Burnsie Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Okay It is time to address the elephant in the room. I wanted to post this a few times…but after the loss vs Blackburn, I thought I’d leave it a few days so I didn’t get excommunicated. Anyway, every time we lose, we get many, many posters on here (some very regular and respected posters) that say the reason we lost was down to the fact that the players are “bottlers”, “spineless”, “cowards”. A lot of the evidence for this links back to Wembley (in fact, in the current CC thread someone has mentioned that today). Well, against Hull we didn’t play well… but did we bottle it? Or did we lose to a team that we’d not beaten that season (1 draw and 1 loss)…a team that finished places above us? Moreover, of the “bottlers” only 2 “bottlejobs” started vs Blackburn (for those who link the current team to CC’s team). We also have a different manager! Posters evidence the bottler tag due to the play-off defeats against Hudds. Now here, about 40-50% of the team are still around. And we were gash. However, maybe (as happens in big games…see many finals) two matched teams cancelled each other out. Remember, this Hudds team went up and stayed up. And then we have the “best chance to get promoted since…” Why? Cos it was “only” Reading in the final? Again, a team that finished above us and we didn’t beat them that season??? It wasn’t a forgone conclusion if we’d not “bottled” Hudds. It doesn’t matter Reading wasn’t a “name” at the time! Earlier this season when we had the chance to go third for the first time and lost (was it to Blackburn again!!)…”bottlers” “always let you down”…. But a few games later we put a run together and did get third…were we bottlers then? Loss over Christmas = Bottlers Win away at Brighton and Leeds = never mentioned Loss vs Blackburn and they are bottlers again. They cant be bottlers every time they lose of game, surely? If they were bottlers, they wouldn’t win any game, especially hard ones? Moreover, they wouldn’t be professional footballers playing very high up in the game. As many people have said, skill only takes you so far…and playing for a Championship team is very, very far! If they were bottlers, I doubt they would be pros! So maybe, just maybe, we are just not as good as people seem to think? Have we improved since CC days? If not, why do people suddenly expect us to be up there challenging? The players haven’t shown they are good enough, surely? “yes, but the players are talented…look at Hutch…he would have been a Chelsea regular if he didn’t get injured….” Well, we’ll never know, cos he did. At the start of the season, I thought we’d finish around 7-10th, I think we’re probably gonna do that (EFL depending!). Maybe we’ll finish there cos that’s how good we are based on all the teams in this league, not because of mental fortitude. But just stop with the “bottlers” tag, it just seems lazy, immature and venomous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spookone Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, Burnsie said: Okay It is time to address the elephant in the room. I wanted to post this a few times…but after the loss vs Blackburn, I thought I’d leave it a few days so I didn’t get excommunicated. Anyway, every time we lose, we get many, many posters on here (some very regular and respected posters) that say the reason we lost was down to the fact that the players are “bottlers”, “spineless”, “cowards”. A lot of the evidence for this links back to Wembley (in fact, in the current CC thread someone has mentioned that today). Well, against Hull we didn’t play well… but did we bottle it? Or did we lose to a team that we’d not beaten that season (1 draw and 1 loss)…a team that finished places above us? Moreover, of the “bottlers” only 2 “bottlejobs” started vs Blackburn (for those who link the current team to CC’s team). We also have a different manager! Posters evidence the bottler tag due to the play-off defeats against Hudds. Now here, about 40-50% of the team are still around. And we were gash. However, maybe (as happens in big games…see many finals) two matched teams cancelled each other out. Remember, this Hudds team went up and stayed up. And then we have the “best chance to get promoted since…” Why? Cos it was “only” Reading in the final? Again, a team that finished above us and we didn’t beat them that season??? It wasn’t a forgone conclusion if we’d not “bottled” Hudds. It doesn’t matter Reading wasn’t a “name” at the time! Earlier this season when we had the chance to go third for the first time and lost (was it to Blackburn again!!)…”bottlers” “always let you down”…. But a few games later we put a run together and did get third…were we bottlers then? Loss over Christmas = Bottlers Win away at Brighton and Leeds = never mentioned Loss vs Blackburn and they are bottlers again. They cant be bottlers every time they lose of game, surely? If they were bottlers, they wouldn’t win any game, especially hard ones? Moreover, they wouldn’t be professional footballers playing very high up in the game. As many people have said, skill only takes you so far…and playing for a Championship team is very, very far! If they were bottlers, I doubt they would be pros! So maybe, just maybe, we are just not as good as people seem to think? Have we improved since CC days? If not, why do people suddenly expect us to be up there challenging? The players haven’t shown they are good enough, surely? “yes, but the players are talented…look at Hutch…he would have been a Chelsea regular if he didn’t get injured….” Well, we’ll never know, cos he did. At the start of the season, I thought we’d finish around 7-10th, I think we’re probably gonna do that (EFL depending!). Maybe we’ll finish there cos that’s how good we are based on all the teams in this league, not because of mental fortitude. But just stop with the “bottlers” tag, it just seems lazy, immature and venomous. Have to say I agree, some fans just like to trot out well worn cliches so they don't have to think. