ENGLAND VS GERMANY - Official Matchday Thread

[Guest LondonOwl313]

10 minutes ago, new zealand owl said:

So by your logic Italia 90 under Robson was par or even failure as we were expected to beat Belgium and cameroon?

 

Many Previous managers haven't reached 'par' have they? So it was fine to lose to Portugal in 04 and 06 because of their name? Each time they didn't go on to win it. Same with 98, Argentina went out in the next round. Countless examples of previous england managers hiding behind an exit against a big name.

 

You can talk about the draw all you want, I honestly believe spirit and organization carries you a long way in tournament football and Southgate is proving this for the second time.

 

I do have criticisms of Southgate, I don't see what he sees in Rice and I think he overly relies on sterling. But he has achieved good things in this job, I find it baffling why people think he hasn't.

 

Will he achieve great things? Maybe not but the next person in the hot seat is picking up england in a very healthy state. 

 

 

Italia 90 was before my time but would say yeah the semis were par for the course looking at the fixtures. 
 

Euro 96 we beat Holland, got past Spain and then lost to Germany.. a success overall but disappointing to not win it.

 

France 98, lost to Argentina on pens.. 2002 lost to Brazil, 2004 and 2006 lost to Portugal on pens.. 2010 got beat by a superior Germany. 2012 lost to Italy on pens.. 

 

Theres only really 2016 where we lost a knockout game where we really shouldn’t have.. the rest of the time our exits have been in tight games against comparable or better sides.

 

Right now, England are one of the better sides. Last World Cup we lost 3 games against better or equal opposition and beat who we should.. got an easy route as other big teams went out early.

 

This time around, I think we can win it and might only need to really put in a performance in the final. It’s a little different to other tournaments where we’d have had to beat about 3 top sides who were at least as good as us on paper to do it, which is why we never did.

 

I’d back Garry Monk to have got the results at big tournaments that Southgate has.

[The Wall]

I've been critical of Southgate, but he absolutely nailed it today.

Great performance from England

[FreshOwl]

9 minutes ago, eightbelow said:

Christ, I think Spain are really good! I just think that the margins at the very top are so thin and I can make a case for England in 82, 86, 90 and 2002 for winning the World Cup but we couldn't win games that we maybe should have. It looks like this group can win close games against good opposition and its been a long time since we could say that.

I get what you’re saying. 
 

I think we are in a different era of football now. Top national teams don’t seem to have that mental toughness or spine that would drag them through tournaments anymore 

 

It seems to be more individual players involved in moments, rather than a collective team. Because of this, it opens up opportunities for the other nations

 

France with desailly, vieira, Zidane, Henry 

Italy with Buffon, cannavaro, pirlo, del piero

Spain with casillas, Puyol, iniesta, Torres 

You don’t see a national side these days and think they’ve got such a strong understanding and togetherness, an unbreakable spine 

Anyone can be got at 

[new zealand owl]

17 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

Italia 90 was before my time but would say yeah the semis were par for the course looking at the fixtures. 
 

Euro 96 we beat Holland, got past Spain and then lost to Germany.. a success overall but disappointing to not win it.

 

France 98, lost to Argentina on pens.. 2002 lost to Brazil, 2004 and 2006 lost to Portugal on pens.. 2010 got beat by a superior Germany. 2012 lost to Italy on pens.. 

 

Theres only really 2016 where we lost a knockout game where we really shouldn’t have.. the rest of the time our exits have been in tight games against comparable or better sides.

 

Right now, England are one of the better sides. Last World Cup we lost 3 games against better or equal opposition and beat who we should.. got an easy route as other big teams went out early.

 

This time around, I think we can win it and might only need to really put in a performance in the final. It’s a little different to other tournaments where we’d have had to beat about 3 top sides who were at least as good as us on paper to do it, which is why we never did.

 

I’d back Garry Monk to have got the results at big tournaments that Southgate has.

Line those portugal sides up against ours in 04 and 06 and you can't argue they were better than us. Even if they were comparable then don't you think we should've won one of them? Same with Germany in 90 and 96.  Way too convenient to look at a big nation and say yeah that's fine they beat us, we took it to penalties...better luck next time.

 

I've got no doubt that Sven, hodgson, mclaren, maybe even venables and certainly cappello would've messed up against at least 2 of Colombia/Sweden and Germany knock out games.  Southgate didn't because of the way he sets the team up and the unity in the squad.  

 

2002 is another great example of a draw opening up. If we beat 10 man brazil then we get Turkey and a terrible german side in the final....but we didn't.  Of course Brazil were a very good team but we had an opportunity and blew it with a team full of talented players. It's the small margins that Southgate has got right.  Remember in 2018 we had one of the most inexperienced squads in terms of average caps and still finished 4th. This time round we have one of the youngest squads and southgate is blooding players like phillips because he doesn't have the fear of failure that other previous managers have had.

