Carlos, Wednesday and the jigsaw piece....

[IstillhateSteveBould]

Brilliant post snooty.

 

The way you describe your thoughts around the time of the Arsenal game are quite striking. I felt exactly the same way.

 

I can honestly say, around that period was the most excited I'd been as a Wednesday fan for years. Still is. Even after everything that's happened since. I really felt we were onto something special and the only thing missing was the strong yet mobile forward who could not only lead the line in a 433, but also put the ball in the net.

 

£20m and a year and half later, and we still haven't signed that player. In fact we seem to be further away from that set up than ever before. 

 

Hooper's a good player, but signing him unbalanced something that was brewing imo. It stifled Joao, who at the time looked a real prospect and the most likely contender to lead the line. It also meant that 442 was the way we were going. 

 

Tbf to Carlos, he's made it work. Despite the fact that it's been pretty unconventional in terms of a 442 and we haven't really had the players to play it.

 

I think an outsider looking in would look at our squad and think we're made for 433. 

 

             Hutch

     Lee.        Bannan

 

is a perfect 3 man midfield. They ran the show in that Arsenal game. Even the likes of Abdi and Mcgugan could slot in easily. 

 

If we'd built around that, with Forestieri left of 3 attackers and the solid defensive trio of Westwood/Lees/Loovens, I feel we could have seriously challenged automatic promotion by now.

 

The foundation is there imo. If Carlos is to stay, I'd love to see him return to his "roots" and get the best out of our best players.

[Lord Snooty]

3 minutes ago, IstillhateSteveBould said:

Brilliant post snooty.

 

The way you describe your thoughts around the time of the Arsenal game are quite striking. I felt exactly the same way.

 

I can honestly say, around that period was the most excited I'd been as a Wednesday fan for years. Still is. Even after everything that's happened since. I really felt we were onto something special and the only thing missing was the strong yet mobile forward who could not only lead the line in a 433, but also put the ball in the net.

 

£20m and a year and half later, and we still haven't signed that player. In fact we seem to be further away from that set up than ever before. 

 

Hooper's a good player, but signing him unbalanced something that was brewing imo. It stifled Joao, who at the time looked a real prospect and the most likely contender to lead the line. It also meant that 442 was the way we were going. 

 

Tbf to Carlos, he's made it work. Despite the fact that it's been pretty unconventional in terms of a 442 and we haven't really had the players to play it.

 

I think an outsider looking in would look at our squad and think we're made for 433. 

 

             Hutch

     Lee.        Bannan

 

is a perfect 3 man midfield. They ran the show in that Arsenal game. Even the likes of Abdi and Mcgugan could slot in easily. 

 

If we'd built around that, with Forestieri left of 3 attackers and the solid defensive trio of Westwood/Lees/Loovens, I feel we could have seriously challenged automatic promotion by now.

 

The foundation is there imo. If Carlos is to stay, I'd love to see him return to his "roots" and get the best out of our best players.

 

I think that Hooper was a 'gamble buy' and by that I don't mean for a second I don't rate the lad!

 

But simply we were ticking over and as you quite rightly say we're just looking for that final piece. The mobile scoring target man. 

I think that Carlos and the back room team must have said to the chairman "were not far away here. One player and we might do it at the first attempt of trying!" 

 

They checked out who was available,  saw Hooper, who does have a very good goals record and took a punt. Ok £3m is an expensive punt... but if it had panned out that way they'd hoped then it would have been a drop in the ocean compared to the Premier League money on offer.

 

I really like the lad...but he can't play the role for which I most definitely think they had in mind. 

 

Likewise as @gurujuan says Rhodes in many ways is this year's Hooper. Albeit a more expensive one...and with a better record.  

The punt striker to get us over the line.

 

This time we wanted a striker who could play in a 4-4-2 and Rhodes can do that!

 

But.....

 

 

....he's always played in a 4-4-2 in sides and for managers that weren't under the expectation that we have been to be promoted .  

