Second Guessing Darren Moore

[SiJ]

Just now, Tewkesbury said:

That's my point.

 

He had all his favourites playing.

If they're available and fully fit, they play, regardless of opposition. He only usually tinkers with the positions of the ones who aren't available. If he does, which is rare, it's one player for one game then back to normal.

As far as I remember, the only change for purely tactical purposes was Palmer at RWB v Sunderland, all the others have been due to fatigue or injury.

Who are these favs who play all the time that you yourself wouldn't pick? 

 

And who would you have brought in for these favs? 

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

Just now, SiJ said:

You'd think 3-5-2. 

 

We looked a far better side once we had got to grips with that system. 

 

Not sure we've got the personnel to play 4-2-3-1 tbh. 

 

Feel like we need a bit more pace all over the side to do that, a bit more mobility in the forward areas. Really like Gregory, but think he's better with a partner. 

 

18 replies in and finally somebody's addressed the topic at hand.

 

Seriously, thanks for that.

 

I agree - we don't have the personnel for a 4-2-3-1 as things stand, but I wonder if Moore sees an athletic, tall centre-forward who's comfortable as a lone striker as a key target this summer?

 

That would put the 4-2-3-1 a lot closer to our grasp (although we'd need a couple of full-backs unless he's happy with Palmer on the left, perhaps), and would also allow Gregory and others to play off a target man in some games rather than having to try to fulfill that kind of role themselves when we go with the 3-5-2.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

1 minute ago, SiJ said:

Who are these favs who play all the time that you yourself wouldn't pick? 

 

And who would you have brought in for these favs? 

 

Gregory.

 

Gregory.

 

Gregory.

 

Gregory.

 

Gregory.

 

[Tewkesbury]

2 minutes ago, SiJ said:

Who are these favs who play all the time that you yourself wouldn't pick? 

 

And who would you have brought in for these favs? 

Not saying I wouldn't pick any of them, it's more about picking to suit the opposition, just as AN did to us and Wycombe 

 

But the question was does he change the team by opposition?

 

No he doesn't. 

[SiJ]

1 minute ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

18 replies in and finally somebody's addressed the topic at hand.

 

Seriously, thanks for that.

 

I agree - we don't have the personnel for a 4-2-3-1 as things stand, but I wonder if Moore sees an athletic, tall centre-forward who's comfortable as a lone striker as a key target this summer?

 

That would put the 4-2-3-1 a lot closer to our grasp (although we'd need a couple of full-backs unless he's happy with Palmer on the left, perhaps), and would also allow Gregory and others to play off a target man in some games rather than having to try to fulfill that kind of role themselves when we go with the 3-5-2.

Fullback would need to be a priority too then imo. 

 

Lot of the width in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 comes from fullbacks. 

 

Hunt and Johnson as fullbacks possibly Palmer too? Hunt obviously played that role for many years, but I'm not certain how well he would do now. Johnson is a great wingback, not so sure he's got the defensive skills to play fullback for a whole season. Liam would do his usual steady job at fullback, but he's not the most dynamic going forward is he. 

[Guest DoesJackHunt]

I think he’ll do exactly that. I believe he’ll try to get versatile young players that he can utilise in different ways to be flexible as is needed game by game. 

 

It won’t go down well on here though. 

[shandypants]

46 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

Moore spoke several times last season of adopting different formations to suit different games, but it never really happened once we hit upon our successful 3-5-2, did it?

 

Comments such as this from last October ring hollow with the benefit of seven months' hindsight, but perhaps hint at where he might want to take this squad as he shapes it further to his liking over the summer...

 

"Listen, 3-5-2 is one system I will play. It is not always the same system.

 

"Will I stick with the formation? No. Is there a possibility of going back to 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2? Yes, there is every possibility I could back to them."

 

I know there'll be some on here to whom the idea of adapting our approach to suit different opponents will be anathema , but we've just seen Sunderland win the playoffs by playing a 3-4-1-2 against us, before switching to a 4-2-3-1 to face Wycombe in the final:

 

 

 

Can you imagine the meltdown on here if we'd made the final and Moore had suddenly switched to a back four?!

