When Lees returns

[Guest LondonOwl313]

33 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

With respect, if we don’t score enough goals because we don’t create chances, look no further than our wingers. They don’t score goals, so their sole focus should be providing chance after chance, something they don’t do Yes, we want our full backs to contribute, but playing behind two out and out wingers, their primary job is to defend. Our defensive record suggests they are doing their job, but maybe those further forward aren’t 

Think the problem is that pretty much in all positions players contribute slightly fewer goals and assists than you might expect for a player playing their position. That includes the full backs, centre mids, wingers and strikers. So it’s not like anybody is clearly underperforming, it’s marginal. But as a collective it’s not enough. Also makes it much harder to fix as you can’t replace everybody 

[gurujuan]

5 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

Think the problem is that pretty much in all positions players contribute slightly fewer goals and assists than you might expect for a player playing their position. That includes the full backs, centre mids, wingers and strikers. So it’s not like anybody is clearly underperforming, it’s marginal. But as a collective it’s not enough. Also makes it much harder to fix as you can’t replace everybody 

I think that’s probably true, but the defensive unit is fine, and we have plenty of cover there as well. Midfield? A three of Hutchinson, Luongo and Bannan, is perhaps a little short goals, but should have enough creativity to supply the front men. 

The problem here, as I see it, there isn’t enough quality ahead of them, with nobody making those clever little runs for them to pick out. Up front is the area that can be improved, and hopefully will be in the next window. I don’t think it’s down to a lack of creativity in other areas, that the front three don’t score enough goals, they never have throughout their careers.

[HOOTIE AND THE SHIT TU]

39 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

With respect, if we don’t score enough goals because we don’t create chances, look no further than our wingers. They don’t score goals, so their sole focus should be providing chance after chance, something they don’t do Yes, we want our full backs to contribute, but playing behind two out and out wingers, their primary job is to defend. Our defensive record suggests they are doing their job, but maybe those further forward aren’t 

It's a team game

 

Reach was high up in the list of assists and goals last season, and he will do the same this season

 

Harris isn't a goalscorer but he will always create chances

 

Our wingers aren't the problem

 

Because we haven't got a 20-30 goal striker, all area's must contribute with goals

 

Currently we have two players capable of scoring 10 or more, Fletcher and Reach, it's nowhere near enough

 

What's the point of pushing full backs forward if we don't expect them to create chances, might as well just let them sit back and defend, but then the wingers would be easier to mark without full backs running past them

 

Like I said, it's a team game, a winger and his full back will attack as a pair, and defend as a pair

 

If you want an example of great full backs, look at Liverpool's two, they created something like 27 goals between them last season

 

I'm not saying we will find two like that, but we need to find two better than we've got

 

Not since Daniel Pudil in his prime have we had a full back who creates chances, it's got to change if we want to be successful

[Westfield Owl]

Lees goes straight on the bench.  He needs to sit this out and wait until his turn comes again.

 

Iorfa and Borner have been great in Lees absence; in terms of their own individual performances and also our impressive defensive record (e.g. 1 goal conceded in the the last 4 games).

 

My only concern is that Bannan has been captain in Lees absence.  I think Bannan’s role in this team (plays every game, his passing is the heartbeat of our team’s play) would benefit from not having all the additional captaincy duties to deal with.

[gurujuan]

30 minutes ago, HOOTIE AND THE poo TU said:

It's a team game

 

Reach was high up in the list of assists and goals last season, and he will do the same this season

 

Harris isn't a goalscorer but he will always create chances

 

Our wingers aren't the problem

 

Because we haven't got a 20-30 goal striker, all area's must contribute with goals

 

Currently we have two players capable of scoring 10 or more, Fletcher and Reach, it's nowhere near enough

 

What's the point of pushing full backs forward if we don't expect them to create chances, might as well just let them sit back and defend, but then the wingers would be easier to mark without full backs running past them

 

Like I said, it's a team game, a winger and his full back will attack as a pair, and defend as a pair

 

