Carlos, Wednesday and the jigsaw piece....

[exiledowl49]

I think this is bang on the money and I would personally like Carlos to stay. He's the best manager we have had since Harry Catterick and unfortunately I am old enough to have watched that team as a boy. Lots of people go on about our early nineties team but believe me that early sixties team was something special. I went to a talk by Jimmy Greaves some years ago and he said that that team was one of the best he played against. When on England duty apparently he used to share a room with Peter Swan.

 

I think that Mr. Chansiri and Carlos are building a project and this takes time and patience much of which is missing in the modern game. Success needs stability. It took Fergie 5 years at Man U before they started to really deliver. What if he had only been given two years where would Man U be now?

 

Yes, the footy wasn't pretty this year but we got more points and moved up the table by two places. A similar improvement next year would mean automatic promotion. Changing the manager without good cause is not a solution. Despite the disappointment of Wednesday night why would we want Carlos to move (I see Norwich are sniffing round him) what an outcry if he went there and got them up! Who would we replace him with and would we maintain our upward momentum for that is what we have for the first time in many years, Look at Birmingham sacked Rowett for a 'name' manager and nearly got relegated be careful what you wish for.

 

Let's not forget how far we have come in two years. I used to start the season hoping we wouldn't get relegated now I expect us to be in the top six at least, The summer signings will be crucial my view is that we certainly need a 'box to box' bruiser a la Yaya Toure in midfield we get bullied out of games too often.

[gurujuan]

Five years ago I would have been delighted had we signed Jordan Rhodes, but as Snooty says, back then everybody played 4-4-2. Nowadays, in the top two divisions, hardly anyone does You can still make it work, as Brighton have shown, but it's becoming more difficult as clubs draft in the extra man in midfield. Midfield is probably where Brighton managed to overcome the odds against them. There midfield pairing are extremely combative, hard tackling, but also comfortable on the ball. If we want to play this way, that is the type of midfield player we will need, and not just one. That would then allow us to actually play wingers who could stay wide and stretch teams. Again, we don't have wingers like that, so at least two quick and direct wingers would be needed. With wingers who are on the front foot, our full backs will need to be able to defend first and foremost, as well as push forward when the time is right. Palmer can do that, and Pudil on a good day, but Hunt and Fox, let's just say, defending isn't their strong points. Add in a new left sided centre back, something we'd need however we set up, and we might be ready to go. I say might, because I have my doubt whether there is a pairing amongst our plethora of forwards, who could give us what Murray and Baldock give Brighton. Maybe Fletcher in that system could replicate Murray, but we don't have anyone with Baldocks pace and sharpness.

The big casualties of going down the Brighton route, would obviously be Forestieri, Bannan and Wallace. Players like Hutchinson and Reach may find jobs as competition in other areas of the team. That's a lot of changes we'd have to make if we decided that a more conventional 4-4-2 was the way ahead. Perhaps a starting line up something along these lines

 

Westwood

 

Palmer

Lees 

New

New

 

New

Lee

New

New

 

Fletcher

New

Edited May 19, 2017 by gurujuan

[N0rtherner]

I nearly felt bad all I could do was press the green up-arrow for all that effort of yours. Thoroughly enjoyed the read and agreed on many a bit here and there :)

[Pastor Kidneys]

OK - I'm thinking summat like this.

 

Wouldn't have to spend a fortune this summer as we have most of the ingredients already.

 

Convert Lee to wing back (he's played full back before when younger and full of energy to get up and down the line). Similar with Reach who also has stamina but just needs to maybe brush up on his tackling (nesh sometimes). Wing backs are getting rave reviews around the country just now as more teams are playing this kind of system.

 

Bring Hutch back into central defence and buy another commanding left footed centre back.

 

Get Abdi fit and running and play Forestieri just behind the front 2. Then buy a beast of a box 2 box midfielder (Carlton Palmer type )

 

Would only really need to spend on 2 quality additions and the back up can come from what we already have in reserve. Wildsmith, Winnall, Loovens, Hunt, Sasso, Bannan, Fletcher.

 

Think we may need a new head coach to implement it though as Carlos has gone all defensive for some reason and is not big on different formations.

