Sheffield Wednesday Steering Meeting - The Minutes

[room0035]

10 minutes ago, toppOwl said:

 

Don't agree with some of the pricing but you have no idea how much Fletcher or any other players is on.

It will never happen but maybe a bit more transparency from the club what these players are on, as fans can only go what is in the press when players sign.

 

Rhodes £40k, Fletcher £30k, Hooper £30 - 35k, Winnall £20k, Westwood £30k, Lees £20k and so on .

 

Players not playing this season or barery playing Nuihu, Matias, Kean, Palmer, Pudil, Fox, Rhodes, Winnall, Dawson, Loovens, Venancio, Abdi, Boyd - these alone must add up to £200,0000 - 300,0000 a week or £10 - £15m a season to sit watching the games with the fans, no wonder FFP is such an issue when we are paying players to sit on the backsides. 

 

For me we need 10+ players trimming from the squad or sell/loaning out, youth needs to be giving a chance Stobbs, Hirst, Penny, Ogrady etc or they will simply leave for where they will get it. Basic squad management but remembers DC policy he does not sell players. Fulham offer £17m for Fessi, to turn this down is basically insane from the club. We could have signed 2 or 3 quality players to strengthen the defense and wings and still have £5- £10m left to help FFP, instead he got injured and we haven't seen him since. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by room0035

[toppOwl]

1 minute ago, room0035 said:

It will never happen but may a bit more transparency from the club what these players are on as fans can only go what is in the press when players sign.

 

Rhodes £40k, Fletcher £30k, Hooper £30 - 35k, Winnall £20k, Westwood £30k, Lees £20k and so on .

 

Players not playing this season or barery Nuihu, Matias, Kean, Palmer, Pudil, Fox, Rhodes, Winnall, Dawson, Loovens, Venancio, Abdi, Boyd - these alone must add up to £200,0000 - 300,0000 a week or £10 - £15m a season to sit watching the games with the fans, no wonder FFP is such an issue when we are paying players to sit on the backsides. 

 

For me we need 10+ players trimming from the squad or sell/loaning out. Basic squad management but remembers DC policy he does not sell players. Fulham offer £17m for Fessi to turn this down is basically insane from the club. We could have signed 2 or 3 quality players to strengthen the defense and wings and still have £5- £10m left to help FFP, instead he got injured and we haven't seen him since. 

 

I really don't think we'll be paying those kind of sums in all honesty.

[StudentOwl]

45 minutes ago, fred mciver said:

Student Owl,

 

I hope you are not suggesting that this wall between Doyen departments is  not robust and so no conflicts will arise.

 

 

Absolutely not, I'd never suggest such a thing.

It would take a cynical individual to think that two subsidiary companies would forego professionalism in order to increase their own profit. 

[matthefish2002]

21 minutes ago, toppOwl said:

 

Don't agree with some of the pricing but you have no idea how much Fletcher or any other players is on.

 

Although we don't know exactly how much these players are on I think we can all agree its miles more then the average man in the stands. Would guess they are on probably on average Sheffielders yearly wage in a week.

Also the amount players are on has risen sharply since the Thai takeover.

[Lord Snooty]

5 hours ago, Whitechapel Owl said:

 

he also confirmed that Carlos goes to the board recommending which positions he wants to improve and then the agency/scouts go looking for players that fit that position to recommend to him with

 

Who are these scouts?

I'm old fashioned id like Carlos to have his own scout.  A man who's judgement he trusted on players as much as his own.  

Or for him to hand over lists of names rather than positions. 

On this score,  I do have some genuine sympathy with Carlos.

 

Quote

 

DC realises fans expectations have risen over the past 2 years and still believes we have the squad to push for promotion this season DC said hey had on a couple of occasions taken note of fans desires to signed certain players

 

Which we all long suspected. Though it is and always will be a barmy avenue to go down.

