Chansiri - The Beginning of the End

[HarrowbyOwl]

8 minutes ago, Geedee said:

I wish the regulator good luck.

They are going to need it they are up against some powerful people with very good legal teams.

 

Wednesday are sadly small potatoes in this. The bigger fights are further up the football pyramid.

You are right, but most of those fights will be about financial redistribution. The stuff that affects us - poor owner, poor governance, poor financial planning, poor fan engagement - are not a problem for the big clubs. They want the regulator's powers to be as strong as possible in those areas. The EPL don't want to be handing down more money to clubs in the Championship that are not well run

[akbuk]

13 hours ago, Lawrie’s Left Peg said:

Please name / highlight one actual legally binding power that the regulator will have to implement change. to educate me. 

A Lawers dream

[akbuk]

15 hours ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

See Clause 43: Ownership removal orders

Maybe he would say OK put your trustees in and run the club and here's my invoice for the rent of the stadium 

[Nero]

6 minutes ago, akbuk said:

Maybe he would say OK put your trustees in and run the club and here's my invoice for the rent of the stadium 

It's our biggest problem no doubt.

Derby found that out.

Nobody will ever be able to do this again but he has some leverage because the EFL inexplicably allowed this to happen.

 

[Plonk]

Some very knowledgeable posters on this. Thank you to those that understand it for taking time to explain how it might work.

I'm still cynical, but at least better informed. cheers 

[Flat Owl]

On 20/03/2024 at 00:27, Furious George said:

Remember that point in our history when he thought he was being really smart and asking fans to fund the club? 

 

That's going to come back and bite him so, so much in the future. Beautiful. 

I haven’t got a problem with helping to fund our club.

 

Provided the owner doesn’t pìss money up the wall for example, paying agents and players to sit out their contracts or failing to renew contracts of potentially valuable assets.

 

 

[SiJ]

1 hour ago, Geedee said:

I wish the regulator good luck.

They are going to need it they are up against some powerful people with very good legal teams.

 

Wednesday are sadly small potatoes in this. The bigger fights are further up the football pyramid.

Basically, the Premier League. 

 

 

[HarrowbyOwl]

14 hours ago, Lawrie’s Left Peg said:

Please name / highlight one actual legally binding power that the regulator will have to implement change. to educate me. 

Here are just a few.

 

SCHEDULE 9: Sanctions

 

SANCTIONS RELATING TO INFORMATION

·         Censure statements

·         Financial penalties

 

Section 77 Offences

·         Destroying or falsifying information a person is required to give to the IFR

·         Giving false or misleading information the IFR in connection with any of its functions under this Act

·         Obstruction an officer of the IFR

 

Penalties for Section 77 offences

 A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding the general limit in a magistrates’ court, to a fine or to both;

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years, to a fine, or to both.

 

SANCTIONS RELATING TO RELEVANT INFRINGEMENTS

·         Censure statements

·         Appointment of a skilled person

·         Financial penalties

·         Injunctive relief

·         Suspension or revocation of operating license

 

For the rest read the bill and educate yourself.

[moffat_owl]

20 hours ago, Goatboy said:

Even though it's there in black and white, it just doesnt feel likely it would ever happen.

 

Its one thing giving a regulator the power, but its another thing them actually using it. In fact they would do everything possible to avoid it imo. Unless their was an immediate risk of losing a club.  

 

First time it gets applied, it will probably end up going to judicial review

100% agree.

 

Very very unlikely that it would ever happen,then as you say judicial review.

 

Also where is the money for these trustees to come from.

 

DC will say he's got no access to any more funds.

 

Legal nightmare, meal ticket for life for those bewigged grifters aka lawyers.

[nile]

3 hours ago, Lawrie’s Left Peg said:

Are any of the businesses you regulate owned by an individual? Can you legally force that individual to sell their business? Can you legally force that individual to comply with your regulations? How was the regulated CEO of Thames Water paid £850,000 with a bonus of 1.3m, paying dividends of £37.5m, accruing £14bn of debt whilst simultaneously breaching regulations and increasing the prices its customers pay by in excess of 5%?? 

Yes they are, infact I was at one yesterday that was owned by an individual.

No we can not force the individual to sell the business but I can force the individual/company into taking actions to rectify any wrong doings and that is legally binding, with heavy consequences if not compliant.

my biggest concern with any sanctions needed against football club owners is that they are indeed against them and not the club.

 

Regulating football clubs is long over due, it can’t be left to carry on as it is.

 

I can’t answer about the water company as I know nothing about it, sorry.

[@owlstalk]

BRING IT ON

[HarrowbyOwl]

30 minutes ago, moffat_owl said:

100% agree.

 

Very very unlikely that it would ever happen,then as you say judicial review.

 

Also where is the money for these trustees to come from.

 

DC will say he's got no access to any more funds.

 

Legal nightmare, meal ticket for life for those bewigged grifters aka lawyers.

