VAR - keep out the nerds.

[edwinowl]

7 minutes ago, hasthagotanycheese said:

VAR should be used only as an appeal system.

 

Each team should have 1 appeal per half. If upheld then they retain their appeal then if not they lose it.

 

I know this works in cricket which is a stop start game anyway and to a degree there may be some mileage in this but surely you would challenge any goal scored as there could be numerous things happen before the ball is put in the net.

For instance offside, foul play in the lead up etc.

I was massive for VAR only a month ago but my views are now changing, I think for offside and or a handball then without a doubt a goal should be checked but anything else we need to be very careful

[OwlofOliveGrove]

Definitely agree with those who say it should be used as an appeal system, much like hawk-eye in tennis.

 

I thought it would be a bit smoother in practice until the ref took 5 minutes to give the Salah penalty at the weekend. 

 

Nothing wrong with correcting wrong decisions, just not at the cost of the flow of the game.

[0wl18]

4 minutes ago, edwinowl said:

 

I know this works in cricket which is a stop start game anyway and to a degree there may be some mileage in this but surely you would challenge any goal scored as there could be numerous things happen before the ball is put in the net.

For instance offside, foul play in the lead up etc.

I was massive for VAR only a month ago but my views are now changing, I think for offside and or a handball then without a doubt a goal should be checked but anything else we need to be very careful

So to make a challenge you have to highlIght to the 4th official why you’re making the challenge, you can’t make it on a whim. There has to be an explanation to review.

Edited January 29, 2018 by 0wl18

[OxonOwl]

The technology is not to blame it is the rubbish way an attempt to introduce it that is the problem. I acknowledge that Rugby, Tennis and Cricket are very different sports but a lot could be learned from these sports particularly Rugby.

 

A numbered review system is one good idea.

[the monk]

29 minutes ago, matthefish2002 said:

I am against use of VAR, think will stop flow of games as happened in Liverpool v WBA.

But if they are going to use it why wasn't it trailed in something like pre season games so a few things could have been ironed out first.

 

1 problem I can foresee is something's like penalty decisions are so borderline that even after I have seen them 5 times from different angles and slow motion replays even I am not sure.

 

In that case just go with the refs decision 

[Ian]

1 hour ago, james o connor said:

The bell that was refereeing the Liverpool West Brom game loved it . Makes him feel more important and he can hide behind it 

You'll be pleased to know he won't ever referee one of our games 

[Ian]

Does anyone know what happens in the following scenario....ref isn't sure about a penalty claim by team A so decides to play on and check VAR at the next stoppage...team B then attack and a goalbound shot is "saved" on the line by a defender. Ref checks VAR and it was a penalty in the initial phase for team A so in effect that's when play should have stopped. Presumably team B don't get their penalty but does the defender of team A still get sent off for a DOGSO offence?

[fred mciver]

1 hour ago, Southie_Owl said:

VAR should not be used for subjective decisions but for matter of fact incidents, like offside. 

 

There’s not been many wrong decisions in football that have effected the final results as usually the best team win the league/cups and the worst teams get relegated. It’s not often teams can look back and say they were lucky/unlucky with refereeing decisions was the reason for their season. We have goal line technology which was the most important thing

 

I think they should focus more on retrospective action and punish people harsher after games, to try and prevent players from wanting to do bad things during matches 

Deciding whose interfering in offside is very subjective, also actual contact /offside point.

 

As the great Bill Shankly said, if he's not interferring  what's he doing on the pitch.

 

Similarly, handball requires intent and even AI can't confirm that.

 

On challenges, look how managers abuse officials now and use as a time- wasting tool. Not for me.

 

All a right shambles.

Edited January 29, 2018 by fred mciver

[cross owl]

 

 

  At this rate just scrap referees , leave the decisions to the pundits or someone sat in a central refereeing control room , no tackling whatsoever ( won't be long anyway ) continue making players fitter and stronger and fall down easier and easier , give all players from league two up a minimum wage of fifty grand a week . I'm glad I saw footie in the seventies and eighties . We may have been garbage for a chunk of it but it was far more enjoyable than the sterile sh17 on and off the pitch we are served now . It's a simple game between twenty two men/women/none of the above . It's the most popular spectator sport over the planet so why do we need to make it more and more of a ball ache to watch . Can't wait for the new chants . What's the b@$7@£d in the tin , who the f#@k programmed you or shouts of oi tin as tha got a red and white paint job under that cover . Not that I live in the past but . . . . I like it there 

[0wl18]

10 minutes ago, Ian said:

Does anyone know what happens in the following scenario....ref isn't sure about a penalty claim by team A so decides to play on and check VAR at the next stoppage...team B then attack and a goalbound shot is "saved" on the line by a defender. Ref checks VAR and it was a penalty in the initial phase for team A so in effect that's when play should have stopped. Presumably team B don't get their penalty but does the defender of team A still get sent off for a DOGSO offence?

