Full-Backs and The Balance of the Midfield.

[Jim]

Two big issues at the moment.

 

I often felt under Carlos' management the full-backs were playing as wing-backs in a flat back four. Arguably under Jos the wing-backs are playing like full-backs in a back five. Ultimately neither of the options in this department are decent defensively or decent going forward and this is a big problem for the next manager here?

 

For a large part of Carlos' reign Bannan, Lee and Hutchinson were shoehorned into a midfield four with only Wallace giving us genuine width. As I said earlier the width was expected to be provided by the full-backs. It worked for a time hence the play-off campaigns but we got there by to a certain extent despite this imbalance rather than because of it.

 

Jos plays a three, a holding player (Pelupessy)  and two central (Bannan/Onomah, Reach). Once again we play with no obvious width and service is at a premium for the forwards. The task for the next manager is to get one, preferably two players hogging the touchline. In the short term, Reach could play wider as could both Matias and Forrestieri (when fit). Long term orthodox wingers need to be sought.

 

This may seem a simple solution, it may not but perhaps we need an old fashioned British manager schooled in these ways. I think the situation is screaming out for a Megson type manager TBH or even the man himself?

Edited December 16, 2018 by Great Big Galaa

[saf]

All very valid points. And i agree with the bottom line which is out left and right back options are major weaknesses that hamper us both in a defensive and attacking sense.

 

However. i don't think we can afford to bring in anybody. 

 

Secondly with regard to managers. Names being mentioned are traditional experienced British managers who have done it before etc. I agree I think  we need a change but don't we need a manager who can get the best out of this lot given we can't buy anyone? modern footballers need an arm round their shoulder and 'coaching' rather than a rocket. The best can do both but we aren't getting Pep or Moore or man from L****s

[Markowski77]

Also baker is a Sunday league player at best

[shandypants]

45 minutes ago, Great Big Galaa said:

Two big issues at the moment.

 

I often felt under Carlos' management the full-backs were playing as wing-backs in a flat back four. Arguably under Jos the wing-backs are playing like full-backs in a back five. Ultimately neither of the options in this department are decent defensively or decent going forward and this is a big problem for the next manager here?

 

For a large part of Carlos' reign Bannan, Lee and Hutchinson were shoehorned into a midfield four with only Wallace giving us genuine width. As I said earlier the width was expected to be provided by the full-backs. It worked for a time hence the play-off campaigns but we got there by to a certain extent despite this imbalance rather than because of it.

 

Jos plays a three, a holding player (Pelupessy)  and two central (Bannan/Onomah, Reach). Once again we play with no obvious width and service is at a premium for the forwards. The task for the next manager is to get one, preferably two players hogging the touchline. In the short term, Reach could play wider as could both Matias and Forrestieri (when fit). Long term orthodox wingers need to be sought.

 

This may seem a simple solution, it may not but perhaps we need an old fashioned British manager schooled in these ways. I think the situation is screaming out for a Megson type manager TBH or even the man himself?

Why didn’t you just get to the point and say “bring back Megson” rather than going round the houses? 

[Simaniac Owl]

More calls for HIS return. 

 

#unfinishedbusiness

 

#readywillingandable

 

[Jim]

48 minutes ago, shandypants said:

Why didn’t you just get to the point and say “bring back Megson” rather than going round the houses? 

 

I just added the bit about Megson on at the end but you would’ve noticed that as you obviously read the whole post 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Great Big Galaa

[Walt]

1 hour ago, Great Big Galaa said:

Two big issues at the moment.

 

I often felt under Carlos' management the full-backs were playing as wing-backs in a flat back four. Arguably under Jos the wing-backs are playing like full-backs in a back five. Ultimately neither of the options in this department are decent defensively or decent going forward and this is a big problem for the next manager here?

 

For a large part of Carlos' reign Bannan, Lee and Hutchinson were shoehorned into a midfield four with only Wallace giving us genuine width. As I said earlier the width was expected to be provided by the full-backs. It worked for a time hence the play-off campaigns but we got there by to a certain extent despite this imbalance rather than because of it.

 

Jos plays a three, a holding player (Pelupessy)  and two central (Bannan/Onomah, Reach). Once again we play with no obvious width and service is at a premium for the forwards. The task for the next manager is to get one, preferably two players hogging the touchline. In the short term, Reach could play wider as could both Matias and Forrestieri (when fit). Long term orthodox wingers need to be sought.