 

[frastheowl]

 

Superb OP.

 

Absolutely spot on.

 

Huge summer ahead. 

[Lord Snooty]

25 minutes ago, erowl said:

 

Convert Lee to wing back (he's played full back before when younger and full of energy to get up and down the line). Similar with Reach who also has stamina but just needs to maybe brush up on his tackling (nesh sometimes). Wing backs are getting rave reviews around the country just now as more teams are playing this kind of system.

 

 play Forestieri just behind the front 2. Then buy a beast of a box 2 box midfielder (Carlton Palmer type )

 

Think we may need a new head coach to implement it though as Carlos has gone all defensive for some reason and is not big on different formations.

 

 

I still remain to be convinced of Fernando in a central role. 

It think he has the capabilities to do it. But somehow... I always end up thinking the performance is a bit short changing for the ability he carries. 

 

I think there's a lot of modern footballers (all over the country) that fit into a group where you think "Good player...but what do you do with him." 

I look at Mark Chamberlains lad at the Arsenal. Smashing little player. But where do you fit them in? That Ozil is another lovely little player....but then sometimes you see him strolling about and think "he'd be last pick in a school yard game" 

 

 

[gurujuan]

1 hour ago, erowl said:

OK - I'm thinking summat like this.

 

Wouldn't have to spend a fortune this summer as we have most of the ingredients already.

 

Convert Lee to wing back (he's played full back before when younger and full of energy to get up and down the line). Similar with Reach who also has stamina but just needs to maybe brush up on his tackling (nesh sometimes). Wing backs are getting rave reviews around the country just now as more teams are playing this kind of system.

 

Bring Hutch back into central defence and buy another commanding left footed centre back.

 

Get Abdi fit and running and play Forestieri just behind the front 2. Then buy a beast of a box 2 box midfielder (Carlton Palmer type )

 

Would only really need to spend on 2 quality additions and the back up can come from what we already have in reserve. Wildsmith, Winnall, Loovens, Hunt, Sasso, Bannan, Fletcher.

 

Think we may need a new head coach to implement it though as Carlos has gone all defensive for some reason and is not big on different formations.

 

 

It certainly wouldn't cost us so much doing it that way, you're right. Not a great believer in three centre backs, but it's proven to be successful for a few clubs. Doubts about Reach at wing back too, he's very weak. Also, although I like the idea of Forestieri and Abdi playing off the front, playing behind a two is a bit ambitious. Could work though

[Pastor Kidneys]

1 hour ago, gurujuan said:

 

It certainly wouldn't cost us so much doing it that way, you're right. Not a great believer in three centre backs, but it's proven to be successful for a few clubs. Doubts about Reach at wing back too, he's very weak. Also, although I like the idea of Forestieri and Abdi playing off the front, playing behind a two is a bit ambitious. Could work though

 

Yeah it's not perfect Guru and you have a point with Reach but I think we need to adapt a bit

[davey_wells]

The OP is probably the best ive ever read on here.

 

For the record, I've been convinced that 352 is the natural set up for our squad, to utilise them as best possible.

 

Reach has a wicked left foot, played his best football as a wing back at Preston and would provide our goal-grabber strikers with a load of chances.  I just can't see Carlos bringing this system in.

 

But it's the 433 that excites me. Not necessarily because of the Arsenal game - bearing in mind that 2 of our 3 goals were from set plays and the whole scenario, full stadium etc clearly also made some players raise their game a notch above their normal level, but because it is Carlos' natural system that he knows most.  Rhodes actually played up top by himself away from home at lot at Blackburn, suggesting with a lpt of support he could play that role for us.

 

This aside though, one thing really bothered me the other night - and it was nothing to do with systems or formations. It was body language, reactions and mentality - particularly of Carlos.

 

Losing our momentum after scoring.  So many backwards throw ins. Carlos looking defeated and deflated as soon as Huddersfield equalised. A face of worry and concern, compared to Wagner who was jeeing up his players constantly. Puzzling substitutions. A huge drop in confidence.  Dealing with genuine pressure seemed a a real struggle for Carlos.  