It is already anticipated that decisions of the Regulator will be appealable on judicial review, focusing on whether the Regulator acted within its powers, and full merits review in appeals against more punitive regulatory sanctions before the Competition Appeal Tribunal. That is how it should be. The Regulator cannot act arbtrarily or exceed its powers under the Act.

[akbuk]

2 hours ago, Nero said:

It's our biggest problem no doubt.

Derby found that out.

Nobody will ever be able to do this again but he has some leverage because the EFL inexplicably allowed this to happen.

 

Nobody had the powers to stop him and he protected his own investments, most businesses do

[Geedee]

1 hour ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

You are right, but most of those fights will be about financial redistribution. The stuff that affects us - poor owner, poor governance, poor financial planning, poor fan engagement - are not a problem for the big clubs. They want the regulator's powers to be as strong as possible in those areas. The EPL don't want to be handing down more money to clubs in the Championship that are not well run

Good reply. I think that poosibly the typical Wednesday bad luck' problem will be here to haunt us again as I dont see how what has happened in the past can be dealt with by a new bill. Yes new regulations can improve things in the future but the issues that we have currently are not going to be solved 

 

[Lawrie’s Left Peg]

8 hours ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

Here are just a few.

 

SCHEDULE 9: Sanctions

 

SANCTIONS RELATING TO INFORMATION

·         Censure statements

·         Financial penalties

 

Section 77 Offences

·         Destroying or falsifying information a person is required to give to the IFR

·         Giving false or misleading information the IFR in connection with any of its functions under this Act

·         Obstruction an officer of the IFR

 

Penalties for Section 77 offences

 A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding the general limit in a magistrates’ court, to a fine or to both;

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years, to a fine, or to both.

 

SANCTIONS RELATING TO RELEVANT INFRINGEMENTS

·         Censure statements

·         Appointment of a skilled person

·         Financial penalties

·         Injunctive relief

·         Suspension or revocation of operating license

 

For the rest read the bill and educate yourself.

So, in summary. No legal powers to force an individual to sell their business. Thanks for confirming my original point. 

[Lawrie’s Left Peg]

7 hours ago, nile said:

Yes they are, infact I was at one yesterday that was owned by an individual.

No we can not force the individual to sell the business but I can force the individual/company into taking actions to rectify any wrong doings and that is legally binding, with heavy consequences if not compliant.

my biggest concern with any sanctions needed against football club owners is that they are indeed against them and not the club.

 

Regulating football clubs is long over due, it can’t be left to carry on as it is.

 

I can’t answer about the water company as I know nothing about it, sorry.

So if I understand correctly, the regulator will have the power to fine the owner.

The EFL already has that power. The EFL imposes financial penalties for financial misconduct and sporting penalties (points deductions) if it deems a club gains an unfair advantage. Neither has changed Chansiri’s behaviour. 
How will the regulator prevent Chansiri passing on penalties to the paying customer or reducing his investment in the club as a result? 
I’m not trying to devalue your industry. Nor am I trying to be argumentative. I simply don’t see why we should expect a government regulator to be able to change Chansiri (underpinned by the lack of real influence demonstrated by government regulators in other industries). 

[HarrowbyOwl]

54 minutes ago, Lawrie’s Left Peg said:

So, in summary. No legal powers to force an individual to sell their business. Thanks for confirming my original point. 

43 Ownership removal orders
35(1) The IFR may make an order containing such provision as the IFR considers appropriate to secure that, by the end of the period specified in the order, a person who is an owner of a regulated club (“P”) has ceased to be an owner of the club.

[HarrowbyOwl]

46 minutes ago, Lawrie’s Left Peg said:

So if I understand correctly, the regulator will have the power to fine the owner.

A range of sanctions are listed in the Bill, not just fines:

• Censure statements
• Appointment of a skilled person
• Financial penalties
• Injunctive relief
• Suspension or revocation of operating license
• Ownership removal orders

[kirksandallowl]

12 hours ago, Nero said:

You are missing the point (because you are blinded by Offwat Offcom etc.).

 

The IRF won't legally force the owner to sell their business, they will legally remove their licence to be part of the competition (eventually - after trying to persuade the owner to comply). Thus making the business effectively worthless.

 

I work with businesses under several regulatory regimes and the businesses themselves make sure they comply or they die. Its not that complicated.

 

The alternative is self regulation which the EPL and EFL are operating at the moment and is failing. 

 

So what you’re saying is, if clubs have a poo owner who refuses to sell when pressured by the regulator then the regulator will effectively end the club. Sounds ideal. 

[Utah Owl]

On 20/03/2024 at 14:55, nile said:

It is all in the legislation, proof of funds, proof of out goings/incomings, organisation structure, they will have to be 100% transparent.

 

I regulate the biggest businesses in the world for work and the businesses take it very seriously, it is not something any owner can take lightly.

FCA?