The Huddersfield side he played in used proper wingers.

As did the Blackburn side.

They were very different 4-4-2 ' s to the one we play, which is more Burnley  style. ...tucked in, narrow, tight.  

 

I love both these lads. I like Hooper link play and late run behind. And Rhodes will score goals in an side which puts the ball into the box 10 times per half. Simply put though ,we don't. 

 

Dalian Atkinson was a far greater talent than Paul Williams..... but Williams became such a key part of our early 90's side because no at ter how good a player you are, no matter what your price tag....football isn't and never will be about that....its about if you fit the jigsaw....and that doesn't matter if you're a £15m Alan Shearer or a £50k Brian Deane. 

If you fit the pattern, fir the team, fit the system,.....,you will click and you will perform to the best of your potential. 

[gurujuan]

57 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

I think that Hooper was a 'gamble buy' and by that I don't mean for a second I don't rate the lad!

 

But simply we were ticking over and as you quite rightly say we're just looking for that final piece. The mobile scoring target man. 

I think that Carlos and the back room team must have said to the chairman "were not far away here. One player and we might do it at the first attempt of trying!" 

 

They checked out who was available,  saw Hooper, who does have a very good goals record and took a punt. Ok £3m is an expensive punt... but if it had panned out that way they'd hoped then it would have been a drop in the ocean compared to the Premier League money on offer.

 

I really like the lad...but he can't play the role for which I most definitely think they had in mind. 

 

Likewise as @gurujuan says Rhodes in many ways is this year's Hooper. Albeit a more expensive one...and with a better record.  

The punt striker to get us over the line.

 

This time we wanted a striker who could play in a 4-4-2 and Rhodes can do that!

 

But.....

 

 

....he's always played in a 4-4-2 in sides and for managers that weren't under the expectation that we have been to be promoted .  

The Huddersfield side he played in used proper wingers.

As did the Blackburn side.

They were very different 4-4-2 ' s to the one we play, which is more Burnley  style. ...tucked in, narrow, tight.  

 

I love both these lads. I like Hooper link play and late run behind. And Rhodes will score goals in an side which puts the ball into the box 10 times per half. Simply put though ,we don't. 

 

Dalian Atkinson was a far greater talent than Paul Williams..... but Williams became such a key part of our early 90's side because no at ter how good a player you are, no matter what your price tag....football isn't and never will be about that....its about if you fit the jigsaw....and that doesn't matter if you're a £15m Alan Shearer or a £50k Brian Deane. 

If you fit the pattern, fir the team, fit the system,.....,you will click and you will perform to the best of your potential. 

 

Something else Snooty, not only did Rhodes do it in a very different Blackburn/Huddersfield sides, but it was also a different time. Back then, most sides set up in a 4-4-2 system. Nowadays, sides rarely set up like that, and the games have become more cagey, often with two holding players in front of the back four. At the top level, but it's filtering down, sides are packed with quick athletic players, with the width predominantly supplied by the full backs. To combat our opponents extra numbers in midfield, our wide players tuck in to try and even up the numbers, thus starving our front pair of the service they need. If teams press high and squeeze the space, they can do so knowing we don't really have the pace to run in behind. People say that Rhodes is pretty quick, but I see no evidence of that. I can't remember a single occasion when he has run in behind and through on goal.

Edited May 19, 2017 by gurujuan

[Lord Snooty]

25 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

 

To combat our opponents extra numbers in midfield, our wide players tuck in to try and even up the numbers, thus starving our front pair of the service they need.

Season in a nutshell. ..

 

And when your do this for long enough you become reliant on someone pulling something extraordinary out of the bag in a tight game.

 

Which is fine if it happens regular. ... but when Ross Wallace is injured the chances of that happening decrease by about 50%!

[Lord Snooty]

10 hours ago, Think tank said:

His rigid 4-4-2 finally cost us in the long run, we have scraped by a lot because of the good players in the team. How many times have we been over-ran in midfield but nothing was ever done to remedy it? 

