Jim Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 It’s not going to get sorted this side of the summer, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobayashi Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 17 minutes ago, pat blondeau said: The EFL has to look at their process when issuing these charges aswell. They shouldn’t be able to charge a club in November and then just leave it hanging for months through the season. At least when UEFA charged City they said immediately what the punishment was. City will appeal it (and probably get off) but we know what they’re appealing against Surely the delay in the EFL pursuing the charges laid is because Wednesday/Chansiri have decided to challenge their authority to bring the charges rather than just defend the charges. Until the arbitration determines whether they can even bring the charges they can neither be proved or disproved, and if Chansiri is successful presumably they never will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarrowbyOwl Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 56 minutes ago, Royal_D said: Good points there, it’s as if there under pressure to put right there wrongs in allowing the loophole to be exposed to the extent it has , were they expecting such a strong legal challenge from us ? Suspect not Everybody bangs on about the 'loophole'. The fact is before 2016 proceeds from sale of fixed assets were not allowed in FFP calculations. With the move to P&S that restriction was lifted. i.e. it was a deliberate rule change, not a loophole. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick_Turpin Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 A few weeks ago I would have said take the points deduction now - if it comes to that. The thought of starting on minus points next season would effectively write next season off unless we discover a wonderful team of freebies this summer. But our recent bad run means if we get the full whack penalty of 21 points we'd be 10 points from safety with 11 games left. That would be a reyt struggle - not least psychologically. Minus 12 points though and we have a very good chance of getting out of it now Fletcher is back but who knows? Lap of the goods innit - especially with lawyers still wrangling about who knows what. Let's hope Chansiri has all his ducks in a row and any that are out of formation are inadmissible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick_Turpin Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, HarrowbyOwl said: Everybody bangs on about the 'loophole'. The fact is before 2016 proceeds from sale of fixed assets were not allowed in FFP calculations. With the move to P&S that restriction was lifted. i.e. it was a deliberate rule change, not a loophole. I think it was done to tie in with Premier League rules. The fact we've done it is not the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, owlZfan84 said: Sounds par for the course for any of us ever get involved with lawyers on anything. Very good at bringing confusion where there was once clarity. Will be citing case law etc Although I did use the term "legitimate expectation" in a phone call with HMRC earlier - who are basically trying to do an EFL on a client. Two hats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 24 minutes ago, HarrowbyOwl said: Everybody bangs on about the 'loophole'. The fact is before 2016 proceeds from sale of fixed assets were not allowed in FFP calculations. With the move to P&S that restriction was lifted. i.e. it was a deliberate rule change, not a loophole. Spot on. It's like when companies make claims for allowances or reliefs in tax legislation and some MP jumps up and down about tax avoidance because they did. Who passed the ruddy legislation - said MPs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarrowbyOwl Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, mkowl said: Sounds par for the course for any of us ever get involved with lawyers on anything. Very good at bringing confusion where there was once clarity. Will be citing case law etc Although I did use the term "legitimate expectation" in a phone call with HMRC earlier - who are basically trying to do an EFL on a client. Two hats Whoever loses is likely to be saddled with the costs. Anybody know where the EFL gets its money from - levy on member clubs, proceeds from League Cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarrowbyOwl Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 28 minutes ago, rickygoo said: A few weeks ago I would have said take the points deduction now - if it comes to that. The thought of starting on minus points next season would effectively write next season off unless we discover a wonderful team of freebies this summer. But our recent bad run means if we get the full whack penalty of 21 points we'd be 10 points from safety with 11 games left. That would be a reyt struggle - not least psychologically. Minus 12 points though and we have a very good chance of getting out of it now Fletcher is back but who knows? Lap of the goods innit - especially with lawyers still wrangling about who knows what. Let's hope Chansiri has all his ducks in a row and any that are out of formation are inadmissible. If we can drag out the arbitration, then (if we lose) the disciplinary proceedings, maybe followed by an arbitration appeal this will go past the end of the season. Assuming we lose all three cases at what point does the points deduction get allocated to next season? Given that we are not under embargo or points deduction until all proceedings are over with we could even get our summer transfer business finished before any punishment kicks in and start next season with a decent squad. I'd rather that, even starting with a points deduction, than getting dragged into a relegation battle this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barumowl Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 