The real reason crowds are down (and its not prices)

[the monk]

In my opinion a big chance was lost in the 1st full season of DC

 

We hadn't had investment for years and years , we hadn't signed a proven top end championship player in all that time.

 

We had one top half finish in all that time and numerous scrapes with relegation 

 

DC comes along, the wealthy guy we had all been craving but thought would never happen, I and loads of others were buzzing .

 

Then before the season starts the p o g prices are announced and I for one was totally deflated and did not attend the opening match v Bristol and missed the majority of a very good season 

 

Bearing in mind I like many on here had seen the Ashley Westwoods ,Beswethericks,Barry-Murphys(kicking the corner flag instead of the ball!!) Not to mention the 70s fiasco 

 

I just wonder how many others thought the same way as me 

 

And one last thing ,in all my 50 odd years watching Wednesday I don't remember ever getting a roll going from the off and taking the league by the scruff of the neck ,something to get your teeth into ,it's nearly always playing catch up 

 

Just my opinion 

 

[OWL1969]

54 minutes ago, Peacenocchio said:

Eh?

1516 play off final

1617 play off semis 

So a downgrade in performance obviously.

Fact.

Your just giving your own opinions. Back them up with something.

In 15/16 we finished 6th

In 16/17 we finished 4th

Ie higher league position and more points

So an upgrade in performance 

Fact.

How far we then got in the playoffs before losing is an irrelevance over the season we were better in 16/17 no matter how you try to spin it.

(Although the performances in 15/16 were more enjoyable to watch.)

 

I already have backed it up with simple economics.

More people who can afford it, the more likely higher attendances 

Reading of people who can't afford it just confirms it.

These are facts you just don't want to believe them.

 

The perfect storm for attendances would be a promotion season with reasonable pricing, this would see higher attendances than we have witnessed in the last 25 years.

Unfortunately not likely to happen.

 

I agree success will see higher attendances, but dismissing prices as a reason is incredibly naive and ignorant of other people's circumstances.

 

[jonnyowl]

Said it before and i'll say it again.

 

If we are top of the league people don't moan as much.

 

If we are top of the league after Christmas and look like staying there, there would be 30,000 plus every home match even with ticket prices as they are!

[bradowl]

Prices is just one of a number of reasons for average attendances going down, form is an obvious one but also the way fixtures come out has a barring on it.

Being at home first game of season is a bonus along with Boxing day. 

 

Large number of midweek home games sends attendances down, you can also include Friday night games with these.

 

Being in Premier league means practically no midweek games unless picked for Monday night live game.

[Greengrass]

I expect ST on the Kop to increase dramatically due to the 'baggy shorts' incident.

[Buxtongent]

As a matter of FACT, what has been the average attendances since we let League 1?

[OWL1969]

35 minutes ago, jonnyowl said:

Said it before and i'll say it again.

 

If we are top of the league people don't moan as much.

 

If we are top of the league after Christmas and look like staying there, there would be 30,000 plus every home match even with ticket prices as they are!

Sadly no there wouldn't, a few may be over 30k but no way everyone would be, especially with the pricing policy.

[Buxtongent]

How many matches outside the Sheffield Derby have we had 30,000 spectators, with he exception of special games, but yet we take far more than 40,000 'fanatical supporters' to Wembley/  

[Lord Snooty]

Combinations isn't it.

 

 

• High prices and not doing like doing anything = Low
• Low prices and winning a lot = High 

 

Sometimes you see teams go down and the following season attendances rise.  

I'd suggest because people think they might see their teams win the odd game for a change or false promises of instant returns. 

 

You can say the same about playing teams you haven't played for a while.

It's why I remain convinced, despite contrary claims that you could stick an extra 2000 on every home gate if we made the Premier league. Often more.

[HirstWhoScoredIt]

It’s obvious that not one single factor effects crowd figures.

 

Wednesday’s league position

 

Style of play

 

Prices

 

Opposition

 

TV appearances all play a part.

 

However, suggesting price plays no part is just plain wrong.  If season ticket prices were £2,500 and it was £150 POTG per match, I don’t think we would average more than 2,000 regardless of league position.

 

Similarly, if it was £23 for a season ticket - I have no doubt whatsoever that we would sell 35,000 season tickets.

 

Now they are obviously extreme examples but there will be a demand and price curve that will move between the above two examples with league position effecting the elasticity of demand along the price axis.

 

The trick is to try and get the season ticket and POTG at a point that maximises revenue whilst protecting the future support (and therefore future revenues).  The pity is that for the last few seasons it doesn’t appear that Wednesday have managed this - mainly due (in my opinion)to the differential between season ticket and POTG prices being too great.