Exactly the reason why an appeals system is needed.

[Anlaby Owl]

I agree its use is poor atm, but I'm hoping it evolves.  I don't agree that there weren't many bad decisions that influenced matches before VAR.  Refs were/are always crumbling to crowd pressure and pressure in general to give the bigger clubs a better than average rub of the green.  How many times have we seen this at hilsborough when playing man utd, Liverpool etc.  Recent statements made by a top ranking ref back this up (spurs v arsenal).  I'd also like to see some sort of justification for time added on (re Fergie time).

[Tamworthowl]

1 hour ago, BROWNLADS DAD said:

Man City had a legitimate goal disallowed yesterday by the linesman , the referee consulted with the linesman and they discussed it for several minutes , they still came up with the wrong decision !! In the same time VAR could have been used and the goal allowed , Blatant red card only given a yelllow everyone has access to replays except the official where’s the sense in that ?   

It will happen . Sooner the better bloody luddites !! 

 

VAR is only used for red card incidents, as I understand it, to remove them if incorrectly given, not to give them. If it is to give them, then we could be reviewing half a dozen challenges a match. You don't just review the definite missed reds, but the maybes as well. 

[Tamworthowl]

56 minutes ago, matthefish2002 said:

I am against use of VAR, think will stop flow of games as happened in Liverpool v WBA.

But if they are going to use it why wasn't it trailed in something like pre season games so a few things could have been ironed out first.

 

1 problem I can foresee is something's like penalty decisions are so borderline that even after I have seen them 5 times from different angles and slow motion replays even I am not sure.

 

 

If a penalty decision is borderline, then whatever the ref gives cannot be a clear and obvious mistake. So no need to review.

 

In the Salah incident, what was the ref's initial decision? He should give one before going to VAR. I may be wrong, but I think he didn't give a pen. The fact he took so long to review means there was no clear mistake. So the initial de ion should have stood and no penalty. VAR got it wrong (by wrong, I mean that they didn't follow the rules - and that's another issue. You can bet any grey areas will favour the big teams.)

[trask43]

Its a great idea in theory but seem unworkable in practice. The liverpool west brom game was unwatchable, like some kind of practice match for the real game. It quickly became apparent that any goal scored was going to have to be refered to VAR which leads to a scenario where you cant really celebrate a goal until about 5 minutes after its scored.

 

Its also hard to understand who decides to review an incident, the salah pen was soft and only an issue because he dived after a tug of the shirt then asked for it to be reviewed. An incident like this is always going to favour the bigger home teams. Is the ref really gonna review every time a spurs player pulls a newport player shirt at a corner at wembley if the newport players crowd round him enough or will he be far more likely to review when harry kane goes down.  

[Tamworthowl]

46 minutes ago, 0wl18 said:

Said the exact same thing in the non match day sections.

 

1 appeal per team per half. The manager is in charge of making an appeal, not the players. Takes away the the crowding and convincing the referee to go the VAR.

 

Criteria for an appeal are as follows.

 

-Penalty decisions both for and against.

-Goals ruled out for offside.

-Goals given but there’s a suspicion of offside.

-Red Card incidents.

 

How often are game changing decisions missed? I’d argue that there aren’t that many in all honesty which, is why limiting the number of referrals would work. 

 

As as for people complaining about a referral being used to prevent a break away etc... firstly how many times do you see a break away result in a goal? What’s more important? What might occur from a breakaway or, a definite injustice missed by the referee? 

 

 

 

 

 

Goals ruled out for offside.

 

Consider the scenario:

Ball over the top from a defender.

Forward sprints from an onside position past the defenders towards a one or one with the keeper. Defenders trailing behind.

Flag goes up, whistle blows.

