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Second Guessing Darren Moore


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17 hours ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

Moore spoke several times last season of adopting different formations to suit different games, but it never really happened once we hit upon our successful 3-5-2, did it?

 

Comments such as this from last October ring hollow with the benefit of seven months' hindsight, but perhaps hint at where he might want to take this squad as he shapes it further to his liking over the summer...

 

"Listen, 3-5-2 is one system I will play. It is not always the same system.

 

"Will I stick with the formation? No. Is there a possibility of going back to 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2? Yes, there is every possibility I could back to them."

 

I know there'll be some on here to whom the idea of adapting our approach to suit different opponents will be anathema , but we've just seen Sunderland win the playoffs by playing a 3-4-1-2 against us, before switching to a 4-2-3-1 to face Wycombe in the final:

 

550198643_Screenshot2022-05-22at19_50_48.png.9da6b2c03070dcb70fd1b7a061717952.png

 

779365320_Screenshot2022-05-22at19_50_59.png.497b4e3963adfb815107c7929c33ebda.png

 

Can you imagine the meltdown on here if we'd made the final and Moore had suddenly switched to a back four?!

 

:duntmatter:

 

I joke, but that meltdown wouldn't have been without good reason, most probably. And the reason is that we simply didn't have the players to successfully adapt our approach. Clearly we recruited for a 4-2-3-1 / 4-1-4-1 last summer, but we lacked the kind of tall, athletic centre-forward to really make it work, and so 3-5-2 became pretty much our only way of playing. We needed a pair of strikers one up top; two midfielders to play alongside Bannan in the centre; and the relative security of three at the back - once we found success with our 3-5-2, we pretty much stuck with it.

 

But as much as it worked for us last season, 3-5-2 clearly isn't Moore's 'go to' formation: at Donny, he almost exclusively played 4-2-3-1, whilst at West Brom he mixed it up a bit more, switching between 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 and 3-5-2 depending on the game.

 

I'm not suggesting we're about to ditch the 3-5-2, as it's clearly serving us well, but do we think Moore might use this summer to recruit players to suit two formations in order to allow himself the tactical flexibility he seemed to hint at wanting at times last year?

 

I could see a scenario where he adds a tall, athletic target man who excels as a lone striker, and looks to play the likes of Mendez-Laing and Windass wide of him in some games, whilst using that same striker up top alongside Gregory in our familiar 3-5-2 in others, for example.

 

If we're going to adopt this more flexible approach, having that kind of option among our forwards is a must, and we'll need to recruit some wide players who are comfortable both as wing-backs and as more traditional full-backs, as well.

 

I'm thinking our two formations could look something like this:

 

1518914791_Screenshot2022-05-22at20_21_44.png.05914d09560d406ff3ddfe4a23a2a0f3.png

 

1365235610_Screenshot2022-05-22at20_23_16.png.4cfb01646a5368489a084c5e5abc957f.png

 

So what are we saying?

 

Do we reckon Moore has seen enough success with the 3-5-2 to stick with it almost exclusively now?

 

Or do we reckon his desire for a bit more tactical flexibility will see him recruit the kind of players who allow him to adapt our formation to suit each game, à la Alex Neil and, most probably, his own natural inclination?

I like yhe look of 4_2_3_1 or a varient of that, like you said it depends on the forwards we get.

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17 hours ago, room0035 said:

DM has been here for over 15 months now he know the players he has, he still has no wing backs at the club, he has full backs and wingers.

 

if he want to play 3-5-2 then he need to recruit 2 wing backs, he has 1 senior centre back who has spent more time injured than playing for the last 2 years.

 

so before we even look who plays up front he needs 5 new signings, we have 2 keepers who both have not shown yet whether they are good enough for league one football.

 

Should Moore stick with 3-5-2 then he need the players to play the system which he currently does not have.S

 

should we revert to a 4-4-2 he has 2 full backs, at least two wingers, and would only then need possible 2 centre backs depending on Iorfa's fitness and whether Brennan will get more involvement.

if moore can get somehow Dean in the building would be vice captain at least, his gamble was JJ at Arsenal but injured without a meaningful kick, its good Berahinho stepped up. If was Moore these 2 the 1st targets before moving to wb, maybe he should look at his strengths and play to?

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3 hours ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

No money? Mate we had the highest wage bill in the division and probably the largest squad 

We didn't spend a penny. Not Moore's fault that half the squad was on championship wages and the odd one on premier league money as he inherited the majority of high earners. The largest squad not sure but a large number of injuries in key positions disrupted what would have likely been his first choice picks. 

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57 minutes ago, Athelwulf said:

 

Fair enough, and I don't think we've tipped and tapped as much in our own defensive third either.