 

Quote

 

DC takes full responsibility for the club both on and off the field he again raised the issue of social abuse both to his family and to the players on Twitter and Facebook if the fans have something to say about the club they should email him direct and he will answer all points raised

 

Never any need for some of the awful abuse that goes on. 

Though again, why high profile people put themselves out there so the online snipers can take aim with their bile filled arsenals I've never quote understood. 

 

Quote

 

he hasn’t ruled out naming rights for the stadium

 

Wed not be the first or the last. Genuinely,  this wouldn't bother me. Because spiritually it will always be Hillsborough. I'll always call it Hillsborough.  If it helps us in the long run then ..ok

 

Quote

 

the infant kits do not have embroidered badges and logos as they believed this would cause irritation to those wearing them

 

the club confirmed that they are to continue dealing directly with the manufacturer and plans are already in place regarding next season’s kits

 

it was confirmed that the quality will be even better next season than this and they had learnt a lot of lessons from this season’s issues

 

Always was going to be some issues in making a break from the conventional way of doing things. Long term I think it's a good idea. This season has been a bit of a balls up, but having more control,  to me, is a food thing overall. 

 

Quote

DC said that returning to a striped home shirt wasn’t out of the question but wouldn’t be drawn into whether that was going to be a possibility

 

Hmmmm. 

Convinced we've seen the back of them. But we'll see what the future holds.

 

 

Quote

 

Yobs

there is a text number in the programme for you to use immediately if you see anything of that nature when we are at at Home game the club will then monitor CCTV and act with immediate effect

 

Good. 

 

Quote

 

the club are looking at ways to raise our profile globally but until we reach the PL this is difficult the club are looking at an International Facebook page and are looking to establish links with Universities in the Far East to raise it

 

Best way to build a profile is to have a set identity and of course be in the top flight. Which is easier said than done.

 

Quote

 

 

Between 200 and 300 tickets are given away to schools for every home game to attract the youngsters to S6 and a junior season ticket holder is chosen each game to be a mascot

 

Good. Get them hooked. But let's make sure when they're older they can afford to carry on the love affair. 

 

Quote

With regards to decision making at the club DC confirmed that it has 10 Managers all given the authority to make key decisions within the club and that he does hand control to them

 

Delegation is key.  It's making sure those managers know what they are doing that is the important thing.

 

[Lord Snooty]

26 minutes ago, toppOwl said:

 

I really don't think we'll be paying those kind of sums in all honesty.

 

Many of our players have been signed from bottom end Premier League and top end Championship teams. The fees and wages are always going to cost into the millions in wages even if they are free transfers. 

 

I mean how much does a transfer cost?

Well a lot more than the headline fees that we all spout on here.

Look at Jordan Rhodes for example and how that deal could break down when you add it all all up you're heading towards  £25m.

 

 

Take £8m -  as the starting point, a fee widely accepted on Owlstalk of being the fee. 

For a start add 20% standard rate VAT payable on all domestic transfers (but not on deals between EU countries which is probably why so many clubs do their shipping abroad).

And then you have to add the Football League transfer levy of 5% .

 

So you are already up to £10.5m before the ink is dry.

 

Then there is the signing on fee. If a player doesn’t ask for a transfer then he is entitled to a slice of the action, which is usually around the 10% mark .

So that is up to £11.5m before a ball is kicked.

 

Then there are clauses and bonuses that are built into the deal.

 

Maybe a promotion bonus of £1m and other performance triggered payments, top flight survival if we do go up, of up to another £1m .

So that is £13.5m before you even consider wages.

 

The usual formula (not an exact science but we know from previously released details is a decent rule of thumb) is that whatever the fee is, project that again over the life of the contract.

So a £1m player could expect £1m over four years, or £250,000 a year, or £5,000 a week. Give or take.

 

A £4m player like Abdi would expect £4m over four years, or £1m a year, or £20,000 a week. Give or take.

 

An £8m player you can double that again to £2m a year or £40,000 a week, give or take.