 

 

I do wonder how much fear might have played a part. 

After coming so close last season...

If we had just missed out on the play-offs last season....would we have gone for it again this season? All supposition of course.

 

But all year I haven't quite been able to decide if it was fear,  aping other succesful  teams who've gone up, or the transfers and the cost of thiose transfers which had dictated the thinking. Certainly if a Chairman spends £25m on players he will expect to see them on the pitch - Otherwise he's going to be asking why they have been signed.

 

 

[gurujuan]

Carlos is a renowned technician. He arrived at Hillsborough with a reputation as a coach who was a firm believer in the 4-3-3 system, or variations of that. All of that summers recruitment was geared towards playing that system. For such a disciple of the system, I often wondered what made him change his thinking. Initial performances were patchy, but not bad, and we've certainly had worse spells playing 4-4-2. Hardly unexpected when you consider the amount of new players who had arrived that summer, many of them late in the day. Also, during that period, or for most of it, there was no Forestieri.

It was odd that, having geared up for a season of 4-3-3 (4-2-3-1) we would change to another system so early in the campaign. To be fair, the new system brought about a slight improvement in results, though of course, they may well have happened anyway, following the arrival of Forestieri, and players bedding in. On the whole, reaching the play off final in that first year, was vindication that the switch in systems had paid off. There were however, already signs of the limitations of that system, or perhaps more importantly, the players charged with carrying it out. Carlos, being the tactician he is, tweaked the system to try and compensate for the midfield that was often overrun, especially by clubs  who had followed the trend of playing the extra man in there. As has been mentioned above, this tactic seems to have hampered our ability to get forward and create, thus starving our more traditional front pairing of the service they have probably been used to at previous clubs. We continued with the system, and it's compromises, into the 2017 campaign, without really addressing the flaws in the squad, if we wanted to play that way. Through a combination of, having better players, and the tactical nous of the coach, we can be said to have been fairly successful, again reaching the play offs. However, with more and more sides at this level emulating the sides in the Premier, playing with a defensive shield and just the one up top, we have found it increasingly difficult to break teams down It's also not without cost, as any entertainment value has completely disappeared. We have become one of the most boring teams to watch, and that certainly wasn't in the script. Indeed, entertainment was one of Mr Chansiri's stated aims.

Personally, I think we are at a crossroads now, I don't believe we can continue with the hybrid system. We either have to revert back to a 4-3-3 system, or interpret the 4-4-2 in the way Brighton have. That would necessitate bringing in a lot of new players, something that probably isn't realistic, given the FFP rules and the timing. It's tricky, but maybe Carlos is working on another plan to tweak things again, but in a more positive way. Let's hope so

Edited May 19, 2017 by gurujuan

[Lord Snooty]

 

 

24 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

Carlos is a renowned technician. He arrived at Hillsborough with a reputation as a coach who was a firm believer in the 4-3-3 system, or variations of that. All of that summers recruitment was geared towards playing that system. For such a disciple of the system, I often wondered what made him change his thinking. Initial performances were patchy, but not bad, and we've certainly had worse spells playing 4-4-2. Hardly unexpected when you consider the amount of new players who had arrived that summer, many of them late in the day. Also, during that period, or for most of it, there was no Forestieri.

 

It was odd that, having geared up for a season of 4-3-3 (4-2-3-1) we would change to another system so early in the campaign. To be fair, the new system brought about a slight improvement in results, though of course, they may well have happened anyway, following the arrival of Forestieri, and players bedding in. On the whole, reaching the play off final in that first year, was vindication that the switch in systems had paid off.

 

There were however, already signs of the limitations of that system, or perhaps more importantly, the players charged with carrying it out. Carlos, being the tactician he is, tweaked the system to try and compensate for the midfield that was often overrun, especially by clubs  who had followed the trend of playing the extra man in there. As has been mentioned above, this tactic seems to have hampered our ability to get forward and create, thus starving our more traditional front pairing of the service they have probably been used to at previous clubs.