Edited September 25, 2018 by HirstWhoScoredIt

[Nero]

2 hours ago, Rev Owl said:

I like the argument in the original post.  It makes sense to me. It may be argued that you are proving correlation rather than causality but a long term correlation does suggest it might be a causal relationship. 

The two problems you will face however are that in general, evidence and facts are usually placed second to opinion and secondly that personal anecdotal evidence usually outweighs big picture data. 

So good luck with all that. 

Absolutely true. And there really is no one judging who is right or wrong. Still, I think its worth still trying to put the facts in there somewhere.

Some people are disagreeing with the facts. Fine!

[Beighton Owl 87]

3 hours ago, S36 OWL said:

I think crowds are down because of the Phantom Kop Trumper. 

That's why I sit on the grandstand now

[Nero]

2 hours ago, OWL1969 said:

In 15/16 we finished 6th

In 16/17 we finished 4th

Ie higher league position and more points

So an upgrade in performance 

Fact.

How far we then got in the playoffs before losing is an irrelevance over the season we were better in 16/17 no matter how you try to spin it.

(Although the performances in 15/16 were more enjoyable to watch.)

 

I already have backed it up with simple economics.

More people who can afford it, the more likely higher attendances 

Reading of people who can't afford it just confirms it.

These are facts you just don't want to believe them.

 

The perfect storm for attendances would be a promotion season with reasonable pricing, this would see higher attendances than we have witnessed in the last 25 years.

Unfortunately not likely to happen.

 

I agree success will see higher attendances, but dismissing prices as a reason is incredibly naive and ignorant of other people's circumstances.

 

The play offs are part of the season d. And really, at the end of that season was everyone saying how happier they were. And as prices rose so did attendances. Which bit of simple economics did you use to prove the opposite.

You are taking an arguable single point and ignoring the overall conclusion that our attendances mostly go up and down based on the previous years performance. 

Can you show how price contributed to the rises and falls in attendance under Mandaric and Chansiri based on the actual attendances and prices charged?

Please explain.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Peacenocchio

[Guest mkowl]

It's no different to when folk say house prices are high it's because of one factor. It's always a combination of factors. Good summary above of those impacting season tickets

 

The issue is that the demand curve is not a fixed line. If you are doing well in the league then it is in economics terminology "inelastic"

 

However on the down side, league performance gets worse price proportionally becomes a larger effect. It works by exponentially increasing the rate of the drop in numbers

 

So in simple language the crowd will be going down anyway but the price impact then reduces it further

[myHero]

2 hours ago, Mr. Tom said:

One thing that’s always completely baffled me about this is the idea that people genuinely prefer to support teams when they’re doing well. Bear with me - I know, on paper that sounds like a no-brainer but when you think about it, it doesn’t make any sense.

 

I hate Wednesday losing and I feel crap about it - but I kinda like feeling crap about it, because it’s part of supporting a football team, and THAT’S what I enjoy doing...not “watching the winner”. The very idea of staying away because we’re doing less well makes absolutely zero sense to me.

 

Because I’ve never really felt in a position to choose WHO I supported - it was always Wednesday or nobody for me - I’ve never understood why it’d be any more satisfying/rewarding to support Real Madrid. Wednesday’s fortunes (or lack thereof) are all I’m really interested in; a mid-table clash with some random cloggers on a soggy Tuesday night in February is infinitely more compelling for me than a Champion’s League semifinal because my team’s involved. If my team happened to be the one in the glamour fixture, then same - but the glamour itself has nowt to do with it.

 

Supporting Wednesday to me isn’t *better* when they’re doing well; it’s one side of the coin, and without the flipside of that coin, the drudgery and heartbreak, it’d all be utterly meaningless. I actively enjoy feeling rubbish because we got beat 3-1 off Milwall midweek - hate the result, but enjoy hating it. Does that make any sense?

 

Probably not. But I’m happy supporting Wednesday even when suppprting Wednesday makes me temporarily unhappy. Almost *because* it can do that.

 

Not bothering to watch the week after, or until we start winning again, seems to completely miss the beauty of it all for me, to the point where it sounds genuinely crackers ever going at all.

 

Am I doing football wrong?!

 

I think you are doing football correctly.

 

I've only had a season ticket once, and it was twenty five years ago.

 

There have been occasions when I've picked matches almost like placing a bet on the match, i.e. I've missed games I've expected we will loose, these days that outlook is a more costly bet for most people.

 

Last year I started coming back for more pain, after the Derby defeat, which I didn't expect at that time, because I wanted to see how the hell things had got so bad, after so much money was spent.

