is not supported by the Championship Clubs, who do not think League One and League Two Clubs should have a say on the Profit & Sustainability Rules. And in any event the Premier League has made solidarity payments conditional upon the EFL adopting and applying the Profit & Sustainability Rules for the Championship. Therefore in reality it is the Premier League that decides the Championship FFP rules. Therefore, a majority of the GWG does not recommend any change on this point.

 

[Taximark]

1 hour ago, Nero said:

 

Ok, they broke the rules and deserve punishing. Like us.

 

But why are formerly decent clubs like Derby Wednesday Birmingham Wolves etc etc 'cheating' in the first place? And why is this only ''cheating' when its in the Championship?

 

They and we are trying to play against a rigged deck where teams like Bournemouth Watford etc can massively outspend them despite their poxy crowds. Or middling teams like Norwich and WBA raking in vast sums to go up and come down every year. Its all fkin pathetic.

 

Or we have stupid foreign owners who just want to make billions in the Premiership.

 

Competitive football would start with an end to parachutes being used for anything but existing costs and TV money going to the teams that people are actually paying to watch rather than the Prem landfill clubs like Burnley or Palace who get hundreds of millions to be fodder for the rich.

Im sure you know the very reason parachute payments are in place is to protect clubs with big earners dropping down into the league below where they don't get the income they get in the PL - I get that, however, football clubs very rarely keep it to one side and instead use it for new signings or wages and this is where its going wrong.

 

It all boils down to players wages, the game just cannot sustain it...I've said it for a long time getting involved in football unless you are a multi billionaire is a mugs game, it just isn't worth it anymore. 

[billyblack]

1 hour ago, Nero said:

We didnt have money mate.

Thats the whole point.

 

 

 

Well we didnt spend buttons in DC's first 2 seasons.

 

We spent a lot of money on players and wages. Just didnt know what we were doing with it.

[twolaptops]

No longer survival of the fittest............survival of the richest............and don't any of you Championship clubs try & buy your way into the "clique" set or we will get the EFL to punish you................football RIP

[billyblack]

1 hour ago, Nero said:

We spent about £60m more than the rules allow. 

We spent money we couldn't spend and tried to wangle our way out of it. Just like Derby.

So we did have money to spend?

 

The biggest regret and issue i have with DC is, this was the 1st time in many years where the club actually had a shot of achieving promotion, years and years without funding and fans bemoaning the lack of money we have to spend. Then like a fairy godmother along comes DC with his wad, problem is, he thought thats all he needed, throw cash at it and it will be good. Well it wasnt.

 

There was no thought around anything else regarding the club structure, strategy, governance or anything. The most galling thing is, with a proper plan and right people in place, with the money he had, we could have got promoted. Now its all too late, the wheels have fallen off. All this had nothing to do with FFP. Just one mans ineptitude and unwillingness to listen. This is what makes it worse for me.

[Nero]

1 minute ago, billyblack said:

So we did have money to spend?

 

The biggest regret and issue i have with DC is, this was the 1st time in many years where the club actually had a shot of achieving promotion, years and years without funding and fans bemoaning the lack of money we have to spend. Then like a fairy godmother along comes DC with his wad, problem is, he thought thats all he needed, throw cash at it and it will be good. Well it wasnt.

 

There was no thought around anything else regarding the club structure, strategy, governance or anything. The most galling thing is, with a proper plan and right people in place, with the money he had, we could have got promoted. Now its all too late, the wheels have fallen off. All this had nothing to do with FFP. Just one mans ineptitude and unwillingness to listen. This is what makes it worse for me.

Yes the original post was that Chansiri had money to spend. But SWFC didn't due to the EFL P&S rules and general common sense. He was spending/wasting money we couldn't afford.

[billyblack]

Just now, Nero said:

Yes the original post was that Chansiri had money to spend. But SWFC didn't due to the EFL P&S rules and general common sense. He was spending/wasting money we couldn't afford.

This is partly true, but nowhere near the whole picture.

 

By generating revenue and selling players you can rebuild and reinvest in the squad without breaking the rules. The EFL rules are just one part of it. There are many others that he failed at, badly.

[sheffsteel]

1 hour ago, Nero said:

 

Ok, they broke the rules and deserve punishing. Like us.

 

But why are formerly decent clubs like Derby Wednesday Birmingham Wolves etc etc 'cheating' in the first place? And why is this only ''cheating' when its in the Championship?