 

If big players come in on free transfers like  Jones , Boyd, Fletcher they start talks from a notional value and expect the standard wages for that level and then a split the difference dividend out of the money saved.

 

So a free agent like say Fletcher who Sunderland had signed for £12m is probably “worth” £4m ay his age and in the market would probably expect the £4m in wages plus maybe another £1mfrom the notional saving. And so on.

 

So let’s assume Jordan , a £10m player is on £50,000 a week. (Im over egging the pudding to simplify the maths) Over four years... that is £8.32m .

 

Then we have to remember that Sheffield Wednesday is a business and our players are  employees.

So Wednesday have to pay 13% national insurance contributions on that wage packet. Thatd be £1,069,900 on top of the basic cost.

So totting up.... A wage commitment of £9,389,900 over four years . Give or take-  these are only estimates to give an example.

 

Add that to the £11.5m basic cost of the transfer before a ball was kicked and we have a total of £20, 889,900 . Give or take.

 

Flabbergasting money we're talking here for  a lad who for whatever reason might not even get in the side!

 

Then you have to add the extras

A player with that price-tag and a keen agent will be angling for every single extra going.

 

Appearance bonus?

Goal bonus?

Win bonus?

Bonuses tied to where in the table we finish?

Automatic annual pay-increases?

Top wage parity with anyone new who comes in? (Look at Fernando when we signed Fletcher)

 

It wouldn’t be unusual for an agent to ask for £2,000 plus per game appearance fee.

(Wim Jonks agent was asking us for that 20 years ago!)

At 40 games a season that is £80,000.

Times four. That’s £320,000.

Goal bonus?

£2000 a piece. 

 At 15 goals a season?

That another £30, 000.

Times four. Or £120,000

So the package now is up to up just north of £21,000,000.

(Ok the likelihood of Rhodes getting 60 goals in the next 4 years doesn't look that likely. But the money would still have to be accounted for.)

 

Has he got an agent or did he represent himself? 

Probably an agent. He will want his cut.

A big whack up front.

Wednesday would prefer it is spread out over the life of the deal so as to dissuade him from moving a player on and the agent agitating for a mile away too soon.

 

However you slice it, an agent would probably would probably ask for £800k on a £8m deal .

 

Theoretically we are looking at £22,000,000.

 

 

Sloshing money on a deal can soon stack up. We all wanted Chansiri  to come in and "show ambition” and spend big but like an iceberg, most of the weight is below the surface and we have to make sure we aren't the Titanic.  We've been down that road before.

 

*These are guestimate figures 

**Maths isn't my strong suit.im sure someone will find a mistake. But it still paints the picture 

[prowl]

3 hours ago, owls maniac said:

The high pricing for the sake FFP is a huge red herring in my view. When you’ve got players like Fletcher on £30k a week the money on the gate is a drop in the ocean. It’s greed- pure and simple- and will alienate a lot of supporters in the long term.

Are you saying Fletcher is greedy or Chansiri?

 

I don't think you can call Fletcher greedy if the club are prepared to pay an amount he'd be daft to say 'no, that's too much.@

 

If it's Chansiri, Again I can't agree. He's put a lot of money into the club, I don't see how that is "greed - pure and simple". Even if he is doing it as an investment it's still a lot of money. Milan bought us and made money, we were an investment to him and he made money, not many complained.

 

If you meant something else I must have misunderstood.

[S36 OWL]

So keep screwing the fans with ticket prices 

[HirstWhoScoredIt]

10 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

Many of our players have been signed from bottom end Premier League and top end Championship teams. The fees and wages are always going to cost into the millions in wages even if they are free transfers. 

 

I mean how much does a transfer cost?

Well a lot more than the headline fees that we all spout on here.

Look at Jordan Rhodes for example and how that deal could break down when you add it all all up you're heading towards  £25m.

 

 

Take £8m -  as the starting point, a fee widely accepted on Owlstalk of being the fee. 