 

Is that going to correct itself?

Edited May 19, 2017 by davey_wells

[Lord Snooty]

58 minutes ago, davey_wells said:

. It was body language, reactions and mentality - particularly of Carlos.

 

 Puzzling substitutions. A huge drop in confidence.  Dealing with genuine pressure seemed a a real struggle for Carlos.  

 

Is that going to correct itself?

 

I take the point about the Arsenal game. A big name traditional club. One of the biggest names in English football visiting. It was always there to be a special night. 

But even early in his tenure there were hints. I remember (why this in particular I don't know) a game against Reading early in his reign. It was quite a dull affair. The temp that we would see later wasn't there. But even then you could see the  concept of what he wanted to do in it's inception.  Lopez and Hutchinson in midfield with McGugan in a free role.  There was a lot of passing. At times it was clear the players were having to get used to something new.  And as is often the case players seem to confuse playing possession football with slowing things down.  Why I don't know. You'd have to asking a psychoanalyst! But gradually they were doing it with more and more speed and purpose and the Arsenal game , for me, seemed to indicate the start of some fruition period.  Then ...it seemed to get dumped. 

 

The substitutions - I can sort of see why he brought Rhodes on.  It's a change that has been used a lot recently and though not on the score sheet himself there has been little swings for us in games where that has happened.  I think it was almost a case of it being the 'routine change' . And at the time I think it could have worked as it had done before.

 

The point about the pressure is a key one.  This season after coming so close last season has added pressure from day one.  It was inevitable that as a fan base we would want the same again a play off final. But this time a win. Or even automatic.  Try as we all might the wave of optimism last season had everyone expecting ...rightly or wrongly. 

For the man who makes the calls it must be a huge burden. It's what he's paid for of course, and I would say that that if people can't hack pressure they are in the wrong business in this game...  

 

But usually there is a way to unwind. But for a man who's family is at home. How does he unwind?

And that's a genuine question because I don't know his situation. I don't know if he's renting a house. Living in a hotel or what he's doing.

But if you aren't in a situation where you go home and put the kids to bed , sit and spend time with the wife what is he doing?

If he's sitting alone somewhere that pressure won't go. There is now release. nothing to help you relax and forget for however short a period. 

When there is nothing to take your mind off it your mind would be racing. Thinking about things. Over thinking about things. 

I think there are very few of us that would know what it must be like.

[Utah Owl]

A piece of my jigsaw puzzle definitely went missing on Wednesday night.

 

Right now it's like being in the middle of a bad dream I can't wake up from. Feel like the living dead. Can someone please do a resurrection thread to bring me back round?

[Lord Snooty]

2 minutes ago, Utah Owl said:

Feel like the living dead. Can someone please do a resurrection thread to bring me back round?

 

@wednesdaywizard and @F. Spiksley are the chaps you need to see about that. 

However to set you at ease before they arrive to bring you back to the land of the living to enjoy a football free summer, remember this traditional old Red Indian saying - :

"Even the half dead zombie fan , soul pulled from body by energy sapping footy team, still  have more life than a fully fit Bothroyd"

[Utah Owl]

58 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

@wednesdaywizard and @F. Spiksley are the chaps you need to see about that. 

However to set you at ease before they arrive to bring you back to the land of the living to enjoy a football free summer, remember this traditional old Red Indian saying - :

"Even the half dead zombie fan , soul pulled from body by energy sapping footy team, still  have more life than a fully fit Bothroyd"

Cheers mate, that might have just done the trick!

[Sova]

10 hours ago, HarryJ said:

Great post and much better than one I posted in another thread.

Totally agree with the 3-5-2 although probably prefer the 3-2-3-2 approach to fill the gaps between the lines.

Need more pace though!

