What price would you pay?

[Tamworthowl]

I think Stuart Gray's season in charge is a pointer on this. A relatively successful season, but wow, wasn't it dour; a chore to turn up at times?

 

So what if SG had slightly better results, 46 1-0 wins? Driving home thinking "three more points, promotion here we come, but ffs that was painful"? I think I could put up with that for a season if the wins were GUARANTEED. And for a second season after promotion too.

 

But a ground out 1-0 can quickly become 0-0 or 0-1. Boring and losing!

And even continued success leads to demands for more: win the EPL with boring games would soon be insufficient. We have now have to win with style. Look at the excessive expectations of fans at Stoke, Swansea, and previously, Sunderland, Villa etc. 

 

So back to the original question: I'd reluctantly pay with dour football if it was successful, but only over a season or two and as a step to better (and still successful) football.

[dorian gray]

3 minutes ago, Tamworthowl said:

I think Stuart Gray's season in charge is a pointer on this. A relatively successful season, but wow, wasn't it dour; a chore to turn up at times?

 

So what if SG had slightly better results, 46 1-0 wins? Driving home thinking "three more points, promotion here we come, but ffs that was painful"? I think I could put up with that for a season if the wins were GUARANTEED. And for a second season after promotion too.

 

But a ground out 1-0 can quickly become 0-0 or 0-1. Boring and losing!

And even continued success leads to demands for more: win the EPL with boring games would soon be insufficient. We have now have to win with style. Look at the excessive expectations of fans at Stoke, Swansea, and previously, Sunderland, Villa etc. 

 

So back to the original question: I'd reluctantly pay with dour football if it was successful, but only over a season or two and as a step to better (and still successful) football.

you've changed 1-0 victory to 0-1 defeats, OF COURSE THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE, IT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

[Hougoumont]

I stood watching us get mullered at Walsall and vowed I would not renew my season ticket even if Megson got us promoted that season. He didn't, Jones did and I renewed. If football becomes a dirge then what's the point in it? During my years of watching Wednesday only the Buckingham side, Atkinson side and the first season under Carlos has given me that buzz that I need and several others...most notably Megson, Eustace and Sturrock have left me totally flattened by their turgid football. 

[dorian gray]

take the man.u. scenario, citeh have canyon's full of cash, united in comparison are now the 'poor relation' it would be a total flash in the pan (and a serious slip up from citeh) for united to finish higher in the division.

however, in a one on one game united are much nearer competing with citeh, as mourinho's inter were with 'unbeatable* barca', but mourinho's tactics altered the outcome in inter's favour.

yet despite their best league finish for some time, and a convincing victory on citeh soil, with a side that is still only half full of mourinho signings, the press are fuelling the small minded with the bullets of 'this isn't the way man.u. play', and thus the rumblings from within have started. 

i'm not sure who the next man in at old trafford will be, but it wouldn't surprise me if he finished nearer 4th' that 1st. but undoubtably they'll 'play in a better way', and to some it seems, that's all that matters.

[Tamworthowl]

15 minutes ago, dnhc said:

you've changed 1-0 victory to 0-1 defeats, OF COURSE THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE, IT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

 

Thats my point. 

You play a dour game aiming for 1-0 wins, you're more than likely going to lose a load, as happened with Stuart Gray. George Graham's Arsenal doesn't happen often. A run of victories playing attritional football can't be guaranteed. Nor can enough victories to gain promotion be guaranteed.

Whereas if you play with style ( and have the players) to win by three or four, then when it goes wrong you might still nick a 1-0 win, e.g. Man City last Saturday.

 

The flip side of the entire argument is that if we lost most games 4-3 or similar, there would be calls to tighten up and boring 1-0 wins would be welcomed.

[Anus]

I can't remember the last time I was really excited by the premiership title race, baring Leicester's freak year. But I would love to see us back playing against the top clubs in the top division. God, I really miss it.

 

Would I take one of the turds from the managerial merry-go-round with some short term view, relying on some journeymen 'that know the league'? Yes, yes I would if we got up.