 

Southgate is a 7/10 manager, not one of the greatest international team managers by any means but compared to the amount of 5/10 managers we've had over the last 50 years, i see that as a real positive

 

 

 

[Inspector Lestrade]

6 hours ago, eightbelow said:

It never ceases to amaze me how little football fans understand the game they watch week in and week out. Some gloriously stupid comments in this thread. I don't understand the negative reaction to the team, the players and the manager. Its one thing to make critical comments based on evidence and an understanding of what the goal and intended outcome is, just slating people for the sake of it gets boring.

 

 

You will have to give a lecture on football, maybe OT can sponsor it.  

[Jim]

9 hours ago, thewookieisdown said:

One thing I never understand. 

 

A creative sub is brought on and makes decisive interventions. The response from some is to say that shows the player should have been on from the start.

 

Really odd. 

 

 

Haven’t England won the last three games Grealish has started and he’s been very influential in those games. Put it this way if that was Mount he’d be in every time or more often than not he is?

[Raminpeace]

We eventually got going v Germany after a fairly flat first hour. But we lacked creativity in that period (as  against Scotland). v Germany we also stood off and let them have the ball for long spells which is a bit odd for a supposedly tenacious line up.
 

It looked like one goal would decide it. If Werner had scored we’d have had a tough task.

We look a much better - less fearful - outfit with Grealish on.

 

If Southgate reversed it and played grealish for 70 minutes and then swapped him for an extra defender to defend a lead, folk wouldn’t be telling us that that was tactical wizardry by Southgate too.

[thommowl]

If you don't concede you can't lose, will anybody be upset with how we've played if we win the whole shabang 

[thewookieisdown]

It's worth saying that yesterday was the second game I can remember where England have beaten one of the top footballing countries in a knock out game. Spain on pens in 1996 was the previous one. 

 

That's a memory going back to 1980, but I'm not aware of any such wins after 1966.

 

We're not generally a top rank footballing power for well established reasons (historic disdain for technique and fitness and rigorous management cf UK industrial history passim; and then the pivot to club domination).  In the long sweep, yesterday was a notable (and to my mind surprising) event. 

[darra]

10 hours ago, Lincowl said:

Disagree, worst German team for a long time and were lucky to qualify from their group. The quality of all the big teams seems worse though to be honest so don’t doubt this England team could make the most of the favourable path to the final.

Germany hasn't recovered from about 7 players retiring from international football a few years ago. Add to that Lowe seems to have lost the plot a bit over the last couple of years especially with his team selections. Last night was his last game so it will a bit of a transitional period for them. Germany hasn't been a "force" in international football for a while now. In comparison to past years, they've been poor in the last few tournaments. 

[Guest Hornsby]

10 hours ago, new zealand owl said:

So by your logic Italia 90 under Robson was par or even failure as we were expected to beat Belgium and cameroon?

 

Many Previous managers haven't reached 'par' have they? So it was fine to lose to Portugal in 04 and 06 because of their name? Each time they didn't go on to win it. Same with 98, Argentina went out in the next round. Countless examples of previous england managers hiding behind an exit against a big name.

 

You can talk about the draw all you want, I honestly believe spirit and organization carries you a long way in tournament football and Southgate is proving this for the second time.

 

I do have criticisms of Southgate, I don't see what he sees in Rice and I think he overly relies on sterling. But he has achieved good things in this job, I find it baffling why people think he hasn't.

 

Will he achieve great things? Maybe not but the next person in the hot seat is picking up england in a very healthy state. 

 

 

It was senior players who changed formation and tactics for Italia 90, not Robson.

 

 

[Guest LondonOwl313]

1 hour ago, thewookieisdown said:

It's worth saying that yesterday was the second game I can remember where England have beaten one of the top footballing countries in a knock out game. Spain on pens in 1996 was the previous one. 

 

That's a memory going back to 1980, but I'm not aware of any such wins after 1966.

 

We're not generally a top rank footballing power for well established reasons (historic disdain for technique and fitness and rigorous management cf UK industrial history passim; and then the pivot to club domination).  In the long sweep, yesterday was a notable (and to my mind surprising) event. 

You’re right, yesterday was our first knockout win in 90 mins in Euro history. But I think that’s a bit inconsequential as it’s all about how good our team is relative to the other teams in the competition.

 

When the PL first came about and we attracted all the foreign players it seemed to be detrimental to the national team as we had a smaller pool of players compared to other countries. But over time, more and more quality players have come to England... you only have to look through most of the big nations squads and loads of their players play for English clubs.. apart from Real, Barca, Bayern and a few at PSG or the top Italian clubs practically all the best ones do.

 
That raises the bar which our young players have to be at to break through. Plus on top of that, the best coaches have moved here too. Guardiola, Klopp, Mourinho, Tuchel, Rodgers, Ancelotti.. the best of the best.

 

This generation of England players are much better on the ball and can control games easier, probably down to the coaching and/or the increased competition they’ve gone through to make it in the game. We’re better than the other teams in the tournament, which wasn’t the case in prior tournaments.

 

Generally when you’re the better side it makes sense to try and attack your opponent because law of averages means you’ll win more than you lose.. if this was a league season with 3 points for a win then that’s definitely the case. These tactics would yield worse results overall than actually going for it and trying to put games to bed.