30 minutes ago, mkowl said: "Although I did use the term "legitimate expectation" in a phone call with HMRC earlier - who are basically trying to do an EFL on a client. Two hats" Having spent 36+ years in IR/HMRC , whilst I agree 'two hats' were not altogether absent among my former colleagues, in my experience the same was undoubtedly true of some accountants and all too many of their clients :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 6 minutes ago, Barumowl said: Having spent 36+ years in IR/HMRC , whilst I agree 'two hats' were not altogether absent among my former colleagues, in my experience the same was undoubtedly true of some accountants and all too many of their clients :-) This is a case of discussing and agreeing something over the course of the last 12 months and at the last minute a spanner gets thrown in, where the client has now taken action with its employees based on that view. So some similarities to SWFC and in this case no dispute over the facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrysgame Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, kobayashi said: Surely the delay in the EFL pursuing the charges laid is because Wednesday/Chansiri have decided to challenge their authority to bring the charges rather than just defend the charges. Until the arbitration determines whether they can even bring the charges they can neither be proved or disproved, and if Chansiri is successful presumably they never will be. Could be wrong but almost sounds like you think we shouldn't be challenging. If it's wrong it's wrong. What the EFL should have done was have clear rules that don't leave any wriggle room. And none of this up to so many points etc just be clear do this 9 points or do that 22 points etc. Anything else just smacks of self interest. Having club reps who could benefit from any deductions is just made for self interest in high punishments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarrowbyOwl Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 8 minutes ago, Harrysgame said: Could be wrong but almost sounds like you think we shouldn't be challenging. If it's wrong it's wrong. What the EFL should have done was have clear rules that don't leave any wriggle room. And none of this up to so many points etc just be clear do this 9 points or do that 22 points etc. Anything else just smacks of self interest. Having club reps who could benefit from any deductions is just made for self interest in high punishments. Punishments are not decided by club reps but independent disciplinary commissions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modboy Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Last night's win was massive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinaOwl Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 minute ago, HarrowbyOwl said: Punishments are not decided by club reps but independent disciplinary commissions Unless the Independent Disciplinary Commission is made up of club reps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, HarrowbyOwl said: Everybody bangs on about the 'loophole'. The fact is before 2016 proceeds from sale of fixed assets were not allowed in FFP calculations. With the move to P&S that restriction was lifted. i.e. it was a deliberate rule change, not a loophole. Yeah that’s fair enough, well explained to someone who’s in over there head with the whole FFP scenario if am honest I just wonder why if it’s as clear cut as you explain, why after been consulted didn’t the EFL just say ‘no that’s not allowed’ ? Not just to us but to Derby aswell who am aware aren’t accused of misconduct in backdating the accounts like us, but have still surely calculated the sale of pride park into there FFP figures ? Aston Villa also did this, before 2016 ? Am not too sure , but seems wether it’s a loophole or not it’s something the EFL have turned a blind eye to and are now wanting to change the goalposts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobayashi Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 30 minutes ago, Harrysgame said: Could be wrong but almost sounds like you think we shouldn't be challenging. If it's wrong it's wrong. What the EFL should have done was have clear rules that don't leave any wriggle room. And none of this up to so many points etc just be clear do this 9 points or do that 22 points etc. Anything else just smacks of self interest. Having club reps who could benefit from any deductions is just made for self interest in high punishments. Sounds like you cannot understand a simple point. Like you I have no idea whether Wednsday should be challenging because we don't have access to the legal advice or the private information but the fact that they challenging is preventing the charge being heard which was the point I was replying to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrysgame Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, kobayashi said: Sounds like you cannot understand a simple point. Like you I have no idea whether Wednsday should be challenging because we don't have access to the legal advice or the private information but the fact that they challenging is preventing the charge being heard which was the point I was replying to. Mmm, fair enough. In part though if EFL actually drew up clear rules with defined punishments would be easier for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The only way is S6 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Dare I ask if promotion would solve all this bollx? Crazy, but which bit of this isn’t?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 4 minutes ago, The only way is S6 said: Dare I ask if promotion would solve all this bollx? Crazy, but which bit of this isn’t?! Well look at Aston Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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