 

This may seem a simple solution, it may not but perhaps we need an old fashioned British manager schooled in these ways. I think the situation is screaming out for a Megson type manager TBH or even the man himself?

Couldn’t agree more regarding the fullbacks and I’ve said as much on here.

Under CC Hutch often dropped deep giving us a back three and like you say we had a narrow midfield. Pudil and Hunt often played high and wide up the pitch like genuine wingbacks, and with Hooper, Lee,  FF and Bannan darting about between the lines we must have been a nightmare to play against. I could never work out if this approach was down to design or just sort of happened due to the players. You could quite clearly initially see us set up as a 442 but then as the game progressed it evolved to a genuine back 3 and the midfield playing narrow. Teams eventually (imo) cottoned on to our fullbacks being key to how we played and tuned it into a weakness, sadly for us CC did not adapt to counter this.

 

i always thought that our fullbacks were going to let us down big time  this season as they aren’t good enough to play as fullbacks in a back 4 or wingbacks in a back 5. I did not expect it to be such a flipping mess though. The manager should have realised soon enough that they are all poo (apart from maybe Penney), that it doesn’t really matter who plays FB / WB as the outcome will still be the same and played and stuck with a system to at least get some sort of  understanding and continuity.

 

With one or two noteable exceptions Jos by and large stuck with a back 5 last season and it worked for him, this season it’s all over the shop...what has made him go from mainly sound thinking  to breaking the golden rule ‘don’t fizz with your defence?’ He’s not only changing personnel, he’s changing the system and the whole shape of the team. I do not think this would have happened if he still had Venancio and Hunt but that is a pretty lame excuse for not being able to adapt, after all he replaced Venancio with Hector.  

 

Whatever happens with the manager I think it’s pretty obvious to most fans that our next two signings need to be in both Fullback / Wingback positions. 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Walt
Edit

[roundhayowl]

It is never going to work playing with “wing backs” the quality of Fox/Baker/Palmer. EVER. You have to put wingers ahead of these players in more of a 4-4-2 IMO. It’s not fair on them to ask them to deliver further forward when they are simply devoid of the quality. 

[pazowl55]

Carlos shoehorned in all the best players. 

 

Jos leaves them all at home.

 

[Animis]

1 hour ago, Great Big Galaa said:

Two big issues at the moment.

 

I often felt under Carlos' management the full-backs were playing as wing-backs in a flat back four. Arguably under Jos the wing-backs are playing like full-backs in a back five. Ultimately neither of the options in this department are decent defensively or decent going forward and this is a big problem for the next manager here?

 

For a large part of Carlos' reign Bannan, Lee and Hutchinson were shoehorned into a midfield four with only Wallace giving us genuine width. As I said earlier the width was expected to be provided by the full-backs. It worked for a time hence the play-off campaigns but we got there by to a certain extent despite this imbalance rather than because of it.

 

Jos plays a three, a holding player (Pelupessy)  and two central (Bannan/Onomah, Reach). Once again we play with no obvious width and service is at a premium for the forwards. The task for the next manager is to get one, preferably two players hogging the touchline. In the short term, Reach could play wider as could both Matias and Forrestieri (when fit). Long term orthodox wingers need to be sought.

 

This may seem a simple solution, it may not but perhaps we need an old fashioned British manager schooled in these ways. I think the situation is screaming out for a Megson type manager TBH or even the man himself?

 

I agree with some of this. Width and pace is not part of the current team's DNA. Bizarrely we play two big front men with no width so they're isolated and lack the pace to worry the opposition's defence. Mobility is also something that we lack - if we had a box-to-box midfielder, similar to Lee, but central and stronger, we could paper of the cracks and compete as you suggested we did under CC.

 

Balance is definitely something we've not had since CC came in - when we bought Reach, it meant essentially displacing FF from his best position of wide attacking left. We didn't need Reach; we needed a strong box-to-box central midfield player to replace and upgrade on Hutch as above. We brought in Abdi and Jones - both players were not needed, as Bannan was essentially the holding playmaker. 

 

Quality is also an area we've neglected. Fox, Pelupessy, JVA & Boyd we're poor acquisitions that has not moved us on from the Huddersfield semis. 