 

We continued with the system, and it's compromises, into the 2017 campaign, without really addressing the flaws in the squad, if we wanted to play that way. Through a combination of, having better players, and the tactical nous of the coach, we can be said to have been fairly successful, again reaching the play offs. However, with more and more sides at this level emulating the sides in the Premier, playing with a defensive shield and just the one up top, we have found it increasingly difficult to break teams down It's also not without cost, as any entertainment value has completely disappeared. We have become one of the most boring teams to watch, and that certainly wasn't in the script. Indeed, entertainment was one of Mr Chansiri's stated aims.

 

Personally, I think we are at a crossroads now, I don't believe we can continue with the hybrid system. We either have to revert back to a 4-3-3 system, or interpret the 4-4-2 in the way Brighton have. That would necessitate bringing in a lot of new players, something that probably isn't realistic, given the FFP rules and the timing. It's tricky, but maybe Carlos is working on another plan to tweak things again, but in a more positive way. Let's hope so

 

And here for me is the crux of the issue . To play a pairing of any of our seven strikers (which we will surely continue to do. You don't spend £15m on a collection of forwards and not pick them)  then the midfield two in the middle are vital and simply put it would surely mean the end end for one or more of our main trio.  It is always the more long standing memebers of  squad that are cut adrift when change is needed. To offload recent purchases is very rare and I can't see happening. 

 

It really is an impasse.

As some have said we have worked our selves into a corner through our more recent transfers dealings.

The only way possibly to get the best out of this group now is possible to go to a 3-5-2 as @SBOwl and @shezzas left peg have suggested.

it might be the rescue mission. And it would require less signings to complete such a jigsaw than rehashing the whole side to try and do the same again but with improved results.

 

The thing is....I cannot see Carlos going the whole hog and doing that.  Despite my hopes...I think he may largely do the same thing again under the hypothesis that our year on year building and getting a bit better every season will continue. 

I ask myself if i am being overly harsh, and whether this group might be able to go one step further next season. But in my heart I'm not sure they can as things stand.

 

A new manager might mix things up.  But for me...I always have a slight worry that they will want to come in and tear the whole thing up, put their own stamp on it and the transfer merry go-round gets into full swing.  Then once more we beging the process of players having to settle in, get used to the city, the club, the plans etc etc .

 

PS- Did we ever get to the bottom of who is actually in charge of recruitment?

[SBOwl]

45 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

 

 

And here for me is the crux of the issue . To play a pairing of any of our seven strikers (which we will surely continue to do. You don't spend £15m on a collection of forwards and not pick them)  then the midfield two in the middle are vital and simply put it would surely mean the end end for one or more of our main trio.  It is always the more long standing memebers of  squad that are cut adrift when change is needed. To offload recent purchases is very rare and I can't see happening. 

 

It really is an impasse.

As some have said we have worked our selves into a corner through our more recent transfers dealings.

The only way possibly to get the best out of this group now is possible to go to a 3-5-2 as @SBOwl and @shezzas left peg have suggested.

it might be the rescue mission. And it would require less signings to complete such a jigsaw than rehashing the whole side to try and do the same again but with improved results.

 

The thing is....I cannot see Carlos going the whole hog and doing that.  Despite my hopes...I think he may largely do the same thing again under the hypothesis that our year on year building and getting a bit better every season will continue. 

I ask myself if i am being overly harsh, and whether this group might be able to go one step further next season. But in my heart I'm not sure they can as things stand.

 

A new manager might mix things up.  But for me...I always have a slight worry that they will want to come in and tear the whole thing up, put their own stamp on it and the transfer merry go-round gets into full swing.  Then once more we beging the process of players having to settle in, get used to the city, the club, the plans etc etc .

 

PS- Did we ever get to the bottom of who is actually in charge of recruitment?

