Second Guessing Darren Moore

[Geörge Whitebread]

46 minutes ago, WalworthOwl said:

 

You remember that Kamberi and Jaden Brown were starters early in the season, and before Christmas we all thought Berahino was a failure?

 

Going back to the question about formation for next season, I think a lot will depend on what strikers we manage to sign, they're the expensive/big salary players for good reason and it makes sense to adapt tactics around who we can get.  I think Johnson, Hunt and Palmer are excellent League One wingbacks so probably stay with three at the back if Hunt stays.

 

Palmer is an excellent defender at this level. Right of a back 3 or left at a push. He doesn't offer enough going forward if we're serious about challenging for a top spot.

[Athelwulf]

3 hours ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

Moore spoke several times last season of adopting different formations to suit different games, but it never really happened once we hit upon our successful 3-5-2, did it?

 

Comments such as this from last October ring hollow with the benefit of seven months' hindsight, but perhaps hint at where he might want to take this squad as he shapes it further to his liking over the summer...

 

"Listen, 3-5-2 is one system I will play. It is not always the same system.

 

"Will I stick with the formation? No. Is there a possibility of going back to 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2? Yes, there is every possibility I could back to them."

 

I know there'll be some on here to whom the idea of adapting our approach to suit different opponents will be anathema , but we've just seen Sunderland win the playoffs by playing a 3-4-1-2 against us, before switching to a 4-2-3-1 to face Wycombe in the final:

 

 

 

Can you imagine the meltdown on here if we'd made the final and Moore had suddenly switched to a back four?!

 

 

I joke, but that meltdown wouldn't have been without good reason, most probably. And the reason is that we simply didn't have the players to successfully adapt our approach. Clearly we recruited for a 4-2-3-1 / 4-1-4-1 last summer, but we lacked the kind of tall, athletic centre-forward to really make it work, and so 3-5-2 became pretty much our only way of playing. We needed a pair of strikers one up top; two midfielders to play alongside Bannan in the centre; and the relative security of three at the back - once we found success with our 3-5-2, we pretty much stuck with it.

 

But as much as it worked for us last season, 3-5-2 clearly isn't Moore's 'go to' formation: at Donny, he almost exclusively played 4-2-3-1, whilst at West Brom he mixed it up a bit more, switching between 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 and 3-5-2 depending on the game.

 

I'm not suggesting we're about to ditch the 3-5-2, as it's clearly serving us well, but do we think Moore might use this summer to recruit players to suit two formations in order to allow himself the tactical flexibility he seemed to hint at wanting at times last year?

 

I could see a scenario where he adds a tall, athletic target man who excels as a lone striker, and looks to play the likes of Mendez-Laing and Windass wide of him in some games, whilst using that same striker up top alongside Gregory in our familiar 3-5-2 in others, for example.

 

If we're going to adopt this more flexible approach, having that kind of option among our forwards is a must, and we'll need to recruit some wide players who are comfortable both as wing-backs and as more traditional full-backs, as well.

 

I'm thinking our two formations could look something like this:

 

 

 

So what are we saying?

 

Do we reckon Moore has seen enough success with the 3-5-2 to stick with it almost exclusively now?

 

Or do we reckon his desire for a bit more tactical flexibility will see him recruit the kind of players who allow him to adapt our formation to suit each game, à la Alex Neil and, most probably, his own natural inclination?

 

It's unknowable, and frankly does Moore even know himself?

 

If in the space of 8 months a man cannot organize a defence to defend set plays, which is one of the easisest things for a manager to do, then it doesn't inspire much confidence.

 

Personally, I hope he sticks with 3-5-2 and just hope that our quality will see us through.

 

What matters much, much more is being able to defend set plays and clearing our lines.

[Tewkesbury]

5 hours ago, Athelwulf said:

 

It's unknowable, and frankly does Moore even know himself?

 

If in the space of 8 months a man cannot organize a defence to defend set plays, which is one of the easisest things for a manager to do, then it doesn't inspire much confidence.

 

Personally, I hope he sticks with 3-5-2 and just hope that our quality will see us through.

 

What matters much, much more is being able to defend set plays and clearing our lines.

