ENGLAND VS GERMANY - Official Matchday Thread

[Teddy Nickelarse]

28 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

So he comes on and makes the difference in a game where we created nothing before that, but apparently that means we wouldn’t have been better with him on from the start?

Not necessarily. Southgate got it right IMO.

[Ash77]

24 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

The team selection was awful, the result doesn’t change that. We created absolutely nothing until Grealish came on.. and Pickford kept us in it with a couple of good saves.

 

Southgate is a bad manager, this is the first good result we’ve had in a big game under him. 
 

It’s fine saying in hindsight with the victory that he got it right. But was a 50/50 game until the last 20 mins. Personally if we hadn’t won I’d have been fuming with him had we gone out and not even tried to put our attacking talent to good use.

 

Totally agree, was 50/50 till grealish came on even though germany were very average, but southgates luck is making him look pretty good for now, like the easy draw at last world cup did. 

 

Thing is how many top managers succeed in long run by being defensive and bringing best players on for last 20mins etc? 

 

Pep/klopp dont being k.d.b/salah on for last 20mins or keep it tight for 70mins before trying to nick one, its what you expect from allardyce/pulis etc at lower clubs.

 

Delighted to be through but still have nagging doubts he can get best out of a talented squad, always got a chance with a strong defence and game changers on bench tho, even if it might be painful viewing at times like vs scotland!

 

 

[@owlstalk]

41 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

So he comes on and makes the difference in a game where we created nothing before that, but apparently that means we wouldn’t have been better with him on from the start?

 

Yes

[eightbelow]

42 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

The team selection was awful, the result doesn’t change that. We created absolutely nothing until Grealish came on.. and Pickford kept us in it with a couple of good saves.

 

Southgate is a bad manager, this is the first good result we’ve had in a big game under him. 
 

It’s fine saying in hindsight with the victory that he got it right. But was a 50/50 game until the last 20 mins. Personally if we hadn’t won I’d have been fuming with him had we gone out and not even tried to put our attacking talent to good use.

Lets look at this tournament so far, we beat Croatia pretty comfortably and they pushed Spin all the way, we then beat the Czechs and again were comfortable and they beat the Dutch, today we beat Germany who destroyed Portugal. We also went 2-0 up and held onto the lead which Spain and France failed to do. We haven't conceded and yes, big games are tight and are usually won late on. You cant play all your attackers and not have defenders, that wont work as Brazil's 82 team shows us.

Why do you think the team selection was awful, he positioned Shaw and Trippier to cut their wing backs out and used a back three to allow our wing backs the opportunity to get forward. I do think that Rice and Phillips could be a little more adventurous but we don't have a deep lying player who has shown that they can perform at that level. Grealish is a great weapon to have coming off the bench but hasn't yet shown that he can play in a game that big and make the difference. What line up and plan would you have used going into todays game?

[Guest LondonOwl313]

8 minutes ago, Ash77 said:

 

Totally agree, was 50/50 till grealish came on even though germany were very average, but southgates luck is making him look pretty good for now, like the easy draw at last world cup did. 

 

Thing is how many top managers succeed in long run by being defensive and bringing best players on for last 20mins etc? 

 

Pep/klopp dont being k.d.b/salah on for last 20mins or keep it tight for 70mins before trying to nick one, its what you expect from allardyce/pulis etc at lower clubs.

 

Delighted to be through but still have nagging doubts he can get best out of a talented squad, always got a chance with a strong defence and game changers on bench tho, even if it might be painful viewing at times like vs scotland!

 

 

I think we can win it, and he will get lots of plaudits for doing so obviously.

 

We should have too much for Sweden/Ukraine and then Denmark/Czechs, only the final is a difficult game on paper. But there’s a nagging doubt because I could see us drawing one of those games if we continue being so negative and then pens are a lottery.

 

The fact is, you look down the squads and I think France had the best one then England. The others are all a bit transitional or have injury worries over key players (De Bruyne). 
 

we should be putting teams to bed by a few goals and having the score line so tight leaves a lot more to luck. Today it’s a different game if one of those good German chances goes in and it would leave you with a bitter taste if you lose and Grealish/Mount/Foden/Sancho/Rashfordetc all don’t get a look in.

 

If this were a league season it’s the equivalent of Monk’s Wednesday being third at Xmas 

[eightbelow]

13 minutes ago, Ash77 said:

 

Totally agree, was 50/50 till grealish came on even though germany were very average, but southgates luck is making him look pretty good for now, like the easy draw at last world cup did. 

 

Thing is how many top managers succeed in long run by being defensive and bringing best players on for last 20mins etc? 