 

When we were in League One I went to matches because of the novelty of seeing us play Wrexham, and Chesterfield. And obviously seeing the likes of John Sheridan playing for Oldham. Those seasons were like a badge of honour to be there, and it also was interesting to see the quality of football at that level, and what passed for third division tactics under Chris Turner. (Never quite worked for him trying to win a match in twenty minutes)

 

I think the times I've stayed away, or lost interest for want of  a better description, were perhaps average midtable seasons where relegation was not likely and the play offs were unlikely.

 

If I've picked matches I expected us  winning in the past, which perhaps agrees with the evidence of the thread, it's only because I hate watching Wednesday loose, and if I've gone to matches I knew they were going to lose, it's because I want to understand why.

 

On average these fickle considerations have taken me to the heights and depths of the Football League.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Ozymandias Owl

[myHero]

2 hours ago, the monk said:

In my opinion a big chance was lost in the 1st full season of DC

 

We hadn't had investment for years and years , we hadn't signed a proven top end championship player in all that time.

 

We had one top half finish in all that time and numerous scrapes with relegation 

 

DC comes along, the wealthy guy we had all been craving but thought would never happen, I and loads of others were buzzing .

 

Then before the season starts the p o g prices are announced and I for one was totally deflated and did not attend the opening match v Bristol and missed the majority of a very good season 

 

Bearing in mind I like many on here had seen the Ashley Westwoods ,Beswethericks,Barry-Murphys(kicking the corner flag instead of the ball!!) Not to mention the 70s fiasco 

 

I just wonder how many others thought the same way as me 

 

And one last thing ,in all my 50 odd years watching Wednesday I don't remember ever getting a roll going from the off and taking the league by the scruff of the neck ,something to get your teeth into ,it's nearly always playing catch up 

 

Just my opinion 

 

I'm still paying the POYG prices now.

 

You can't resent it. You can have half price dead end football for another twenty years, or you pay what's aproaching Premier League prices and and we have a chance of competing.

 

It's the sad reality of modern football.

[Mr. Tom]

52 minutes ago, Ozymandias Owl said:

I think you are doing football correctly.

 

I've only had a season ticket once, and it was twenty five years ago.

 

There have been occasions when I've picked matches almost like placing a bet on the match, i.e. I've missed games I've expected we will loose, these days that outlook is a more costly bet for most people.

 

Last year I started coming back for more pain, after the Derby defeat, which I didn't expect at that time, because I wanted to see how the hell things had got so bad, after so much money was spent.

 

When we were in League One I went to matches because of the novelty of seeing us play Wrexham, and Chesterfield. And obviously seeing the likes of John Sheridan playing for Oldham. Those seasons were like a badge of honour to be there, and it also was interesting to see the quality of football at that level, and what passed for third division tactics under Chris Turner. (Never quite worked for him trying to win a match in twenty minutes)

 

I think the times I've stayed away, or lost interest for want of  a better description, were perhaps average midtable seasons where relegation was not likely and the play offs were unlikely.

 

If I've picked matches I expected us  winning in the past, which perhaps agrees with the evidence of the thread, it's only because I hate watching Wednesday loose, and if I've gone to matches I knew they were going to lose, it's because I want to understand why.

 

On average these fickle considerations have taken me to the heights and depths of the Football League.

 

My first ever season ticket this year. Always been as regular as I could possibly manage, which generally meant membership & 15-20 games a season, but this is first year I could swing for the full ST. Knew before I got it the chances of it being a vintage year were very slim. Didn’t put me off one bit - in fact it made me more keen if anything.

 

Honestly seeing the young ‘uns coming through is among the most rewarding experiences as a Wednesdayite I’ve had in 30 years. Loving it.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Mr. Tom

[myHero]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Tom said:

 

My first ever season ticket this year. Always been as regular as I could possibly manage, which generally meant membership & 15-20 games a season, but this is first year I could swing for the full ST. Knew before I got it the chances of it being a vintage year were very slim. Didn’t put me off one bit - in fact it made me more keen if anything.

 

Honestly seeing the young ‘uns coming through is among the most rewarding experiences as a Wednesdayite I’ve had in 30 years. Loving it.

 

 

I think it will be a vintage year, still can't afford the time or the money to attend every home game. I'll be attending all the matches when I can though.

 

You've made a wise investment.

[Mr. Tom]

7 minutes ago, Ozymandias Owl said:

I think it will be a vintage year, still can't afford the time or the money to attend every home game. I'll be attending all the matches when I can though.

 

You've made a wise investment.

 

Enjoy mate, see you there as and when you can.

[Highbury Owl]

maybe its because football used to be on at 3 pm on Saturday and it was less complicated to make plans to be there?