 

But even better, in Jos I think we have a manager that is considering the club on the whole and looking to develop for the future. I hope he has the nounce to get us up quick sharp, but I would sacrifice a 'good' season and getting close, if it meant we could go up all the stronger the following year. I'm not sure in today's game many fan's or club's would, but I've loved this club a long time, and love ain't always easy.

[Buxtongent]

Apart from the 'top 5' in the Premiership, has anyone watched much 'Premiership ' football this season?

The only difference between the lower end of the Premiership and the top half of the Championship has not been in the quality of the football served up, but in the amount of cash available to the Premiership clubs. A good example has been the relative success of teams like Burnley and Brighton, both recent Championship teams, compared with the Swansea's West Brom's and Stoke's, all championship 'regulars.

The 'top' clubs aside, most of the League has probably seen less attractive football than the top half of the Championship, yet the manure's of this world can afford to pay one of its stars as much PER WEEK, than many clubs' total wage bill.

Money aside, and it is to me the ONLY reason to want Premiership football, is CASH. 

[matt_johno43]

I think the "brand" of footballer managers like Pullis etc play are fine over a season if they get you promoted automatically. It struck me last night that no matter how poor they were Boro that actually come May next year they will be up in the top 4 because over the course of a season they are stronger than most teams in this division. 

Those tactics however do not work in a play off situation IMO as they are two games in isolation and you can not expect a team who has been based around the ethos they play all season (IE Slow build up play crosses and knockdowns) to suddenly turn on the style and play aggressive attacking football for 2 hopefully 3 games, it just does not work, for further evidence see our play off campaign last year against the first one.  Bruce is almost the perfect model for a championship manager who wants to play "that" brand of football in the sense that actually Villa and to a degree Hull (who scored 3 in their first game against Derby) also do break at pace and can zip the ball around, but their foundations are rooted in defensive solidity and not conceding. At no Point during the 90 mins Yesterday did Boro ever threaten to score a goal let alone two to win the game. 

I do not care about the style I care about the winning of games end of, however the likelihood in this division is that if you are going for promotion there is always one side who people say are "certain" to go up from December onward leaving one other automatic spot free for a team who grind out results over a season. After that you have 4 who have fallen short, but what the previous managers tenure has taught us is that it is much harder to get a team to start playing free and expansive football with a high tempo when they have been used to simply passing side to side for 8 months of the year and I would much rather go into those games knowing the team can score goals and create plenty of chances rather than just being defensively sound. There is mo such thing as a hard earned point in a play off game. 

[dorian gray]

16 minutes ago, Tamworthowl said:

 

Thats my point. 

You play a dour game aiming for 1-0 wins, you're more than likely going to lose a load, as happened with Stuart Gray. George Graham's Arsenal doesn't happen often. A run of victories playing attritional football can't be guaranteed. Nor can enough victories to gain promotion be guaranteed.

Whereas if you play with style ( and have the players) to win by three or four, then when it goes wrong you might still nick a 1-0 win, e.g. Man City last Saturday.

 

The flip side of the entire argument is that if we lost most games 4-3 or similar, there would be calls to tighten up and boring 1-0 wins would be welcomed.

hahahahahaha! 'AND HAVE THE PLAYERS' back to my 'do you want to pay double or three times the price of your seat sir?'

a side playing for a (as you put it) dour 1-0 win are no more likely to lose than one taking the field in an 'open arsed attacking mind' who'll need to score 3, 4, or 5 for a win., but i'm not advocating dour football, although on occasion such as our previous game at wolves, and at the lane it was necessary.

now we all like to attack, and attacking football, but to get the best effect from it you must be secure at the back.

the way you attack is open to question, do you a) have the keeper roll it out to the f/b's, and the defenders pass it square from one to another as they make their way down the field, (always having in mind they are YOUR  LESS SKILLFUL players on the ball being shut down by what maybe THE OPPOSITION'S FASTEST) before releasing it to the m/f? or do you b) look to supply the attacking intent within YOUR TEAM with the ball AT THE EARLIEST OPPORTUNITY?, with m/f support looking to pick up any breaking free ball 50/50's. i know which i prefer.