In Darren's defence, the single biggest difference in results between the first and second halves of the season has been down to set pieces.

We've been scoring a lot more than we've been conceding recently.

[Guest FoxOwl12]

9 hours ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

Moore spoke several times last season of adopting different formations to suit different games, but it never really happened once we hit upon our successful 3-5-2, did it?

 

Comments such as this from last October ring hollow with the benefit of seven months' hindsight, but perhaps hint at where he might want to take this squad as he shapes it further to his liking over the summer...

 

"Listen, 3-5-2 is one system I will play. It is not always the same system.

 

"Will I stick with the formation? No. Is there a possibility of going back to 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2? Yes, there is every possibility I could back to them."

 

I know there'll be some on here to whom the idea of adapting our approach to suit different opponents will be anathema , but we've just seen Sunderland win the playoffs by playing a 3-4-1-2 against us, before switching to a 4-2-3-1 to face Wycombe in the final:

 

 

 

Can you imagine the meltdown on here if we'd made the final and Moore had suddenly switched to a back four?!

 

 

I joke, but that meltdown wouldn't have been without good reason, most probably. And the reason is that we simply didn't have the players to successfully adapt our approach. Clearly we recruited for a 4-2-3-1 / 4-1-4-1 last summer, but we lacked the kind of tall, athletic centre-forward to really make it work, and so 3-5-2 became pretty much our only way of playing. We needed a pair of strikers one up top; two midfielders to play alongside Bannan in the centre; and the relative security of three at the back - once we found success with our 3-5-2, we pretty much stuck with it.

 

But as much as it worked for us last season, 3-5-2 clearly isn't Moore's 'go to' formation: at Donny, he almost exclusively played 4-2-3-1, whilst at West Brom he mixed it up a bit more, switching between 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 and 3-5-2 depending on the game.

 

I'm not suggesting we're about to ditch the 3-5-2, as it's clearly serving us well, but do we think Moore might use this summer to recruit players to suit two formations in order to allow himself the tactical flexibility he seemed to hint at wanting at times last year?

 

I could see a scenario where he adds a tall, athletic target man who excels as a lone striker, and looks to play the likes of Mendez-Laing and Windass wide of him in some games, whilst using that same striker up top alongside Gregory in our familiar 3-5-2 in others, for example.

 

If we're going to adopt this more flexible approach, having that kind of option among our forwards is a must, and we'll need to recruit some wide players who are comfortable both as wing-backs and as more traditional full-backs, as well.

 

I'm thinking our two formations could look something like this:

 

 

 

So what are we saying?

 

Do we reckon Moore has seen enough success with the 3-5-2 to stick with it almost exclusively now?

 

Or do we reckon his desire for a bit more tactical flexibility will see him recruit the kind of players who allow him to adapt our formation to suit each game, à la Alex Neil and, most probably, his own natural inclination?

Sunderland played 4-2-3-1 against us. 

[Guest Musttryharder]

There's quite a few on here who seem to know how to play to a certain formation and which players would fit into it. Send DM a PM because its clear he doesn't. 

We had the players to walk this league and you can throw all the statistics around as much as you like re 2nd half of the season. Fact is, we are still a 3rd tier club. 

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

43 minutes ago, FoxOwl12 said:

Sunderland played 4-2-3-1 against us. 

 

Every site I can find shows them lining up in a 3-4-1-2 at Hillsborough, for some reason...

 

 

Not that it matters a great deal to the discussion.

 

They switched between different formations, including a back three and a back four, during these past few months. I just used the playoff games as the most recent example. If that's incorrect, then take one of the other occasions where they changed formation instead.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

8 hours ago, Holmowl said:

I hope he sticks with 352 for the overwhelming majority of games. As the OP’s posts about our points tally it clearly works well enough for an auto spot.

 

I hope he recruits two out and out strikers, so we have 3 including Gregory. I hate it when we’ve tried to convert wide players.  
 

We definitely need a quality left-footed CB.

 

As for second guessing Moore, not a chance.

 

The 3-5-2 certainly worked for the most part last season, but I still think Moore might want the option to change things for certain games, or even within some games when things are tight.

 

We didn't really have the players in our squad to enable that last season, particularly up front.