 

 

I joke, but that meltdown wouldn't have been without good reason, most probably. And the reason is that we simply didn't have the players to successfully adapt our approach. Clearly we recruited for a 4-2-3-1 / 4-1-4-1 last summer, but we lacked the kind of tall, athletic centre-forward to really make it work, and so 3-5-2 became pretty much our only way of playing. We needed a pair of strikers one up top; two midfielders to play alongside Bannan in the centre; and the relative security of three at the back - once we found success with our 3-5-2, we pretty much stuck with it.

 

But as much as it worked for us last season, 3-5-2 clearly isn't Moore's 'go to' formation: at Donny, he almost exclusively played 4-2-3-1, whilst at West Brom he mixed it up a bit more, switching between 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 and 3-5-2 depending on the game.

 

I'm not suggesting we're about to ditch the 3-5-2, as it's clearly serving us well, but do we think Moore might use this summer to recruit players to suit two formations in order to allow himself the tactical flexibility he seemed to hint at wanting at times last year?

 

I could see a scenario where he adds a tall, athletic target man who excels as a lone striker, and looks to play the likes of Mendez-Laing and Windass wide of him in some games, whilst using that same striker up top alongside Gregory in our familiar 3-5-2 in others, for example.

 

If we're going to adopt this more flexible approach, having that kind of option among our forwards is a must, and we'll need to recruit some wide players who are comfortable both as wing-backs and as more traditional full-backs, as well.

 

I'm thinking our two formations could look something like this:

 

 

 

So what are we saying?

 

Do we reckon Moore has seen enough success with the 3-5-2 to stick with it almost exclusively now?

 

Or do we reckon his desire for a bit more tactical flexibility will see him recruit the kind of players who allow him to adapt our formation to suit each game, à la Alex Neil and, most probably, his own natural inclination?

I think Gregory could do the lone attacker role but you clearly like tall athletic men . 

[Tewkesbury]

6 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

Gregory.

 

Gregory.

 

Gregory.

 

Gregory.

 

Gregory.

 

Nope, he's the reason we can't play 4231 though.

 

We tried that, it was a disaster.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

Just now, SiJ said:

Fullback would need to be a priority too then imo. 

 

Lot of the width in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 comes from fullbacks. 

 

Hunt and Johnson as fullbacks possibly Palmer too? Hunt obviously played that role for many years, but I'm not certain how well he would do now. Johnson is a great wingback, not so sure he's got the defensive skills to play fullback for a whole season. Liam would do his usual steady job at fullback, but he's not the most dynamic going forward is he. 

 

Again, I agree.

 

We need to recruit wingbacks for the 3-5-2 as it is. There's no way we can rely on Hunt and Johnson to play week in, week out again next season, and Palmer is really only a stand-in for that role, isn't he? As a standard full-back, he's pretty solid at this level, though.

 

I just wonder if we'll target full-backs who are comfortable covering at wingback as well, which might allow us to play two of Hunt, Johnson, Windass, or Mendez-Laing as wingers, depending on form, opposition, etc...

[Mr Farrell]

He never worked out his best team, and tinkered too much when he didn't need to.

 

A weakness he needs to improve on.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

1 minute ago, shandypants said:

I think Gregory could do the lone attacker role but you clearly like tall athletic men . 

 

Don't we all?

 

[GermanBird]

Just now, Tewkesbury said:

Nope, he's the reason we can't play 4231 though.

 

We tried that, it was a disaster.

 

Are you sure that the formation was the problem at the beginning of the season?

 

I personally believe that our main problem was that the team just had not gelled yet and when they started to know each other, we had one injury after the other.

 

I believe that the squad would have been able to play in other formations - maybe a 4231 - towards the end of the season (with Gregory)

[SiJ]

4 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

Again, I agree.

 

We need to recruit wingbacks for the 3-5-2 as it is. There's no way we can rely on Hunt and Johnson to play week in, week out again next season, and Palmer is really only a stand-in for that role, isn't he? As a standard full-back, he's pretty solid at this level, though.

 

I just wonder if we'll target full-backs who are comfortable covering at wingback as well, which might allow us to play two of Hunt, Johnson, Windass, or Mendez-Laing as wingers, depending on form, opposition, etc...

Yep. 