 

We are left with filling the gaps with the U23s who quite frankly look league 1 level at present and are part of a struggling team, which must be affecting their confidence. 

 

The new manager will have to assess the full squad and get a better balanced team to prize out results to the end of the season. The current course: 0.5 points/game from the last 10 is relegation without a doubt.

[modboy]

Full backs and midfield issue not solved since Wembley 

[Holmowl]

2 hours ago, Great Big Galaa said:

Two big issues at the moment.

 

I often felt under Carlos' management the full-backs were playing as wing-backs in a flat back four. Arguably under Jos the wing-backs are playing like full-backs in a back five. Ultimately neither of the options in this department are decent defensively or decent going forward and this is a big problem for the next manager here?

 

For a large part of Carlos' reign Bannan, Lee and Hutchinson were shoehorned into a midfield four with only Wallace giving us genuine width. As I said earlier the width was expected to be provided by the full-backs. It worked for a time hence the play-off campaigns but we got there by to a certain extent despite this imbalance rather than because of it.

 

Jos plays a three, a holding player (Pelupessy)  and two central (Bannan/Onomah, Reach). Once again we play with no obvious width and service is at a premium for the forwards. The task for the next manager is to get one, preferably two players hogging the touchline. In the short term, Reach could play wider as could both Matias and Forrestieri (when fit). Long term orthodox wingers need to be sought.

 

This may seem a simple solution, it may not but perhaps we need an old fashioned British manager schooled in these ways. I think the situation is screaming out for a Megson type manager TBH or even the man himself?

 

Couldn’t agree more.

 

Our lack of width is a huge part of our problem. Our opponents attack us down the flanks every game, but we rarely do the same. It makes us predictable and easy to contain.

 

We have a superb winger in Reach. When he leaves us he will never play CM ever again. His future managers will have him back wide. We have Forestieri and Matias for the other wing.

 

You make a good point about our two play-off seasons, and I agree our success was in spite of Carlos playing many games with a lop-sided midfield, with only one wide player. If you look at the points we won over those two seasons we were FAR more successful (and a delight to watch) when we played two wingers. 

[WalthamOwl]

Full backs and midfield has been an issue for years. Why they haven’t been properly addressed over the years I will never understand. 

[modboy]

3 minutes ago, modboy said:

Full backs and midfield issue not solved since Wembley 

 

And a player such as huddleston has transfered a couple of times in those years. 

 

Amazing we don't have a championship quality, perhaps even L1 quality fullback in the whole squad. 

[modboy]

If I'm being over critical still don't think we ever replaced big Carlton. 

[HighworthOwl]

Thought Baker was decent yesterday. Although I was convinced he would get a second booking (his booking in the first half was a joke).

 

All our issues came down our left. Fox was giving good options going forward but left us exposed when defending.

[Animis]

3 minutes ago, modboy said:

Full backs and midfield issue not solved since Wembley 

 

I would suggest that all our current backs' next move would be to league 1 at best.  

[Bigaltheowl]

27 minutes ago, Walt said:

Couldn’t agree more regarding the fullbacks and I’ve said as much on here.

Under CC Hutch often dropped deep giving us a back three and like you say we had a narrow midfield. Pudil and Hunt often played high and wide up the pitch like genuine wingbacks, and with Hooper, Lee,  FF and Bannan darting about between the lines we must have been a nightmare to play against. I could never work out if this approach was down to design or just sort of happened due to the players. You could quite clearly initially see us set up as a 442 but then as the game progressed it evolved to a genuine back 3 and the midfield playing narrow. Teams eventually (imo) cottoned on to our fullbacks being key to how we played and tuned it into a weakness, sadly for us CC did not adapt to counter this.

 

i always thought that our fullbacks were going to let us down big time  this season as they aren’t good enough to play as fullbacks in a back 4 or wingbacks in a back 5. I did not expect it to be such a flipping mess though. The manager should have realised soon enough that they are all poo (apart from maybe Penney), that it doesn’t really matter who plays FB / WB as the outcome will still be the same and played and stuck with a system to at least get some sort of  understanding and continuity.

 

With one or two noteable exceptions Jos by and large stuck with a back 5 last season and it worked for him, this season it’s all over the shop...what has made him go from mainly sound thinking  to breaking the golden rule ‘don’t fizz with your defence?’ He’s not only changing personnel, he’s changing the system and the whole shape of the team. I do not think this would have happened if he still had Venancio and Hunt but that is a pretty lame excuse for not being able to adapt, after all he replaced Venancio with Hector.  