For a start add 20% standard rate VAT payable on all domestic transfers (but not on deals between EU countries which is probably why so many clubs do their shipping abroad).

And then you have to add the Football League transfer levy of 5% .

 

So you are already up to £10.5m before the ink is dry.

 

Then there is the signing on fee. If a player doesn’t ask for a transfer then he is entitled to a slice of the action, which is usually around the 10% mark .

So that is up to £11.5m before a ball is kicked.

 

Then there are clauses and bonuses that are built into the deal.

 

Maybe a promotion bonus of £1m and other performance triggered payments, top flight survival if we do go up, of up to another £1m .

So that is £13.5m before you even consider wages.

 

The usual formula (not an exact science but we know from previously released details is a decent rule of thumb) is that whatever the fee is, project that again over the life of the contract.

So a £1m player could expect £1m over four years, or £250,000 a year, or £5,000 a week. Give or take.

 

A £4m player like Abdi would expect £4m over four years, or £1m a year, or £20,000 a week. Give or take.

 

An £8m player you can double that again to £2m a year or £40,000 a week, give or take.

 

If big players come in on free transfers like  Jones , Boyd, Fletcher they start talks from a notional value and expect the standard wages for that level and then a split the difference dividend out of the money saved.

 

So a free agent like say Fletcher who Sunderland had signed for £12m is probably “worth” £4m ay his age and in the market would probably expect the £4m in wages plus maybe another £1mfrom the notional saving. And so on.

 

So let’s assume Jordan , a £10m player is on £50,000 a week. (Im over egging the pudding to simplify the maths) Over four years... that is £8.32m .

 

Then we have to remember that Sheffield Wednesday is a business and our players are  employees.

So Wednesday have to pay 13% national insurance contributions on that wage packet. Thatd be £1,069,900 on top of the basic cost.

So totting up.... A wage commitment of £9,389,900 over four years . Give or take-  these are only estimates to give an example.

 

Add that to the £11.5m basic cost of the transfer before a ball was kicked and we have a total of £20, 889,900 . Give or take.

 

Flabbergasting money we're talking here for  a lad who for whatever reason might not even get in the side!

 

Then you have to add the extras

A player with that price-tag and a keen agent will be angling for every single extra going.

 

Appearance bonus?

Goal bonus?

Win bonus?

Bonuses tied to where in the table we finish?

Automatic annual pay-increases?

Top wage parity with anyone new who comes in? (Look at Fernando when we signed Fletcher)

 

It wouldn’t be unusual for an agent to ask for £2,000 plus per game appearance fee.

(Wim Jonks agent was asking us for that 20 years ago!)

At 40 games a season that is £80,000.

Times four. That’s £320,000.

Goal bonus?

£2000 a piece. 

 At 15 goals a season?

That another £30, 000.

Times four. Or £120,000

So the package now is up to up just north of £21,000,000.

(Ok the likelihood of Rhodes getting 60 goals in the next 4 years doesn't look that likely. But the money would still have to be accounted for.)

 

Has he got an agent or did he represent himself? 

Probably an agent. He will want his cut.

A big whack up front.

Wednesday would prefer it is spread out over the life of the deal so as to dissuade him from moving a player on and the agent agitating for a mile away too soon.

 

However you slice it, an agent would probably would probably ask for £800k on a £8m deal .

 

Theoretically we are looking at £22,000,000.

 

 

Sloshing money on a deal can soon stack up. We all wanted Chansiri  to come in and "show ambition” and spend big but like an iceberg, most of the weight is below the surface and we have to make sure we aren't the Titanic.  We've been down that road before.

 

*These are guestimate figures 

**Maths isn't my strong suit.im sure someone will find a mistake. But it still paints the picture 

Just a few pedantic points.  The VAT on a transfer would be claimed back so would only be a cash flow issue until one month after the VAT return went in.

 

I have it on very good authority that the wage of Jordan Rhodes is £62,500 per week believe it or not.