 

But Bolton was costly...

 

In the same way that Baz Bannan is too good for this level as a player, Neil was too good for this level as a manager.

 

It's unfortunate that we ran into him, and hopefully we'll not be encountering his like again at this level any time soon.

 

We've got to take a leaf out of Rotherham's book and be mean and ruthless in defence.

 

If we have to bring someone in to sort out that aspect of the team, then so be it.

 

But we absolutely have to get that right above all else.

 

You can't lose if you don't concede, and points make prizes.

 

There's nothing in this game for presentation.

Our formation and style will always concede goals.

 

On an average attack we have everyone up the pitch, wingbacks on the bylines, midfield on the edge of the box, defence in their half.

All it takes is one misplaced pass and a fast striker and we concede again.

 

However, on to set pieces. (I included own goals as it was originally about us putting the ball in the net in open play)

 

Pre-Ipswich, we conceded 15 set play goals in 26 games. (17 open play)

Post that we conceded 8 set piece goals in 20. (9 open play) with just 4 in the last 12 games. (8 open play)

 

The 8 games we went direct and pressed, we conceded 1 in open play and 4 set piece goals.

 

 

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4 hours ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

We didn't spend a penny. Not Moore's fault that half the squad was on championship wages and the odd one on premier league money as he inherited the majority of high earners. The largest squad not sure but a large number of injuries in key positions disrupted what would have likely been his first choice picks. 

It can be deceiving when you take on free transfers. It is not cheap nor austerity. You sometimes have to pay enormous salaries for players released from leagues higher up the food chain as the agents get busy. We were said to have the biggest wage bill in the league although spending nothing on transfers. And maybe the biggest squad. Which is why we were called the Real  Madrid of league 1. 

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4 hours ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

We didn't spend a penny. Not Moore's fault that half the squad was on championship wages and the odd one on premier league money as he inherited the majority of high earners. The largest squad not sure but a large number of injuries in key positions disrupted what would have likely been his first choice picks. 

Several  of DM’s acquisitions would have received those kind of wages . Gregory would not have come cheap, nor N M-L and Berahino. How much of the wages of B P-F , Storey and Dean did we pay? Corbeanu we will not count. That’s six DM acquisitions on championship wages although we did not pick up all the wages for every one of the, I assume.

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4 hours ago, Tewkesbury said:

Our formation and style will always concede goals.

 

On an average attack we have everyone up the pitch, wingbacks on the bylines, midfield on the edge of the box, defence in their half.

All it takes is one misplaced pass and a fast striker and we concede again.

 

However, on to set pieces. (I included own goals as it was originally about us putting the ball in the net in open play)

 

Pre-Ipswich, we conceded 15 set play goals in 26 games. (17 open play)

Post that we conceded 8 set piece goals in 20. (9 open play) with just 4 in the last 12 games. (8 open play)

 

The 8 games we went direct and pressed, we conceded 1 in open play and 4 set piece goals.

 

 

 

Thanks for the stats, Tewkes.

 

Well, based on that evidence clearly the direct/pressing game is the way to go, then.

 

The pre-Ipswich figures were shocking, and TBH we did well to make the play-offs at all after that start.

 

It's a sobering thought that when Rotherham came here on Feb 13th they had only conceded 18 league goals.

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3 hours ago, victorturner said:

Several  of DM’s acquisitions would have received those kind of wages . Gregory would not have come cheap, nor N M-L and Berahino. How much of the wages of B P-F , Storey and Dean did we pay? Corbeanu we will not count. That’s six DM acquisitions on championship wages although we did not pick up all the wages for every one of the, I assume.

Doubt Berhanio was on a big wage in Belgium and he claimed he took a drop to come here. NML was without a club so not in a great position to push for big money. Storey a Preston reserve doubtful he was an expensive loan . Gregory and Dean may well have been costly but club's such as Wigan and Ipswich were spending money that we couldn't compete with. Another question is when did half of these signings come. Storey , Dean , NML all came mid-season and Berhanio wasn't here at the start. We may have had a big squad but we needed it as yet again we more than filled the physio room with injured players. I agree that the likes of Byers and Wing would also have been on decent wages but it would seem now to compete in league 1 you have to pay reasonabley high wages. It worked for Wigan and Sunderland not sure what type of wage bill Rotherham have as they are always bleating about ours whatever league we are in.

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On 22/05/2022 at 22:52, Musttryharder said:

It doesn't matter one jot what formation you play if you haven't a game plan. DM concentrates too much on the opposition rather than let them worry about us. Is it going to change next season. Of course it won't 

You really, really, really think that?  No game plan?  You could say you disagree with his game plan or whatever, but saying he doesn't have a game plan ...that's just false.