If you want an example of great full backs, look at Liverpool's two, they created something like 27 goals between them last season

 

I'm not saying we will find two like that, but we need to find two better than we've got

 

Not since Daniel Pudil in his prime have we had a full back who creates chances, it's got to change if we want to be successful

You might also acknowledge Liverpool’s front three, constantly on the move, always interchanging That’s what you require from your forwards in a 4-3-3, not two wingers and a bloke waiting in the middle

[Morepork]

This is pretty much the first time Lees has found his team spot under pressure in his time at the club. I want to make the point that by and large he has managed to maintain a very high standard under his own motivation. Of course, he's a Pro, he should be able to do that but plenty don't.

 

Monk won't split up the Iorfa/Borner partnership and rightly so. For the first time in yonks we have three quality CB's, cover from Hutch and a solid young prospect in Thorniley. Exactly what you need for this league so let's not be rushing to sell any of them.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Morepork

[Jim]

I think what this thread is highlighting in particular is so far Monk is using his squad particularly well at the moment and long may it continue.

[ZicoSterland2]

No brainer Lees is on the bench until required. The defence at present is winning us games. Second best record in the league so far this season would be madness to change it unless injury forces us to. 

[PortlandOwl]

We need them all. Its a long, tough season and there will be injuries and suspensions. We're not exactly surplus to requirements in the CB area either.

[The only way is S6]

Out of Lees, Borner & BBD, there’s only one who isn’t comfortable in possession when pressed, or comfortable bringing the ball out to halfway or further. 
He should be a sub until we concede a few. If we don’t, the defence must be playing well & he has to suck it up & wait I’m afraid.

He’ll probably start at Blackburn now!

[Lawrie’s Left Peg]

9 hours ago, HOOTIE AND THE poo TU said:

It's a team game

 

Reach was high up in the list of assists and goals last season, and he will do the same this season

 

Harris isn't a goalscorer but he will always create chances

 

Our wingers aren't the problem

 

Because we haven't got a 20-30 goal striker, all area's must contribute with goals

 

Currently we have two players capable of scoring 10 or more, Fletcher and Reach, it's nowhere near enough

 

What's the point of pushing full backs forward if we don't expect them to create chances, might as well just let them sit back and defend, but then the wingers would be easier to mark without full backs running past them

 

Like I said, it's a team game, a winger and his full back will attack as a pair, and defend as a pair

 

If you want an example of great full backs, look at Liverpool's two, they created something like 27 goals between them last season

 

I'm not saying we will find two like that, but we need to find two better than we've got

 

Not since Daniel Pudil in his prime have we had a full back who creates chances, it's got to change if we want to be successful

Reach has never scored 10 League goals in a season throughout his career. His best return is 8  It’s not beyond the realms of possibility he could exceed 10 but history and experience say he will never be prolific. 
 

FF & Big Dave Have scored more than 10 in a season for us. Winnall and Rhodes have scored  20 plus goals in a season elsewhere. None of them have been given regular game time. 

[Lawrie’s Left Peg]

6 hours ago, Morepork said:

This is pretty much the first time Lees has found his team spot under pressure in his time at the club. I want to make the point that by and large he has managed to maintain a very high standard under his own motivation. Of course, he's a Pro, he should be able to do that but plenty don't.

 

Monk won't split up the Iorfa/Borner partnership and rightly so. For the first time in yonks we have three quality CB's, cover from Hutch and a solid young prospect in Thorniley. Exactly what you need for this league so let's not be rushing to sell any of them.

 

 

Thorniley is 24 so can no longer be viewed as a young prospect. He’s solid enough and there’s nothing not to like but he’s probably 5th choice CB. Therefore he’s almost certainly not the future of Wednesday but it does show our current strength in depth.