 

I can see in knockout football it might be different as you don’t want an off day and a loss. But at the same time, if we went out and tried to beat Ukraine and Denmark/Czechs by 3 or 4 we’d have a better chance of winning than by leaving the possibility of a 0-0 and penalty exit there.

 

We really don’t need 7 defensive players on the pitch. 5 and 5 would be the right balance.. so many attacking players we could bring in.

 

How the draw has opened up now it would be a total failure to at least not make the final. We could end up winning the whole thing despite not even utilising our teams strengths.. and Southgate will get the plaudits if we do.

[OWLERTON GHOST]

10 hours ago, FreshOwl said:

We dragged Germany down to our level today, and it worked. 

They were already below our level anyway ....

The boogie man was at it again last night ......

Theres really no shame in the man ...

And Matalan man shook the offending boogie hand at full time !!!!

The dirty German Bstard....

 

[Guest LondonOwl313]

9 minutes ago, OWLERTON GHOST said:

They were already below our level anyway ....

The boogie man was at it again last night ......

Theres really no shame in the man ...

And Matalan man shook the offending boogie hand at full time !!!!

The dirty German Bstard....

 

 

[@owlstalk]

3 hours ago, Raminpeace said:

We eventually got going v Germany after a fairly flat first hour. But we lacked creativity in that period (as  against Scotland). v Germany we also stood off and let them have the ball for long spells which is a bit odd for a supposedly tenacious line up.
 

It looked like one goal would decide it. If Werner had scored we’d have had a tough task.

We look a much better - less fearful - outfit with Grealish on.

 

If Southgate reversed it and played grealish for 70 minutes and then swapped him for an extra defender to defend a lead, folk wouldn’t be telling us that that was tactical wizardry by Southgate too.

 

If we win it’s all irrelevant 

[Guest hirstysfags]

25 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

 

Fantastic!

[SwellOwl]

In Southgate we trust..  it may not be the most exciting but 0 goals conceded in 4 games and now into QF.

 

I couldn't give a damn how we do it, just win!

[thewookieisdown]

46 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

You’re right, yesterday was our first knockout win in 90 mins in Euro history. But I think that’s a bit inconsequential as it’s all about how good our team is relative to the other teams in the competition.

 

When the PL first came about and we attracted all the foreign players it seemed to be detrimental to the national team as we had a smaller pool of players compared to other countries. But over time, more and more quality players have come to England... you only have to look through most of the big nations squads and loads of their players play for English clubs.. apart from Real, Barca, Bayern and a few at PSG or the top Italian clubs practically all the best ones do.

 
That raises the bar which our young players have to be at to break through. Plus on top of that, the best coaches have moved here too. Guardiola, Klopp, Mourinho, Tuchel, Rodgers, Ancelotti.. the best of the best.

 

This generation of England players are much better on the ball and can control games easier, probably down to the coaching and/or the increased competition they’ve gone through to make it in the game. We’re better than the other teams in the tournament, which wasn’t the case in prior tournaments.

 

Generally when you’re the better side it makes sense to try and attack your opponent because law of averages means you’ll win more than you lose.. if this was a league season with 3 points for a win then that’s definitely the case. These tactics would yield worse results overall than actually going for it and trying to put games to bed.

 

I can see in knockout football it might be different as you don’t want an off day and a loss. But at the same time, if we went out and tried to beat Ukraine and Denmark/Czechs by 3 or 4 we’d have a better chance of winning than by leaving the possibility of a 0-0 and penalty exit there.

 

We really don’t need 7 defensive players on the pitch. 5 and 5 would be the right balance.. so many attacking players we could bring in.

 

How the draw has opened up now it would be a total failure to at least not make the final. We could end up winning the whole thing despite not even utilising our teams strengths.. and Southgate will get the plaudits if we do.

Much of that's fair. I don't particularly have a strong view on Southgate. He's obviously a decent and nice guy, and adult in the room when so many people in public life has lost their minds, and the nation seem bent on some form of slow suicide.

 

That doesn't in itself make him a good manager. On the other hand, he is better than most of his predecessors this century, and the really top managers are going to want to do club. And yesterday, I thought he got it spot on

[Big Jack]

Whatever people think of Southgate, he has got the team winning matches. Thats what its all about and should we win the tournament ,which is a big ask, he will deserve all the accolades he gets.

[Southie_Owl]

Just now, Asio otus said:

Whatever people think of Southgate, he has got the team winning matches. Thats what its all about and should we win the tournament ,which is a big ask, he will deserve all the accolades he gets.

This ^. Imagine those who will actually say “yeah we won the first trophy for 55 years, but it’s disappointing as we could have done it playing more attacking football if it wasn’t for Southgate”.   Seriously?  People talk about this being a golden generation, but we’ve had others before.  The team with Beckham, Scholes, Terry, Ferdinand, Owen, Lampard, Gerrard, Cole etc was better and they couldn’t achieve a win.  Winning a tournament doesn’t just happen easily.  
 

And those saying we should have been more attacking against the Germans,  France with all their attacking talent only beat them 1-0, Portugal (with better centre backs than England) conceded 4 times by being attack minded,  so I’m pretty happy with how Southgate is managing the games so far.