 

I always think that, on paper, 3-2-3-2 looks a great formation. After watching the playoff games, my main question was "Did we take the approach we did because we didn't have Hooper? In which case, does that mean Carlos doesn't believe anyone else can play his role? Or was it a particular tactic to combat Huddersfield?" I did think we would beat Huddersfield - not because I think we necessarily should, but because of the form of the two teams leading up to the game. But at the same time, I remembered that our regular season games had been quite tight, and that individual incidents (a penalty and a red card) had played a key part in them. My main worry was that something like that might happen, but this time we would be on the wrong end of it. And you could argue that it did. We lost one of our main attacking threats after 5 minutes (this when we were already without Hooper, and Forestieri appeared not to be fully fit; I'm not sure how fit Lee was either), and we had the misfortune to go second in the shoot-out, where the pressure is always greater. I do think Carlos could have made better decisions though. I take the point about the Rhodes substitution - there have been a few games where we've scored when he's come on, but I think it was too early and, having already made one substitution, we should have waited for Huddersfield to show their hand first. I thought it was strange for Nuhiu to come on too, especially if he wasn't going to take a penalty. I'm not a Nuhiu hater, but Winnall and Rhodes seem to have combined quite well together when they've played.

 

On balance, I would keep Carlos, but I fear for him, not because of the style of football we've been playing in general (I've seen enough of us losing over the years, so I'm still happy with winning however we play), but because the chairman has spent a lot of money on us (or will do, in the case of Rhodes), and he'll obviously have expectations. It's also worrying that our approach in this year's playoffs was, if anything, even less enterprising than the Hull game last year where we failed to turn up. Would we have adopted the same tactics against Reading? Quite possibly yes.

[Lord Snooty]

8 hours ago, Sova said:

 

I always think that, on paper, 3-2-3-2 looks a great formation. After watching the playoff games, my main question was "Did we take the approach we did because we didn't have Hooper? In which case, does that mean Carlos doesn't believe anyone else can play his role? Or was it a particular tactic to combat Huddersfield?" I did think we would beat Huddersfield - not because I think we necessarily should, but because of the form of the two teams leading up to the game. But at the same time, I remembered that our regular season games had been quite tight, and that individual incidents (a penalty and a red card) had played a key part in them. My main worry was that something like that might happen, but this time we would be on the wrong end of it. And you could argue that it did. We lost one of our main attacking threats after 5 minutes (this when we were already without Hooper, and Forestieri appeared not to be fully fit; I'm not sure how fit Lee was either), and we had the misfortune to go second in the shoot-out, where the pressure is always greater. I do think Carlos could have made better decisions though. I take the point about the Rhodes substitution - there have been a few games where we've scored when he's come on, but I think it was too early and, having already made one substitution, we should have waited for Huddersfield to show their hand first. I thought it was strange for Nuhiu to come on too, especially if he wasn't going to take a penalty. I'm not a Nuhiu hater, but Winnall and Rhodes seem to have combined quite well together when they've played.

 

On balance, I would keep Carlos, but I fear for him, not because of the style of football we've been playing in general (I've seen enough of us losing over the years, so I'm still happy with winning however we play), but because the chairman has spent a lot of money on us (or will do, in the case of Rhodes), and he'll obviously have expectations. It's also worrying that our approach in this year's playoffs was, if anything, even less enterprising than the Hull game last year where we failed to turn up. Would we have adopted the same tactics against Reading? Quite possibly yes.

 

I think he tried to keep things as similar as possible.  For my money Fernando was being asked to do the Hooper role. But he doesn't have Hoopers 'arse strength' when playing in that position. I actually thought he worked his socks off to little effect.

 

I agree about the Chairman. He's spending large amounts of cash on player (wages if not fees) and must be looking at it and thinking he isn't getting the return for his money. 

When you bring in players that you have actually heard of then you expect things. 

 

Which I why ,  when we do our shopping this summer I think  we'd be far better off getting young, hungry,  tailor made players,even if we haven't heard of them.  

Give me a young unheard off Calrton from Wes Brom over a 30 odd year old Jonk living on past name.

[alan48]

Do a Hudders - young , pacy , skillful up front , some craft in midfield and big meatheads at the back - worked for them !

[Lord Snooty]

25 minutes ago, alan48 said:

Do a Hudders - young , pacy , skillful up front , some craft in midfield and big meatheads at the back - worked for them !

 

Well thats the thing Alan ..

 

Strikers

We have signed in the last 12 months Hooper, Fletcher, Winnall and Rhodes.