[dorian gray]

4 minutes ago, matt_johno43 said:

I think the "brand" of footballer managers like Pullis etc play are fine over a season if they get you promoted automatically. It struck me last night that no matter how poor they were Boro that actually come May next year they will be up in the top 4 because over the course of a season they are stronger than most teams in this division. 

Those tactics however do not work in a play off situation IMO as they are two games in isolation and you can not expect a team who has been based around the ethos they play all season (IE Slow build up play crosses and knockdowns) to suddenly turn on the style and play aggressive attacking football for 2 hopefully 3 games, it just does not work, for further evidence see our play off campaign last year against the first one.  Bruce is almost the perfect model for a championship manager who wants to play "that" brand of football in the sense that actually Villa and to a degree Hull (who scored 3 in their first game against Derby) also do break at pace and can zip the ball around, but their foundations are rooted in defensive solidity and not conceding. At no Point during the 90 mins Yesterday did Boro ever threaten to score a goal let alone two to win the game. 

I do not care about the style I care about the winning of games end of, however the likelihood in this division is that if you are going for promotion there is always one side who people say are "certain" to go up from December onward leaving one other automatic spot free for a team who grind out results over a season. After that you have 4 who have fallen short, but what the previous managers tenure has taught us is that it is much harder to get a team to start playing free and expansive football with a high tempo when they have been used to simply passing side to side for 8 months of the year and I would much rather go into those games knowing the team can score goals and create plenty of chances rather than just being defensively sound. There is mo such thing as a hard earned point in a play off game. 

'uddersfield put us out last year with 'dour' football, 'ull didn't set wembley on fire, they didn't need to though did they? the 'better footballing side' bottled it.

[Spookone]

Everyone wants to watch free flowing exciting football, but I would take promotion if the football was less than exciting, it's a means to an end, and if we did manage to stay up, hopefully the more exciting football would arrive.

[dorian gray]

12 minutes ago, Spookone said:

Everyone wants to watch free flowing exciting football, but I would take promotion if the football was less than exciting, it's a means to an end, and if we did manage to stay up, hopefully the more exciting football would arrive.

depending upon the level of 'more exciting football' arriving, it would likely cause the less wealthy sides in the division to have relegation troubles.

two of the three relegated this term have been from the 'get rid of dinosaur football management' brigade, and within a span of a couple of years have now managed to be relegated whilst 'playing the correct way'.

also swansea were for me playing a station above themselves, resulting in them jumping up and down on a trap door to see what would happen next.

[dorian gray]

13 hours ago, mark1948 said:

 

We would all accept it. The thing is we all love winning football. I don't recollect there being many, if any, dissenters during the Jack Charlton and Howard Wilkinson eras. In fact it was a badge of honour that Wednesdayites wore with pride. We loved the likes of Kenny Dalglish bemoaning the fact that our style of football didn't just let them win. We all loved it. We loved Ron Atkinson more though because we played the beautiful game.

we wouldn't, and we didn't. firstly you can see from the answers on here that to some 'style of play' is more important than results. 

secondly, the fact that during the winning period of wilkinson's tenure  we didn't all love it, the moaners were kept quiet by results and league position, awaiting their day when sufficient numbers wanted more than a convincing victory from a game of  football. 

for clubs of a certain size, it always leads to one place, relegation.

[Quist]

The style offootball has a lot to do with resources. Stuart Gray had few resources at his disposal and in order to get results we adopted a negative style it worrked we were safe in division. When Jos took over he had few resourcesto work with and style was restricted as more players came back we became more expansive in our play and entertainment increased. I am content with a manager as long as he gets the best out of what is available to him.

Pulis plays a slow deliberate style and relies on set pieces for the majority of his teams goals. These tactics are now well worn and systems have been devised to thwart them hence his increasing lack of success. Wilkinson evolved his team and the style we played under him. For a manager to be succesful it is importnat you have more than one style you are known for otherwise will eventually get found out and to continually adapt and change over time.

[dorian gray]

9 minutes ago, Quist said:

The style offootball has a lot to do with resources. Stuart Gray had few resources at his disposal and in order to get results we adopted a negative style it worrked we were safe in division. When Jos took over he had few resourcesto work with and style was restricted as more players came back we became more expansive in our play and entertainment increased. I am content with a manager as long as he gets the best out of what is available to him.