 

Pep/klopp dont being k.d.b/salah on for last 20mins or keep it tight for 70mins before trying to nick one, its what you expect from allardyce/pulis etc at lower clubs.

 

Delighted to be through but still have nagging doubts he can get best out of a talented squad, always got a chance with a strong defence and game changers on bench tho, even if it might be painful viewing at times like vs scotland!

 

 

I think comparing club football to international football is challenging, the richer clubs have significantly more talent that many of the teams they play. That German team on the field today is still a very good team.

[Lincowl]

4 minutes ago, eightbelow said:

I think comparing club football to international football is challenging, the richer clubs have significantly more talent that many of the teams they play. That German team on the field today is still a very good team.

Disagree, worst German team for a long time and were lucky to qualify from their group. The quality of all the big teams seems worse though to be honest so don’t doubt this England team could make the most of the favourable path to the final.

[Guest LondonOwl313]

4 minutes ago, eightbelow said:

Lets look at this tournament so far, we beat Croatia pretty comfortably and they pushed Spin all the way, we then beat the Czechs and again were comfortable and they beat the Dutch, today we beat Germany who destroyed Portugal. We also went 2-0 up and held onto the lead which Spain and France failed to do. We haven't conceded and yes, big games are tight and are usually won late on. You cant play all your attackers and not have defenders, that wont work as Brazil's 82 team shows us.

Why do you think the team selection was awful, he positioned Shaw and Trippier to cut their wing backs out and used a back three to allow our wing backs the opportunity to get forward. I do think that Rice and Phillips could be a little more adventurous but we don't have a deep lying player who has shown that they can perform at that level. Grealish is a great weapon to have coming off the bench but hasn't yet shown that he can play in a game that big and make the difference. What line up and plan would you have used going into todays game?

Croatia are very average and not as good as at the World Cup 3 years ago.. they didn’t try and take the game to us at Wembley knowing that the other two games were where they were going to qualify. Spain are quite poor.. they drew with Sweden and Poland, not the same side that they were either. And they dominated Croatia completely for most of the game.. gifted them the opener, then comfortably went 3-1 in front and conceded two late goals. So I can’t see how Croatia are that good.

 

We were too defensive. I’m not saying we should go and play all our attackers, but a balanced side. I’d play 4 defenders and a defensive mid, then a couple of more attacking mids, couple of wingers and a striker. So 5 defensive minded ones and 5 attack minded. Today we played at home and had 7 defensive players and 3 attacking ones, and it showed because we couldn’t link play well in midfield at all.. so boring to watch.

 

Would play only 1 of Rice and Phillips, don’t need both.. Grealish makes a difference week in week out in the PL, look at the stats for Villa with and without him. And for England he’s the best player on the pitch in most games, just using your eyes.

 

Obviously the result is all that counts in the end but we’re one of the top 3 sides in this tournament out of 32, so would expect to win most games. It’s like Man City playing 7 defenders and trying to win 1-0 every week.. they might manage it but they’d do far better taking it to teams they’re better than and over a long run of games they’d win more than they’d lose doing so.

[new zealand owl]

8 minutes ago, eightbelow said:

Lets look at this tournament so far, we beat Croatia pretty comfortably and they pushed Spin all the way, we then beat the Czechs and again were comfortable and they beat the Dutch, today we beat Germany who destroyed Portugal. We also went 2-0 up and held onto the lead which Spain and France failed to do. We haven't conceded and yes, big games are tight and are usually won late on. You cant play all your attackers and not have defenders, that wont work as Brazil's 82 team shows us.

Why do you think the team selection was awful, he positioned Shaw and Trippier to cut their wing backs out and used a back three to allow our wing backs the opportunity to get forward. I do think that Rice and Phillips could be a little more adventurous but we don't have a deep lying player who has shown that they can perform at that level. Grealish is a great weapon to have coming off the bench but hasn't yet shown that he can play in a game that big and make the difference. What line up and plan would you have used going into todays game?

Bingo. The world champions conceded 3 and a missed penalty to an average Swiss side. You can't play well throughout a tournament, it just doesn't happen. So if you don't play well you have to stay in the game and be solid.

 

I couldn't give a flying f$*k about expansive attacking football as long as we win.  Its clear Southgate has a plan for us to be a cautious, possession based team with a positive team spirit. He is executing that.  

 

We are a win against ukraine/Sweden away from two consecutive semi finals in major tournaments.   Southgate is on the brink of being England's most successful manager in half a century, if he isn't already.

[latemodelchild]

Reight game that. We won. I couldn't be any more happy. Still smiling. 

[MF TAZ]

I think I finally forgive saouthgate for 96

[MF TAZ]

And losing to Croatia 

[Sheff74]

Great to finally beat Germany in a tournament again, it's been far too long coming.