 

I think part of the reason why we struggled a bit against Sunderland was because Hunt and Johnson were largely running on fumes. People questioned playing Palmer in the first leg, but then there is no chance Hunt would have been able to play both games in such quick succession. 

 

We ended up getting pinned back by Robert and Clarke. It all went a bit 5-3-2 and once that happens you've got problems. 

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

8 minutes ago, Tewkesbury said:

Nope, he's the reason we can't play 4231 though.

 

We tried that, it was a disaster.

 

He's not, though, is he?

 

Well, no more than Paterson, Berahino, Windass, Kamberi, Sow...none of whom are capable of flourishing as a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1 on a consistent basis.

 

We also didn't see anything to suggest that Corbeanu, Brown or Shodipo were going to offer enough from the wide areas to make the system work on a consistent basis, either.

 

On the balance of probabilities, given how many points we picked up after the tactical switch, Moore found the system which was best suited to our squad over the course of a long, hard, League One season.

 

So what do you reckon we'll go with next season?

 

More of the same, or might we see key recruits brought in to allow a bit more variety?

Edited May 22, 2022 by areNOTwhatTHEYseem

[Weshallovercome]

I guess the players we manage to sign will ultimately dictate what formation we eventually play.

 

We really need 4 centre halves for example, if we only manage to bring in 3 and one or two of them get injured in preseason friendlies owt could happen.....there's too many variables.

 

All managers would like the opportunity to be able to play different formations, they'd be pretty crap if they didn't. 

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

2 minutes ago, SiJ said:

Yep. 

 

I think part of the reason why we struggled a bit against Sunderland was because Hunt and Johnson were largely running on fumes. People questioned playing Palmer in the first leg, but then there is no chance Hunt would have been able to play both games in such quick succession. 

 

We ended up getting pinned back by Robert and Clarke. It all went a bit 5-3-2 and once that happens you've got problems. 

 

You know what might have helped?

 

4-2-3-1, and offer a bit more support down the flanks.

 

It would have been a massive call to make that switch at that point of a playoff game, though. Especially given the options available to us to try and make it work.

 

And Moore would have been slaughtered if it hadn't won us the game. 

[Tewkesbury]

3 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

He's not, though, is he?

 

Well, no more than Paterson, Berahino, Windass, Kamberi, Sow...none of whom are capable of flourishing as a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1 on a consistent basis.

 

We also didn't see anything to suggest that Corbeanu, Brown or Shodipo were going to offer enough from the wide areas to make the system work on a consistent basis, either.

 

On the balance of probabilities, given how many points we picked up after the tactical switch, Moore found the system which was best suited to our squad over the course of a long, hard, League One season.

 

So what do you reckon we'll go with next season?

 

More of the same, or might we see key recruits brought in to allow a bit more variety?

Did any get the chance to even try?

 

4231 doesn't need a poacher up front, it needs a runner. Someone to move people about and make space for overlaps.

 

I've gone into it before, CBA now.

[SiJ]

2 minutes ago, Tewkesbury said:

CBA now.

Well, that's a relief 

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

3 minutes ago, Tewkesbury said:

Did any get the chance to even try?

 

4231 doesn't need a poacher up front, it needs a runner. Someone to move people about and make space for overlaps.

 

I've gone into it before, CBA now.

 

Good.

 

So what do you reckon for next season?

[parajack]

49 minutes ago, room0035 said:

DM has been here for over 15 months now he know the players he has, he still has no wing backs at the club, he has full backs and wingers.

 

if he want to play 3-5-2 then he need to recruit 2 wing backs, he has 1 senior centre back who has spent more time injured than playing for the last 2 years.

 

so before we even look who plays up front he needs 5 new signings, we have 2 keepers who both have not shown yet whether they are good enough for league one football.

 

Should Moore stick with 3-5-2 then he need the players to play the system which he currently does not have.S

 

should we revert to a 4-4-2 he has 2 full backs, at least two wingers, and would only then need possible 2 centre backs depending on Iorfa's fitness and whether Brennan will get more involvement.

Dont think he will go 442 few managers do these days,dont think either he is comfortable with 352, had it forced upon him

 

I think he will re recruit for 4231....and try to play it out throuh the thirds again.....with sadly the same result....may see Gregory leave as a consequence as he cant play that role..