 

The kind of striker he targets could be quite telling.

[Beighton Owl 87]

1 hour ago, FoxOwl12 said:

Sunderland played 4-2-3-1 against us. 

I'm sure they played with a back 3 for both games against us?

[Holmowl]

57 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

The 3-5-2 certainly worked for the most part last season, but I still think Moore might want the option to change things for certain games, or even within some games when things are tight.

 

We didn't really have the players in our squad to enable that last season, particularly up front.

 

The kind of striker he targets could be quite telling.

That’s why I said for the overwhelming majority of games, rather than every game.

 

If he spends his budget on players for one system he can keep the quality high. If he tries to be clever and have players for two or three systems we’ll end up with bits & pieces players rather than specialists.

 

 

 

 

[JemmoJemoJemmo]

It doesn’t matter what formation you play as long as you have the right personnel.

 

The way most teams get automatically promoted from League One is by finding a way to not let many goals by. Then you have a bit of quality to score what you need to get enough points - it’s rarely through free flowing football and smashing everybody.

we conceded 50 goals - it’s too many!

 

Rotherham conceded 33 and Wigan 44.

 

The teams that got promoted automatically last 5 seasons before this one conceded as follows:-

Hull 38

Peterborough 46

Coventry 30 - only played 34 matches

Rotherham 38 - played 35 matches

Luton 42

Barnsley 39

Wigan 29

Blackburn 40

United 46

Bolton 36

 

We have to go away from home and keep clean sheets, that way you get draws and scrappy 1-0 wins.

 

We were a soft touch and Moore needs to find a way to toughen us up, we must be tighter.

 

All talk about formations is nonsense.

 

Defend crosses, defend set pieces, be difficult to play through. Then the likes of Bannan and Windass will win us the matches with that little bit of quality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CircleSeven]

3-5-2 is a perfectly decent system if you have the players for it. You can do variations within it anyway and be more defensive or attacking. You can push your wingbacks right up or have them sit back. You can have the second striker up top or sat more in the midfield. Etc. 
 

As has been said it’s all about personnel. Once we got Storey in and had a CB who could play out from the back a bit and then got Hutch back who could also do so the defence was les susceptible to being pressed into mistakes. Once Luongo was back to break up play and protest he defence and stayed fit we looked more solid. 
 

But even then we conceded a few daft goals. 
 

At the end of the day we missed out on promotion by six points. If we can improve at defending a bit and keep our attacking decent we should be fine with 3-5-2. To recruit for multiple formations in League One seems over the top for me. 

[ZicoSterland2]

11 hours ago, SiJ said:

I'm sorry, but your ability to talk utter bo11ocks is unparalleled on this site. 

 

We don't have any wingbacks? 

 

Marvin Johnson and Jack Hunt are wingbacks. 

 

What a whazzock. 

This anti-Moore bull never ends. He knew enough to get us too the playoffs with no money and little or no squad last July. He cobbled a squad of freebies and loans and took us to fourth playing some of the best football seen since CC first season. This season we have the backbone of a squad and I trust Moore will again fill in the gaps. There is no reason to think we can't build on last season and look to challenge for the automatic promotion places. I feel some on here just think we are entitled to just turn up for matches and the opposition 

just give us the points, sadly that is a fantasy we have to scrap and battle for every point in this league.

[Big Jack]

10 hours ago, Tewkesbury said:

Here's a question.

 

Based on last season, if you were an agent for a young attacker, looking for gametime and to make his mark, would you recommend Wednesday, or one of the other 8-9 clubs who will be competing for playoff spots?

100%. A manager  with good reputation of coaching young players and massive crowds to play in front of. Ideal experience for any young player.

[Tewkesbury]

8 minutes ago, Asio otus said:

100%. A manager  with good reputation of coaching young players and massive crowds to play in front of. Ideal experience for any young player.

Where do you get the gametime as an attacker though?

 

Rotating with Pato up front?

Wingback? Just to get dropped for Johnson or Hunt after your first mistake?

AM, nope, that's Bannan.

 

DM has defaulted to experience at every opportunity this season.  Younger players get dropped after one bad performance, older players have always had the starts when available.