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurujuan Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddogbob Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) Personally I think there is an element of that and I'm quite happy to stand by it. Lees for example. That said, I'm starting to think there might be another element linked to it. As I can't see how you go from one extreme to another performance wise. The Blackburn performance looked like a down tools type of performance. Which in a way worries me more. Edited January 24, 2020 by Maddogbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S36 OWL Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I don't think we have the players who would run through a brick wall for the cause, like, as much as I hate to say it, the Pigs do. I honestly believe our problems are down to players mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owlsontheup Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Great thought out post Burnsie, wish more would follow your lead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnsie Posted January 24, 2020 Author Share Posted January 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, S36 OWL said: I don't think we have the players who would run through a brick wall for the cause, like, as much as I hate to say it, the Pigs do. I honestly believe our problems are down to players mentality. I agree with that to an extent... Players like Messi, Ronaldo, Beckham etc were always prepared to work to be the best. I do wonder whether ours would come in extra early to work on their own skills etc. The best are the best due to skill and effort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Toni Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I wouldn't say bottlers but you don't lose 5-0 for there not to be something fundamentally wrong?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnsie Posted January 24, 2020 Author Share Posted January 24, 2020 Just now, Junk Smuggler said: I wouldn't say bottlers but you don't lose 5-0 for there not to be something fundamentally wrong?! So, is there something fundamentally wrong at Forest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthefish2002 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Would I want any of our current player in the trenches next to me? Perhaps Barry Bannan at most, rest of them wouldn't want to know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurujuan Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, S36 OWL said: I don't think we have the players who would run through a brick wall for the cause, like, as much as I hate to say it, the Pigs do. I honestly believe our problems are down to players mentality. A lot of that comes from the manager himself Take for example, big León, plenty on here labled him a fat lazy so and so, yet Wilder had him buying into his methods. Wilder and Monk are chalk and cheese Edited January 24, 2020 by gurujuan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Toni Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, Burnsie said: So, is there something fundamentally wrong at Forest? That day there was, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Toni Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, matthefish2002 said: Would I want any of our current player in the trenches next to me? Perhaps Barry Bannan at most, rest of them wouldn't want to know. Only because he's the only one small enough to fit in the barrel of a cannon when you run out of ammo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnsie Posted January 24, 2020 Author Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, matthefish2002 said: Would I want any of our current player in the trenches next to me? Perhaps Barry Bannan at most, rest of them wouldn't want to know. I get your point, but a strange analogy... No one knows how we'd react to war and it bears no relation to sport.... That said, Hutch would have kicked some Nazi ass!! Edited January 24, 2020 by Burnsie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
31Dec1966 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, Burnsie said: I agree with that to an extent... Players like Messi, Ronaldo, Beckham etc were always prepared to work to be the best. I do wonder whether ours would come in extra early to work on their own skills etc. The best are the best due to skill and effort I don't think players would say they "bottle" it, and its too simplistic, but the best players are dedicated to be winners, and thats not always the most talented. Even talented players have to work "smart" to get to the top. I knew someone who was friends with Chris Waddle and he told me Chris stayed after training to hone his skills and was always watching football (even amateur) because he knew he could always learn. In my opinion we need to be "nastier", smarter and willing to run through brick walls. Some of our players have proved over the last 3 years that they haven't got what it takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogbad Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, Junk Smuggler said: I wouldn't say bottlers but you don't lose 5-0 for there not to be something fundamentally wrong?! 6 minutes ago, Burnsie said: So, is there something fundamentally wrong at Forest? As well as showing that Monks tactics are better suited away from home I think it also indicates the frail mentality of the squad. Score an early goal & they're filled with confidence, concede early & they withdraw into their shell & we don't have the mentality to get out of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthefish2002 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Burnsie said: I get your point, but a strange analogy... No one knows how we'd react to war and it bears no relation to sport.... That said, Hutch would have kicked some Nazi ass!! I think 'who would you want in the trenches with you' is an old football saying meaning who can you rely on when the going gets tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Horse Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Thing is that prior to the Hull game, Wednesday were a club that rose to the big occasion and usually won. Caveat: In my lifetime! I saw us lift the league cup, beat the blunts in the semi, win our first ever play-off campaign at the first attempt then won promotion from under the blunts' noses again with all the assuredness of a club that was used to winning when it really mattered whilst the pigs folded. It's only since the 2016 final that we seem to have a mental block. And it's no coincidence that it's ever since these guys came into town. Indeed, the elephant (s) in the room!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthefish2002 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 1 minute ago, The Horse said: Thing is that prior to the Hull game, Wednesday were a club that rose to the big occasion and usually won. Are we talking about the same Sheffield Wednesday here!?!?!? Ever since I was a kid and before (with a few notable exceptions) Wednesday have always had a reputation of letting you down in the big games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glynnb Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 23 minutes ago, Junk Smuggler said: Only because he's the only one small enough to fit in the barrel of a cannon when you run out of ammo. Not many players of his calibre 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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