 

They and we are trying to play against a rigged deck where teams like Bournemouth Watford etc can massively outspend them despite their poxy crowds. Or middling teams like Norwich and WBA raking in vast sums to go up and come down every year. Its all fkin pathetic.

 

Or we have stupid foreign owners who just want to make billions in the Premiership.

 

Competitive football would start with an end to parachutes being used for anything but existing costs and TV money going to the teams that people are actually paying to watch rather than the Prem landfill clubs like Burnley or Palace who get hundreds of millions to be fodder for the rich.

The real problem is there are 2 separate organisations.

The EFL protected their own interest and have no loyalty towards the PL.

The PL protect their own interest and have no loyalty towards the EFL.

 

The PL clubs have all the money...and it’s proving impossible to persuade them to volunteer to give some of their millions to the lower divisions.

The whole point of parachute payments is to give promoted clubs a fighting chance of staying up.

Without parachute payments they’d struggle to attract any decent players....no one is going to accept a massive pay decrease based on relegation.

They’ll sign for someone else instead. 
 

The only power the EFL have is to refuse PL coming down  into their division and refuse promotion

but that would be cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 

The reason why Championship clubs are so tempted to over gamble (which is a form of cheating) is because the rewards are massive.

The financial distribution should be close to stop the gap widening....however the PL would probably say they earn 98% of the tv revenue so Sky are being very generous giving more to the EFL clubs....it’s a conundrum....they call it progress but it’s greed and I’m not sure where it’s heading.

 

[sheffsteel]

13 minutes ago, twolaptops said:

No longer survival of the fittest............survival of the richest............and don't any of you Championship clubs try & buy your way into the "clique" set or we will get the EFL to punish you................football RIP

The EFL aren’t a seperste entity....they are “the clubs”, it’s the clubs with the power to change whatever they want.

Its the clubs that decide and agree the rules....the EFL is just their to enforce the agreed rules on behalf of the clubs.

 

 

[Guest Mcguigan]

50 minutes ago, Nero said:

 

But we didn't cheat, as you put it, according to the EFL rules. We got the timing wrong. We sold the ground to ourselves for £60m and that was unbelievably, apparently fine. Our rule breaking was to do this a few weeks after we should have. We weren't trying to cheat the rules as they stood, its stupid sloppy business practice. Of course we did 'cheat'. Or maybe even cheat

 

And on Huddersfield or Barnsley. The vast majority of teams who go up, like this year, are doped on parachute payments and that is just a stone cold fact. And plucky Barnsley will be turning out their free transfers against the millionaires of Bournemouth funded by a Russian Oligarch despite having similar attendances historically. And having already seen Norwich and Watford, two absolutely bang average clubs and teams win yet another promotion. Norwich have been promoted 4 times in 9 years. Watford 2 in 3 years, Bournemouth might be 2 in 3. That's not right and it causes bigger and bigger risk taking to compete with these clubs - which is what the the P&S is designed to avoid.

 

Great that occasionally an honest spending team like United or Huddersfield get occasionally to join the gravy train. Whopadeedoo.

 

No it's not.

 

Since parachute payments came in, there have been 42 promotions spots available. 25 of those have been taken by clubs with no parachute payments, 16 with parachute payments and the play offs this season to come.

[Harrysgame]

1 hour ago, nbupperthongowl said:

-24 possibly in the championship.....12 for P&S and another 12 for administration....

Maybe this is why Alonso has stalled, want to pick it up for €1.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Harrysgame said:

Maybe this is why Alonso has stalled, want to pick it up for €1.

 

Why would Mel Morris risk admin and lose his sale though? 

[kobayashi]

If Derby are penalised points then but not for this season then I would expect SWFC to enquire as to why two clubs that had their hearings and appeals heard between the end of the last season and the end of the current season have had penalties applied to different seasons.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Mcguigan said:

No it's not.

 

Since parachute payments came in, there have been 42 promotions spots available. 25 of those have been taken by clubs with no parachute payments, 16 with parachute payments and the play offs this season to come.

 

But it is the parachute payments that others receive that at least in part cause other clubs to overspend in order to try and compete with them in terms of transfer and wages.

 

How many clubs in the Championship are running at a profit? 

[Django]

Hopefully they’ll get docked next year. Could do without any big clubs in league 1 next year