[shezzas left peg]

1 hour ago, OWLERTON GHOST said:

Total agreement here 

However ....

The wife's favorite sayings are ;

"You get what you pay for"

&

"Buy cheap get cheap"

This currently does not apply in the realms of "wednesday" presently.... 

Haha yeah and at the moment were being served Aldi baked beans at heinze baked bean prices.

[@owlstalk]

1 minute ago, HirstWhoScoredIt said:

 

I have it on very good authority that the wage of Jordan Rhodes is £62,500 per week believe it or not.

Corrrrr blimey

 

[HirstWhoScoredIt]

Just now, @owlstalk said:

Corrrrr blimey

 

Yep £3m per year.

[@owlstalk]

1 minute ago, HirstWhoScoredIt said:

Yep £3m per year.

 

That's a lot of club 1867's

Or Cakeballs

 

 

[Ronseal]

Our losses must be eye watering..this is not goin to end well

[BobsMagicCalculator]

1 minute ago, HirstWhoScoredIt said:

Yep £3m per year.

 

[OWLERTON GHOST]

4 minutes ago, HirstWhoScoredIt said:

Just a few pedantic points.  The VAT on a transfer would be claimed back so would only be a cash flow issue until one month after the VAT return went in.

 

I have it on very good authority that the wage of Jordan Rhodes is £62,500 per week believe it or not.

Only 2.500 grand a week more that me ..

The Flash Get !! 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, room0035 said:

It will never happen but maybe a bit more transparency from the club what these players are on, as fans can only go what is in the press when players sign.

 

Rhodes £40k, Fletcher £30k, Hooper £30 - 35k, Winnall £20k, Westwood £30k, Lees £20k and so on .

 

Players not playing this season or barery playing Nuihu, Matias, Kean, Palmer, Pudil, Fox, Rhodes, Winnall, Dawson, Loovens, Venancio, Abdi, Boyd - these alone must add up to £200,0000 - 300,0000 a week or £10 - £15m a season to sit watching the games with the fans, no wonder FFP is such an issue when we are paying players to sit on the backsides. 

 

For me we need 10+ players trimming from the squad or sell/loaning out, youth needs to be giving a chance Stobbs, Hirst, Penny, Ogrady etc or they will simply leave for where they will get it. Basic squad management but remembers DC policy he does not sell players. Fulham offer £17m for Fessi, to turn this down is basically insane from the club. We could have signed 2 or 3 quality players to strengthen the defense and wings and still have £5- £10m left to help FFP, instead he got injured and we haven't seen him since. 

2 or 3 quality players and still have 10 mil left wat plant you on

[Ronseal]

6 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 

That's a lot of club 1867's

Or Cakeballs

 

 

Or beach towels and pencil cases..the shop income wont make a dent in our outgoings..no wonder the club dont care about it

[HirstWhoScoredIt]

9 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 

That's a lot of club 1867's

Or Cakeballs

 

 

I think the accounts for y/e June 2017 will open the eyes of a lot of fans.

 

Forestieri

Hooper

Fletcher

Rhodes

Winnall

Joao

Nuhiu

 

Just think about the above.  Now these are complete guesses but if I was to say:-

 

Forestieri £35K (signed new contract after we reject large bid for him - apparently not happy that so many players earned more than him - cant be far off)

Hooper £34K (widely reported)

Fletcher £30K

Rhodes £62.5K

Winnall £17K (widely reported)

Joao £12K (total guess)

Nuhiu £10K (total guess)

 

£200K per week on strikers = £10m per year

 

Even if people think I have over egged it, surely they don't think by much.

 

Does anybody think another Championship club will be spending anywhere near this on strikers alone?  And some of them have parachute payments

Edited October 26, 2017 by HirstWhoScoredIt

[@owlstalk]

2 minutes ago, Ronseal said:

Or beach towels and pencil cases..the shop income wont make a dent in our outgoings..no wonder the club dont care about it

Yeah good point