Pulis plays a slow deliberate style and relies on set pieces for the majority of his teams goals. These tactics are now well worn and systems have been devised to thwart them hence his increasing lack of success. Wilkinson evolved his team and the style we played under him. For a manager to be succesful it is importnat you have more than one style you are known for otherwise will eventually get found out and to continually adapt and change over time.

pulis as carlos withdrew within their shell the more they were threatened.

yes i agree all aspects of football must be used for a side to be it's most effective, however some came back from wolves bemoaning 'the game' we'd played there.

maybe we should have gone for their throat and lost 7-1, i'm sure the wolves fans would have enjoyed it more, and no doubt pig one's too.

[poite]

14 hours ago, Peake said:

The problem with Pulis, Warnock and to an extent Carlos post first season is when you play terrible football and don't get instant success then things go sour very quickly. If you're someone who follows on your phone or by watching GSS then of course you don't care about style but if you're in the stands every week then you want to see progressive football. I'd rather finish 21st with Jokanovic football than 7th with Pulis football.

 

 

Well this is pretty obvious isn't It? Finishing between 7th and 21st means your neither going up or down so obviously then watching decent attacking football matters. 

 

The question is whether you'd rather finish 7th playing great football or 6th playing boring football

[torryowl]

what sends fans home happy , a dull 1-0 win or an exciting 3-4 defeat , I know which one I prefer but reading this thread i'm not sure that everyone as the same view ..

[room0035]

16 hours ago, Rogerwyldesmullet said:

Not about ticket prices, more Would we go up at any price in terms of football style?

 

Reflecting on the strong negative reactions to Carlos even in season 2, watching Derby last night and this (Grealish apart) rubbishy rustic second semi, I’m actually not sure whether getting to the Prem at any price is where folk are at any more. 

 

As a Megson Cult member until recently I used to think “let’s get there and then worry about it..” but now I’m not so sure - I must be getting old / or wise /or daft - maybe there’s more to footy than winning....

 

So I’ll ask the question, how many of us would take a Warnock - Pulis style of footy  if it guaranteed us promotion? 

We are paying premier ship prices and above for what has been for most of the season not Championship standard football.

 

If paying the high price that we currently pay meant we got free flowing attacking football then as most fans already pay them then bring it on. The problem is we are paying the prices but get the crap entertainment so something has to chance.

 

As for ways to get promoted it fairly simple and the way many teams have done it in the past get a solid team of championship quality play them each week give 100% from the 1st to the last minute and you will will more than you lose. You don't need anything exotic just players that want to play for the team and achieve something with us, all of those who are here to sit on their ar5es and one last big pay day Adbi, Matias, Fletcher, Jones you know who you are the three teams coming down from the Premier league with there none adhering to FFP might want you but we don't.

[Lythamowl]

on the unlikely event that we do get there, which would be great fun, lets face it people a home win against bornemouth will unleash unmittigated joy and the top 6 would just batter the living $hit out of us.

[HOOTIE AND THE SHIT TU]

4 hours ago, Hougoumont said:

I stood watching us get mullered at Walsall and vowed I would not renew my season ticket even if Megson got us promoted that season. He didn't, Jones did and I renewed. If football becomes a dirge then what's the point in it? During my years of watching Wednesday only the Buckingham side, Atkinson side and the first season under Carlos has given me that buzz that I need and several others...most notably Megson, Eustace and Sturrock have left me totally flattened by their turgid football. 

I was there too, don't remember us getting mullered though

 

We were winning 1-0 until Megson decided to take off Ben Marshall and Rob Jones to 'save them for the next game'

 

We stopped attacking, and Walsall scored 2 late goals

 

Megson had a terrible habit of taking players off with about 25 minutes of the game left, and siting back same as Pullis does, he did it when we were 4-2 up against Huddersfield, by again taking Marshall off.

 

But I agree about the dirge, I've had enough of watching poor football under these tactical managers, I was there when we were succesful, so it's not all about winning for me.

 

It's about having an afternoon with my son, and watching a decent game, if we get a Pullis, and it becomes all about getting in front then spending the rest of the game parking the bus, then I'm out.