It's a brave manager and chairman who then admit they need a different type of striker. It's tantamount to saying the transfer policy and the style of play have collided badly and been a balls up.  I just can't see it happening.

 

 

Craft in midfield

I think we do have craft in midfield. Bannan, Lee, Wallace especially are more than capable of creating a myriad of goal scoring chances but have been shackled in a system of complete defensive discipline and shape work which has almost completely muted their attacking flair. 

On their day they are Supermen in the midfield.  But our rigid tight system is a Kryptonite chain to them

 

Defence

I agree wholeheartedly we need reinforcement in defence though. The clock for me is ticking on Loovens. He's been a lot, lot better this season since he's had his niggling injury sorted. But time waits for no man and he's still had one or two niggles meaning Sasso and Hutchinson have had to cover.  

 

In many threads on here there is a lot of talk about the need for a rapid winger, etc. But that is a situation which I think can be remedied by a more positive outlook with the players  we already have on the books .  

[alan48]

Yes my Lord - my main concern is our lack of pace.We have players who run around a lot , but only have to look to Loovens and Pudil at the back who are now struggling to turn , react and sprint ; a midfield who this season haven't had the sprint power to get to the edges when we do attack [ Lee apart when he was fit ] and up front Hooper , Fletcher , Rhodes would never win a sprint race even if they do have other attributes and the wingers we have , Reach - sorry , may have some pace but cant get round a man , cant tackle , cant head , got a decent boot on him and much as I love Wallace , he to is slowing down with age - just like me and you Snooty !

[Kevan]

I think that there is one thing that is really fundamental to our failure to achieve promotion and that is playing wingers on their "wrong" side.  In other words, Wallace playing on the right when he is so blatantly left footed and even Forestieri when he plays wide left, always comes inside on to his right foot (or 90% of the time he does, anyway).

 

This method of play narrows the options for the next pass and enables the defending side to close down the play.  If we played with wingers on their "correct" side, the option of getting to the by-line and pulling a cross back for on-rushing forwards / midfield players is much more difficult to defend against, as the opposition defenders are frequently facing their own goal.  As a result, even if the cross doesn't reach a Wednesday player, there is still a possibility of an own goal or at least a corner.  If the cross is quality and reaches a Wednesday player, there's a great chance for an effort on goal.

 

The above might be an over-simplification, but I do think that it has been a very negative feature of our play for two seasons now and we could be so much more dangerous, playing wingers / wide players on their "correct" side of the field.

 

There are of course other factors, including failure to sign an additional centre back, but with a clear out of about eight players who have not featured in the squad on a regular basis, there is real potential to get things right next season.  It just needs some sensible clear thinking and planning - whether the person who does that is Carlos or somebody else, remains to be seen.

[gurujuan]

4 hours ago, Kevan said:

I think that there is one thing that is really fundamental to our failure to achieve promotion and that is playing wingers on their "wrong" side.  In other words, Wallace playing on the right when he is so blatantly left footed and even Forestieri when he plays wide left, always comes inside on to his right foot (or 90% of the time he does, anyway).

 

This method of play narrows the options for the next pass and enables the defending side to close down the play.  If we played with wingers on their "correct" side, the option of getting to the by-line and pulling a cross back for on-rushing forwards / midfield players is much more difficult to defend against, as the opposition defenders are frequently facing their own goal.  As a result, even if the cross doesn't reach a Wednesday player, there is still a possibility of an own goal or at least a corner.  If the cross is quality and reaches a Wednesday player, there's a great chance for an effort on goal.

 

The above might be an over-simplification, but I do think that it has been a very negative feature of our play for two seasons now and we could be so much more dangerous, playing wingers / wide players on their "correct" side of the field.

 

There are of course other factors, including failure to sign an additional centre back, but with a clear out of about eight players who have not featured in the squad on a regular basis, there is real potential to get things right next season.  It just needs some sensible clear thinking and planning - whether the person who does that is Carlos or somebody else, remains to be seen.

 

The reason we do that is to compensate for our two man midfield, often a lightweight two man midfield Don't agree with doing it, but that's the reason