 

If you come here as a young player, you're going to spend a lot more time sat with those massive crowds than in front of them.

 

Or you can go to another club, play the same teams, start every game, play in your own position.

[CircleSeven]

5 minutes ago, Tewkesbury said:

Where do you get the gametime as an attacker though?

 

Rotating with Pato up front?

Wingback? Just to get dropped for Johnson or Hunt after your first mistake?

AM, nope, that's Bannan.

 

DM has defaulted to experience at every opportunity this season.  Younger players get dropped after one bad performance, older players have always had the starts when available.

 

If you come here as a young player, you're going to spend a lot more time sat with those massive crowds than in front of them.

 

Or you can go to another club, play the same teams, start every game, play in your own position.

I can’t think of many occasions where young players came in and got dropped. Mainly I remember our younger players getting injured. John-Jules would have got game time if he’d avoided injury. I suppose Corbeanu got left out but really wasn’t a wingback. I know a lot of our more experienced players played a lot. But that’s because they were the ones who weren’t injured or played well. I’ve never seen any evidence that DM is dogmatic about playing experience over youth. Adeniran, Shodipo, Gibson were all starters when fit. Which wasn’t very often!

[Pulcinella]

There's an elephant in the room not being talked about...

 

Whilst teams want to win all games, there's a bigger psychological boost beating a team the size of Wednesday (or Derby this next season). There's no way out of that - only by playing in a league appropriate to our size. That's part of the reason Sunderland found it so hard to go back up.

[Big Jack]

30 minutes ago, Tewkesbury said:

Where do you get the gametime as an attacker though?

 

Rotating with Pato up front?

Wingback? Just to get dropped for Johnson or Hunt after your first mistake?

AM, nope, that's Bannan.

 

DM has defaulted to experience at every opportunity this season.  Younger players get dropped after one bad performance, older players have always had the starts when available.

 

If you come here as a young player, you're going to spend a lot more time sat with those massive crowds than in front of them.

 

Or you can go to another club, play the same teams, start every game, play in your own position.

No player is guaranteed a starting role and loans were lending club dictate that the player plays regardless are to be avoided. Loan players have to earn their place. Sometimes other players will get the nod before them or they don't find the consistency to keep a place. Its all part of the learning curve , including being on the bench.

 

[Tewkesbury]

5 minutes ago, Asio otus said:

No player is guaranteed a starting role and loans were lending club dictate that the player plays regardless are to be avoided. Loan players have to earn their place. Sometimes other players will get the nod before them or they don't find the consistency to keep a place. Its all part of the learning curve , including being on the bench.

 

But the calibre of player that's being touted on here will want a guaranteed (within reason) start as a minimum, something they're much more likely to get elsewhere. 

 

Look at Hirst, for example. There's no way he would have been given the run of games here that led to his late season form.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

This anti-Moore bull never ends. He knew enough to get us too the playoffs with no money and little or no squad last July. He cobbled a squad of freebies and loans and took us to fourth playing some of the best football seen since CC first season. This season we have the backbone of a squad and I trust Moore will again fill in the gaps. There is no reason to think we can't build on last season and look to challenge for the automatic promotion places. I feel some on here just think we are entitled to just turn up for matches and the opposition 

just give us the points, sadly that is a fantasy we have to scrap and battle for every point in this league.

No money? Mate we had the highest wage bill in the division and probably the largest squad 

[Athelwulf]

7 hours ago, Tewkesbury said:

In Darren's defence, the single biggest difference in results between the first and second halves of the season has been down to set pieces.

We've been scoring a lot more than we've been conceding recently.

 

Fair enough, and I don't think we've tipped and tapped as much in our own defensive third either.

 

But Bolton was costly...

 

In the same way that Baz Bannan is too good for this level as a player, Neil was too good for this level as a manager.

 

It's unfortunate that we ran into him, and hopefully we'll not be encountering his like again at this level any time soon.

 

We've got to take a leaf out of Rotherham's book and be mean and ruthless in defence.

 

If we have to bring someone in to sort out that aspect of the team, then so be it.

 

But we absolutely have to get that right above all else.

 

You can't lose if you don't concede, and points make prizes.

 

There's nothing in this game for presentation.