 

Excellent summary. 

 

 

[gurujuan]

I don't think I could take another season like this Not so much the results, but the dull football used to achieve those results By now, after two years at the helm, we should have our own way of playing, with of course the flexibility to tweak things, depending on the demands. For that reason, I can't see us doing an about turn, and it will be minor changes and perhaps a reshuffling of personnel I'm sure we will add another centre back, one is needed, whatever system we play. For those who want a quick winger, that might not happen because of the role envisaged for our wide men. Maybe we could recruit one for bench duties. In fact, it's hard to see where we can add some much needed pace, given the way we set up. All our strikers, bar Joao, are a bit one paced but I really can't see us adding another one to the roster. The only place we could inject some pace into the side would be through the full back positions, and with 3 of the 4 recently signed, is that really an option

[Lord Snooty]

6 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

. In fact, it's hard to see where we can add some much needed pace, given the way we set up. All our strikers, bar Joao, are a bit one paced but I really can't see us adding another one to the roster.

 

For all the signings we have made I still don't think we have the rangy mobile striker that would have been the final piece of last season team.

 

We're surley not going to sign any more now, so it's down to Carlo or whoever comes in if he does  leave, to find the best way to get the best out of those strikers.

Sadly that will have to mean huge surgery in midfield for the right balance. 

 

I would be sad to see some of those players go in a rebuild because to an extent they would be being made the scapegoats when in reality we got our attacking transfers (if you'll pardon the pun) wide of the target.

 

 

[gurujuan]

51 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

For all the signings we have made I still don't think we have the rangy mobile striker that would have been the final piece of last season team.

 

We're surley not going to sign any more now, so it's down to Carlo or whoever comes in if he does  leave, to find the best way to get the best out of those strikers.

Sadly that will have to mean huge surgery in midfield for the right balance. 

 

I would be sad to see some of those players go in a rebuild because to an extent they would be being made the scapegoats when in reality we got our attacking transfers (if you'll pardon the pun) wide of the target.

 

 

 

Rhodes and Winnall were pointless signings, and had that money been spent on the type of striker we needed, we might not have been having this discussion.

[Lord Snooty]

8 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

 

Rhodes and Winnall were pointless signings, and had that money been spent on the type of striker we needed, we might not have been having this discussion.

 

Well with the deal all but done we now have to find a way of getting the very best out of Rhodes because he is undoubtedly a superb goalscorer at this level. But as we knew before his arrival needs regular service. 

How we go about getting him to his devastating best remains to be seen.

 

The Winnall one is odd.  I can see that in the bigger scheme of things £500,000 is no real gamble. But the timing seemed odd.

I think it's too far fetched that we signed him to try and panic Middlesborough into letting us have Rhodes ,though that has certainly been suggested by one or two.

 

I do wonder if there was a possible outgoing transfer on the go that we didn't know about and that Winnall was brought in as a pre emptive replacment and then the leaving player deal fell through....

 

[gurujuan]

I think rebuilding the side to try and get the best out of Rhodes, would be a huge mistake and would probably be a futile exercise His goalscoring exploits previously didn't really lead to any noticeable success for either Blackburn or Huddersfield In fact, only at Boro, where he was used as a bit part player, did his goals have any bearing on the success of the team. If we could afford to take that approach, that's the way I'd play it, and concentrate on building a side that functions as a unit. Encouragingly, for me anyway, there are some signs that this is the approach that Carlos might be taking. We can't afford to turn this into the Jordan Rhodes show

Edited May 19, 2017 by gurujuan

[Dagmeister]

23 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

 

Rhodes and Winnall were pointless signings, and had that money been spent on the type of striker we needed, we might not have been having this discussion.

I'd have preferred to see us adopt an approach that would give either or both a real chance of performing to standards that we know they can. There's no guarantee that another type of striker would have done the business either given our ultra cautious default setting.