 

An honest assessment of the England team however, is that whilst effective, they are incredibly dull to watch.

 

I worry that Denmark could have far too much for us as well, assuming we meet them in the semis.

[Guest LondonOwl313]

12 minutes ago, new zealand owl said:

Bingo. The world champions conceded 3 and a missed penalty to an average Swiss side. You can't play well throughout a tournament, it just doesn't happen. So if you don't play well you have to stay in the game and be solid.

 

I couldn't give a flying f$*k about expansive attacking football as long as we win.  Its clear Southgate has a plan for us to be a cautious, possession based team with a positive team spirit. He is executing that.  

 

We are a win against ukraine/Sweden away from two consecutive semi finals in major tournaments.   Southgate is on the brink of being England's most successful manager in half a century, if he isn't already.

But beating Germany aside, of the other 9 games we’ll have played to get to two semi finals all of the results are totally par for the course. Any competent manager would get those results so does that really mean he’s the best manager we’ve had or have we just had a good draw both times and a group of players that are better than the other big nations, relatively speaking, compared to at prior tournaments. Definitely the latter

[eightbelow]

Who says the players are better than the other big nations, we have a good young squad with lots of potential and in time I think they can fulfill that potential. I disagree with you on Grealish, at this point in his career he is better coming off the bench. He is the best player for an average PL team that will never get near Europe, in time I think he will be a very good player but I don't believe that he is ready to take on a game like today and its debatable whether he would start for City, Chelsea United or Liverpool on a regular basis. His time will come for sure.

They have been fortunate with the brackets but you can only beat the teams you play and they are doing that.

[new zealand owl]

9 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

But beating Germany aside, of the other 9 games we’ll have played to get to two semi finals all of the results are totally par for the course. Any competent manager would get those results so does that really mean he’s the best manager we’ve had or have we just had a good draw both times and a group of players that are better than the other big nations, relatively speaking, compared to at prior tournaments. Definitely the latter

So by your logic Italia 90 under Robson was par or even failure as we were expected to beat Belgium and cameroon?

 

Many Previous managers haven't reached 'par' have they? So it was fine to lose to Portugal in 04 and 06 because of their name? Each time they didn't go on to win it. Same with 98, Argentina went out in the next round. Countless examples of previous england managers hiding behind an exit against a big name.

 

You can talk about the draw all you want, I honestly believe spirit and organization carries you a long way in tournament football and Southgate is proving this for the second time.

 

I do have criticisms of Southgate, I don't see what he sees in Rice and I think he overly relies on sterling. But he has achieved good things in this job, I find it baffling why people think he hasn't.

 

Will he achieve great things? Maybe not but the next person in the hot seat is picking up england in a very healthy state. 

 

 

[Guest LondonOwl313]

5 minutes ago, eightbelow said:

Who says the players are better than the other big nations, we have a good young squad with lots of potential and in time I think they can fulfill that potential. I disagree with you on Grealish, at this point in his career he is better coming off the bench. He is the best player for an average PL team that will never get near Europe, in time I think he will be a very good player but I don't believe that he is ready to take on a game like today and its debatable whether he would start for City, Chelsea United or Liverpool on a regular basis. His time will come for sure.

They have been fortunate with the brackets but you can only beat the teams you play and they are doing that.

Well I just think on paper, the best squad is France.. then it’s not much to choose between Portugal, England, Belgium.. Italy doing well with a fresh group too. 
 

Spain are very average.. Netherlands also particularly without VVD. Germany are poor as well.. Werner and Havertz haven’t set the world alight at Chelsea.

 

So we’re a top 4 side, and the draw has been favourable to us as well. Villa were near the top until January then Grealish got injured and they fell away.. he then came back and they got some results again. He’s one of the most creative players in the PL, the stats all show that. And for England he’s shown the same.

[FreshOwl]

We dragged Germany down to our level today, and it worked. We wanted it to be a messy game and it was. 
 

Will this approach continue to work? Guess we’ll wait and see. But it’s clear Southgate isn’t budging from his methodology 

 

I still have doubts, but we continue to win and keep clean sheets

[eightbelow]

Christ, I think Spain are really good! I just think that the margins at the very top are so thin and I can make a case for England in 82, 86, 90 and 2002 for winning the World Cup but we couldn't win games that we maybe should have. It looks like this group can win close games against good opposition and its been a long time since we could say that.

[Raminpeace]

1 hour ago, Ash77 said:

 

Thing is how many top managers succeed in long run by being defensive and bringing best players on for last 20mins etc? 

 

too true. Frank Lampard. Wembley. No further questions m’lud.