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4 hours ago, 1867tim said:

You really, really, really think that?  No game plan?  You could say you disagree with his game plan or whatever, but saying he doesn't have a game plan ...that's just false.

So lets look at the game Hillsborough. Could you see what he was trying to achieve to overcome the 1-0 deficit from the first leg , because from where I was sitting I couldnt for the life of see what he had the players doing. I still dont think Sunderland are nothing special but Neil knew exactly how to exploit our weaknesses and stifled our midfield. We were at home we should have been on the front foot and played to our strengths. We didnt. Id love to have disagreed with his game plan but if he hadnt got one, how can I or anyone else disagree with it. Just out of interest, explain what his game plan was. Its not false mate its my opinion. 

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On 22/05/2022 at 22:29, WalworthOwl said:

 

You remember that Kamberi and Jaden Brown were starters early in the season, and before Christmas we all thought Berahino was a failure?

 

Going back to the question about formation for next season, I think a lot will depend on what strikers we manage to sign, they're the expensive/big salary players for good reason and it makes sense to adapt tactics around who we can get.  I think Johnson, Hunt and Palmer are excellent League One wingbacks so probably stay with three at the back if Hunt stays.

Berahino such a success he is leaving the Club not retained. 

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5 hours ago, Musttryharder said:

So lets look at the game Hillsborough. Could you see what he was trying to achieve to overcome the 1-0 deficit from the first leg , because from where I was sitting I couldnt for the life of see what he had the players doing. I still dont think Sunderland are nothing special but Neil knew exactly how to exploit our weaknesses and stifled our midfield. We were at home we should have been on the front foot and played to our strengths. We didnt. Id love to have disagreed with his game plan but if he hadnt got one, how can I or anyone else disagree with it. Just out of interest, explain what his game plan was. Its not false mate its my opinion. 

Tactically naive...

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17 hours ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

Doubt Berhanio was on a big wage in Belgium and he claimed he took a drop to come here. NML was without a club so not in a great position to push for big money. Storey a Preston reserve doubtful he was an expensive loan . Gregory and Dean may well have been costly but club's such as Wigan and Ipswich were spending money that we couldn't compete with. Another question is when did half of these signings come. Storey , Dean , NML all came mid-season and Berhanio wasn't here at the start. We may have had a big squad but we needed it as yet again we more than filled the physio room with injured players. I agree that the likes of Byers and Wing would also have been on decent wages but it would seem now to compete in league 1 you have to pay reasonabley high wages. It worked for Wigan and Sunderland not sure what type of wage bill Rotherham have as they are always bleating about ours whatever league we are in.

Berahino would have been on mega money at Stoke, don’t know how much but could have been 30, 40, 50 or 60k a week. They bought him in the premier league. So whilst he undoubtedly was on a lot less here it’s all relative and we’re still talking 5 figures a week probably. Compare and contrast that to other teams in this division and it shows that we weren’t operating with ‘no money’, it’s the opposite. Similarly with Gregory or NML we pay enough to attract them over championship clubs. 
 

Not sure where you’re getting it that we can’t compete financially with Ipswich or Wigan because that’s not true. We couldn’t spend money on fees was the rumour due to EFL restrictions but other than we were unrestricted. And we spent a lot more in aggregate than both of those clubs across fees and wages despite not spending anything on fees.

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48 minutes ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

Berahino would have been on mega money at Stoke, don’t know how much but could have been 30, 40, 50 or 60k a week. They bought him in the premier league. So whilst he undoubtedly was on a lot less here it’s all relative and we’re still talking 5 figures a week probably. Compare and contrast that to other teams in this division and it shows that we weren’t operating with ‘no money’, it’s the opposite. Similarly with Gregory or NML we pay enough to attract them over championship clubs. 
 

Not sure where you’re getting it that we can’t compete financially with Ipswich or Wigan because that’s not true. We couldn’t spend money on fees was the rumour due to EFL restrictions but other than we were unrestricted. And we spent a lot more in aggregate than both of those clubs across fees and wages despite not spending anything on fees.

Berhanio may have been on big wages at Stoke he wouldn't have been in Belgium.His star has massively diminished over the last 4 years or so. Gregory was not in great demand after a poor record at Stoke were he was struggling for any game time. Club's were hardly banging NML's door down or he wouldn't have sat out the first half of the season. We paid high wages in comparison to most teams in league 1 but others such as Wigan , Ipswich, Sunderland did as well. Moore had to start from scratch in July and brought in a raft of players who were available and in my opinion did a good job. This coming season much more is in place and I have faith in Moore to get us up.

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