[HOOTIE AND THE SHIT TU]

11 hours ago, gurujuan said:

You might also acknowledge Liverpool’s front three, constantly on the move, always interchanging That’s what you require from your forwards in a 4-3-3, not two wingers and a bloke waiting in the middle

I understand what you're saying

 

But take those two full backs out of Liverpool's team and you've lost 27 assists

 

It's great having brilliant strikers, and while some will create a fair share of chances between them, it's al about the service you can get to them. and the modern day full back must be able to create chances, ours don't, and they would be the first two positions I'd look to strengthen

 

We also need a midfield beast, and a striker who plays on the shoulder of centre half's

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

4 minutes ago, HOOTIE AND THE poo TU said:

I understand what you're saying

 

But take those two full backs out of Liverpool's team and you've lost 27 assists

 

It's great having brilliant strikers, and while some will create a fair share of chances between them, it's al about the service you can get to them. and the modern day full back must be able to create chances, ours don't, and they would be the first two positions I'd look to strengthen

 

We also need a midfield beast, and a striker who plays on the shoulder of centre half's

 

100% agree.

 

When you consider that Palmer averages an assist every 2054 minutes of Championship football and has never scored a goal at this level, it's not hard to see where we might be able to improve.

 

If we can find a fullback who's defensively sound and able to provide more than an assist every half season, then we'll have improved our lot.

[gurujuan]

13 minutes ago, HOOTIE AND THE poo TU said:

I understand what you're saying

 

But take those two full backs out of Liverpool's team and you've lost 27 assists

 

It's great having brilliant strikers, and while some will create a fair share of chances between them, it's al about the service you can get to them. and the modern day full back must be able to create chances, ours don't, and they would be the first two positions I'd look to strengthen

 

We also need a midfield beast, and a striker who plays on the shoulder of centre half's

Personally, and it’s just my opinion, with us playing two out and out wingers, attacking full backs are less of a priority It’s nice if you have them, but their first priority is to defend. If our wide players played as inside forwards, pretty much how Liverpool’s do, then the need for width to be provided by the full backs becomes vital.

Edited October 29, 2019 by gurujuan

[Luke]

Lees on bench and keep the armband off him

He's a terrible captain but a steady enough cb 

 

Borner and iorfa are doing amazingly well and deserve to start 

 

Why change things while they are going well ? 

 

Shoehorning players in has happened time and time again at this club and its got us no where 

 

[HOOTIE AND THE SHIT TU]

7 hours ago, gurujuan said:

Personally, and it’s just my opinion, with us playing two out and out wingers, attacking full backs are less of a priority It’s nice if you have them, but their first priority is to defend. If our wide players played as inside forwards, pretty much how Liverpool’s do, then the need for width to be provided by the full backs becomes vital.

Watch the next few games and see how many times Palmer gets into a great forward position and delivers a poor cross/pass

 

Then ask yourself if we need better

 

But like you say, their first priority is to defend, if we can find one who defends and attacks with equal aplomb then that's great

 

If we can't, do we sacrifice a bit of solidity and take a few more risks, I would, but the fact Monk chooses Palmer over Odubajo tells me Monk won't

 

The question then goes back to, how do we create more chances.

[OWL1969]

On 28/10/2019 at 23:05, Dylan93 said:

WEDNESDAY FANS ARE POSSIBLY THE MOST FICKLE FANS ON THE PLANET

Lees has been very consistent for us ever since he signed. He’s saved our neck time and time again. Yeah, he’s made mistakes, and last season we conceded a high amount of goals, but he’s professional and always given his all.
 

Iorfa goes right back for me. He gives more going forward and defends better than Palmer. Or, play all 3 in 5-3-2 system.

Depends how you look at it, I like most Wednesdayites like Lees.

But at the moment Iorfa and Borner (or Hutch Saturday) are performing extremely well at CB and deserve their places there.

 

Could wanting to bring Lees straight back in and moving Iorfa away from a position he's excelled in, also be classed as being fickle?

 

I don't think either is fickle, just fans wanting the best for their team and having different opinions on what that is.

 

I do agree generally all football fans (not just Wednesday fans) can be very fickle, but don't think what your saying is a good example, no one (as far as I can see) are having a go at Lees, they're just saying at the moment it's difficult to vindicate a starting place for him based on other players great form. (Long may it continue!)