Keeper and defenders stop, forward eases up, but slots the ball in the net anyway and gets booked.

Manager/captain/ref makes VAR appeal. It wasn't offside.

 

Do you give a goal?

If not, what do you do?

 

VAR has not been thought through properly. 

As it is, linesmen will stop flagging for all but the most clear cut offsides.

something similar with ref's not giving decision either.

[Oliver Cromwell]

Rugby, American Football, Cricket are all stop-go sports. Football needs to flow. Just have better trained professional refs in all 4 divisions, and just get on with it.  If all managers and players accepted decisions and stopped arguing and commenting it would be better for all.

A review team could ana;ise all matches afterwards and weed out poor refs. VAR is not needed

[0wl18]

Just now, Tamworthowl said:

Goals ruled out for offside.

 

Consider the scenario:

Ball over the top from a defender.

Forward sprints from an onside position past the defenders towards a one or one with the keeper. Defenders trailing behind.

Flag goes up, whistle blows.

Keeper and defenders stop, forward eases up, but slots the ball in the net anyway and gets booked.

Manager/captain/ref makes VAR appeal. It wasn't offside.

 

Do you give a goal?

If not, what do you do?

 

VAR has not been thought through properly. 

As it is, linesmen will stop flagging for all but the most clear cut offsides.

something similar with ref's not giving decision either.

You don’t give the goal. Whistle was blown, the ball is dead at that point. Nothing you can do in that situation technology or no technology.

 

the idea is you referee the game exactly the same as you do now. If linesman stop flagging, get rid of them, they aren’t following the rules.

 

It really isn’t hard. I understand the concerns and ultimately, it will never be perfect. The game is far from perfect now! Every home game there’s a thread whinging about the referee, give them the help they so clearly need.

 

 

[MalagaOwl]

Gonna play devil's advocate for a minute.

 

It really works in rugby. Yeah it takes away some(and only some) of the instant celebrations, the tension it can add more than makes up for it.

 

Imagine, for half a sec.

 

World cup final, last minute. 1-0 up. Defending a lead, totally under the cosh. Ball pings into a packed box. Goes through the crowd, back of the net. Appeals for handball. Nobody had a clear view. Goes to video ref. for 30 seconds the word watches as the video is played forwards and backwards, slowly and fast, as many different angles as they have it. we think it's a handball, but not sure, yet, yet. there there, there it is. The video umpire gives the signal and millions of people exhale. 

 

that'd be alright

[Tamworthowl]

42 minutes ago, Ian said:

Does anyone know what happens in the following scenario....ref isn't sure about a penalty claim by team A so decides to play on and check VAR at the next stoppage...team B then attack and a goalbound shot is "saved" on the line by a defender. Ref checks VAR and it was a penalty in the initial phase for team A so in effect that's when play should have stopped. Presumably team B don't get their penalty but does the defender of team A still get sent off for a DOGSO offence?

 

If the ref "isn't sure" then it is up to the VAR to point out "a clear and obvious mistake ". The on pitch ref can't look back at the next break. 

 

However, if the VAR does see a clear and obvious mistake the game is taken back to the incident (how many minutes this might be is anyone's guess). Team B's penalty is cancelled as is the red card for hand ball (I'm not sure whether a yellow would be removed as these aren't reviewed). More relevant might be what happens if the defender chops down team B's forward with violent conduct. The red for that should stand because violent conduct applies whether ball in play or not.

[Tamworthowl]

15 minutes ago, 0wl18 said:

You don’t give the goal. Whistle was blown, the ball is dead at that point. Nothing you can do in that situation technology or no technology.

 

the idea is you referee the game exactly the same as you do now. If linesman stop flagging, get rid of them, they aren’t following the rules.

 

It really isn’t hard. I understand the concerns and ultimately, it will never be perfect. The game is far from perfect now! Every home game there’s a thread whinging about the referee, give them the help they so clearly need.

 

 

 

But there is something you can do.

 

Presumably you want the correct decision as often as possible.

 

So the linesman doesn't flag, the ref doesn't blow, and we play on until the ball clearly goes out of play. Then you review possible offsides or fouls. You go like American football where the refs "throw the flag" but play continues, then they review the incident. Football isn't the same, but the result will be refs and linos letting play continue, because it's easier to backtrack from a mistake than to roll forward from one.