 

Looking forward I'm happy that we have them as assets but there will need to be a significant change in approach next season for either/both to flourish (quite apart from the entertainment standpoint). I expect to see some wheeler dealing in the summer though and whilst not saying I'd necessarily like it I wouldn't be surprised if their was strong interest in Winnall at a far higher figure than we paid.

 

The real key going forward though will be either a change in CC's approach or a change in head coach IMO.

[Lord Snooty]

4 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

I think rebuilding the side to try and get the best out of Rhodes, would be a huge mistake and would probably be a futile exercise His goalscoring exploits previously didn't really lead to any noticeable success for either Blackburn or Huddersfield In fact, only at Boro, where he was used as a bit part player, did his goals have any bearing on the success of the team. If we could afford to take that approach, that's the way I'd play it, and concentrate on building a side that functions as a unit. Encouragingly, for me anyway, there are some signs that this is the approach that Carlos might be taking. We can't afford to turn this into the Jordan Rhodes show

 

I know what you are saying about Blackburn and Huddersfield (and I would have liked a different type of)  Nevertheless for a record £10m outlay it's unlikley that they will sideline him and mark him on the balance sheet as an expensive mistake.

With FFP and the fees that Chansiri has already sanctioned I have a feeling that whoever is coach/manager will be charged with utilising the other players for just that purpose

 

 

[Dagmeister]

8 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

I think rebuilding the side to try and get the best out of Rhodes, would be a huge mistake and would probably be a futile exercise His goalscoring exploits previously didn't really lead to any noticeable success for either Blackburn or Huddersfield In fact, only at Boro, where he was used as a bit part player, did his goals have any bearing on the success of the team. If we could afford to take that approach, that's the way I'd play it, and concentrate on building a side that functions as a unit. Encouragingly, for me anyway, there are some signs that this is the approach that Carlos might be taking. We can't afford to turn this into the Jordan Rhodes show

We can't agreed. To be fair though his goals hugely contributed to Huddersfield's promotion and his exploits for them continued at the higher level. He is polarising opinions amongst our fans. My belief is that in a team with a reasonable positive intent he'll flourish. I hope it's us but our current approach simply must change.

[Holmowl]

@Lord Snooty

 

Loving the thread.

 

Why your strong opinion on needing to find a new formation.

 

What was wrong with the 442, done properly?

 

ie

 

2 CMs (Bannan with Jones then Lee)

2 wingers (Wallace and Reach)

2 proper strikers (any two from Hooper, Fletch, Rhodes)

 

It worked in three tough homes and three aways.

[Dagmeister]

7 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

@Lord Snooty

 

Loving the thread.

 

Why your strong opinion on needing to find a new formation.

 

What was wrong with the 442, done properly?

 

ie

 

2 CMs (Bannan with Jones then Lee)

2 wingers (Wallace and Reach)

2 proper strikers (any two from Hooper, Fletch, Rhodes)

 

It worked in three tough homes and three aways.

Good point. This is why I personally use the words 'different approach' . Positive rather than over cautious mindset.

[gurujuan]

51 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

@Lord Snooty

 

Loving the thread.

 

Why your strong opinion on needing to find a new formation.

 

What was wrong with the 442, done properly?

 

ie

 

2 CMs (Bannan with Jones then Lee)

2 wingers (Wallace and Reach)

2 proper strikers (any two from Hooper, Fletch, Rhodes)

 

It worked in three tough homes and three aways.

 

Well the obvious shortcoming is no pace, very pedestrian However, for the most part, we were able to grind out results. There is no disputing, that in spite of the shortcomings, we have done well to improve on last season's finish. Undoubtably it's been harder, and not just because of the parachute payments Sides like Reading, Fulham and Huddersfield have improved tactically, and have overtaken us in some respects. More may do so next season. I feel we are swimming against the tide a bit here, despite our sizeable transfer outlay.

[Pulcinella]

Wow!

 

Or should that be Wawaw!