 

Whatever happens with the manager I think it’s pretty obvious to most fans that our next two signings need to be in both Fullback / Wingback positions. 

 

 

I agree with this just one question was Matt Penney injured yesterday or just another crazy example of his team selection like dropping hector.surely you build a solid back four as a starting point

[gurujuan]

1 hour ago, Great Big Galaa said:

Two big issues at the moment.

 

I often felt under Carlos' management the full-backs were playing as wing-backs in a flat back four. Arguably under Jos the wing-backs are playing like full-backs in a back five. Ultimately neither of the options in this department are decent defensively or decent going forward and this is a big problem for the next manager here?

 

For a large part of Carlos' reign Bannan, Lee and Hutchinson were shoehorned into a midfield four with only Wallace giving us genuine width. As I said earlier the width was expected to be provided by the full-backs. It worked for a time hence the play-off campaigns but we got there by to a certain extent despite this imbalance rather than because of it.

 

Jos plays a three, a holding player (Pelupessy)  and two central (Bannan/Onomah, Reach). Once again we play with no obvious width and service is at a premium for the forwards. The task for the next manager is to get one, preferably two players hogging the touchline. In the short term, Reach could play wider as could both Matias and Forrestieri (when fit). Long term orthodox wingers need to be sought.

 

This may seem a simple solution, it may not but perhaps we need an old fashioned British manager schooled in these ways. I think the situation is screaming out for a Megson type manager TBH or even the man himself?

I’d like to debate this. While I think your observations are spot on, I don’t agree with the remedy. 

Firstly, the full backs are an issue, but they aren’t the only one. In fact, they’re not even the main one. While I agree, it is an area where we could upgrade, we have a decent pairing in Palmer and Penney. Unfortunately, they are not the ones selected by this hapless coach, who prefers to go with Baker and Fox.  Ditch the three at the back, what’s the point when we don’t have wing backs. The key for me, would be to play with a proper holding midfielder sat in front of a back four. An obvious candidate for that role is Hutchinson. If not him, then Hector, both have done the job in successful championship sides. Immediately, that gives the full backs licence to get forward more. In Palmer’s case, that won’t be much beyond the final third, as I don’t think he is confident in being able to recover his position That may improve in a new system. Penney on the other hand, has no such limitations, and has the speed and the ability to get up and down the pitch. Underrated by many at the club, I think he has the ability to be an outstanding left back. As for the midfield, with a proper anchor in there, we can release Bannan further up the field. Because we are then coming from a solid base, we can use various permutations alongside Bannan, whether that be Onomah or Pelupessy to the right, or Reach to the left. It’s not rocket science, as they say, it just needs someone with the tactical nous to work it out, which sadly rules out Megson I’m afraid

[Animis]

2 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

I’d like to debate this. While I think your observations are spot on, I don’t agree with the remedy. 

Firstly, the full backs are an issue, but they aren’t the only one. In fact, they’re not even the main one. While I agree, it is an area where we could upgrade, we have a decent pairing in Palmer and Penney. Unfortunately, they are not the ones selected by this hapless coach, who prefers to go with Baker and Fox.  Ditch the three at the back, what’s the point when we don’t have wing backs. The key for me, would be to play with a proper holding midfielder sat in front of a back four. An obvious candidate for that role is Hutchinson. If not him, then Hector, both have done the job in successful championship sides. Immediately, that gives the full backs licence to get forward more. In Palmer’s case, that won’t be much beyond the final third, as I don’t think he is confident in being able to recover his position That may improve in a new system. Penney on the other hand, has no such limitations, and has the speed and the ability to get up and down the pitch. Underrated by many at the club, I think he has the ability to be an outstanding left back. As for the midfield, with a proper anchor in there, we can release Bannan further up the field. Because we are then coming from a solid base, we can use various permutations alongside Bannan, whether that be Onomah or Pelupessy to the right, or Reach to the left. It’s not rocket science, as they say, it just needs someone with the tactical nous to work it out, which sadly rules out Megson I’m afraid

 

Penny's a liability at present - might need a new manager to get him grounded. He's clearly a talent but needs a good coach.