So Then, Messi or CR7?

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

3 hours ago, Sham67 said:

Yes, but can he use his right foot?  Messi has always been the better of the two.  Probably the second best player the game has seen to date.

 

Who do you have above him?

 

Maradona?

 

I was too young to see him at his peak - in fact my earliest member of him is when he got sent home from the World Cup for doing drugs - but I've since watched plenty of him over the years.

 

In terms of natural ability, they're the only two in the discussion, I take it?

[Sham67]

1 hour ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

Who do you have above him?

 

Maradona?

 

I was too young to see him at his peak - in fact my earliest member of him is when he got sent home from the World Cup for doing drugs - but I've since watched plenty of him over the years.

 

In terms of natural ability, they're the only two in the discussion, I take it?

Don’t be silly.  Pele was without doubt the best player in my lifetime.  In fact I’d put Best, Cruyff, Platini and Zidane before Maradonna.  I might be biased though.

[BIG D]

Nah,

 

1 Messi

2 Maradonna

3 The rest

[scram]

Maradona/Messi

Pele

 

But at least Maradona didn't have to face packed defences like nowadays...

 

 

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

44 minutes ago, Sham67 said:

Don’t be silly.  Pele was without doubt the best player in my lifetime.  In fact I’d put Best, Cruyff, Platini and Zidane before Maradonna.  I might be biased though.

 

Fair enough.

 

Most of those are before my time. 

 

Zidane was incredible, though. 

[Django]

9 hours ago, Rumble Fish said:

Messi

 

Ronaldo starting to destroy his legacy in the last 12 months

This 

 

Gary Neville said similar the other week 

 

Interesting to see where he rocks up next. Rumoured to be going to Saudi for the mega money, but Messi winning the World Cup might make him think about staying in the big leagues to prove he’s not finished yet 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Django

[Whitechapel Owl]

The greatest player debate is frustrating because most of the time people end up arguing about who's had the best career, not their actual ability. It's a different question entirely and you can easily compare two players like Alan Shearer and James Milner in terms of one clearly being the better player and the other having a better career. 

Ability will always be subjective really, and that penalty shootout on Sunday doesn't change anything, Messi's ability doesn't change regardless of which way it went, but he's probably clinched the title of the greatest ever career. 

[Owl_For_a_Lifetime]

I'm not really a fan of comparing players from different era's. The pitches, boots & ball from yesteryear were in no way conducive to free flowing football that today's players get. There is an argument however that the fitness and tactical nous of opposition players is far greater now than what previous players had to deal with.

 

Then there's tackling... pre 1996 - 2000 players had a lot more to deal with in terms of outright hacking and sneaky behavior that would now be caught on camera.. Marco van Basten having to retire at 28 is a prime example of this..

 

I do think however that Maradona, Pele, Puskas, Di Stefano, Best, Duncan Edwards, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Eusebio, Gerd Muller & R9 etc would all have thrived if they were born in 1995. Similarly; Messi, CR7, Zidane & Mbappe would have done ok for themselves if born in 1940.

 

Best players of an era, arguments would say Di Stefano / Puskas.... Pele.... Maradona.... Zidane.... Messi....

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

1 hour ago, Whitechapel Owl said:

The greatest player debate is frustrating because most of the time people end up arguing about who's had the best career, not their actual ability. It's a different question entirely and you can easily compare two players like Alan Shearer and James Milner in terms of one clearly being the better player and the other having a better career. 

Ability will always be subjective really, and that penalty shootout on Sunday doesn't change anything, Messi's ability doesn't change regardless of which way it went, but he's probably clinched the title of the greatest ever career. 

 

I tend to look at it mostly in terms of ability, but longevity and having performed in the biggest games does make a difference, too.

 

In my lifetime, I reckon the best I've seen are:

 

1. Messi
2. Brazilian Ronaldo
3. Zidane
4. Cristiano Ronaldo
5. Ronaldinho

[Bannofan]

The 'Best Ever'  used to feature 4 names :

 

Pele 

Maradona 

Cruyff 

Beckenbauer 

 

Then along came Zidane & Original Ronaldo 

 

Then Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo 

 

The latter two smashed all domestic records and their longevity has way surpassed anything that came before them.

 

I suppose it's a fun debate based on preferences, and your most formative footballing years. Also with Messi & CR7 there has been years when one has done better than the other. I think now Messi has finally put some distance between them. 

 

For me, having missed the Pele, Cruyff and Beckenbauer eras..

 

Maradona 

Messi

Zidane

 

I would also chuck Platini in as my wildcard as he featured heavily in football daft years of 1980 onwards. 

 

 

[StudentOwl]

14 hours ago, Owl_For_a_Lifetime said:

I'm not really a fan of comparing players from different era's. The pitches, boots & ball from yesteryear were in no way conducive to free flowing football that today's players get. There is an argument however that the fitness and tactical nous of opposition players is far greater now than what previous players had to deal with.

 

Then there's tackling... pre 1996 - 2000 players had a lot more to deal with in terms of outright hacking and sneaky behavior that would now be caught on camera.. Marco van Basten having to retire at 28 is a prime example of this..

 

I do think however that Maradona, Pele, Puskas, Di Stefano, Best, Duncan Edwards, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Eusebio, Gerd Muller & R9 etc would all have thrived if they were born in 1995. Similarly; Messi, CR7, Zidane & Mbappe would have done ok for themselves if born in 1940.

 

Best players of an era, arguments would say Di Stefano / Puskas.... Pele.... Maradona.... Zidane.... Messi....

See, I think that's fun.

 

I look at pitches from the 80s/early 90s and the 'tackling' that was permitted and I'm like "oh yeah, there's no way Messi thrives in that environment. 

 

But then you look at how the professionalism and 'elitism' of the sport has developed over the last 30 years... no more going down the pub for four pints after a game any more, all players have a far higher baseline of fitness, tactical astuity and arguably coaching? And then I'm like "Well maybe Maradona doesn't thrive in the modern game".

 

Interesting thought experiment. 

[Rogers]

On 20/12/2022 at 18:52, Rumble Fish said:

hes 2 years older

Will Messi be retired in 2 years or playing in Argentina or the US? 

[SiJ]

1 hour ago, Rogers said:

Will Messi be retired in 2 years or playing in Argentina or the US? 

He said after the final that he wanted to stick around and play for Argentina going forward. 

 

Contact is up with PSG in 6-months time. 

 

A move to the States where he can take it relatively easy and then put all his efforts into perhaps retaining a Copa America or something like that? 

 

In saying that, he also strikes me as the sort of bloke who may one day just think he's had enough and call it a day. Have always felt he seems a bit more secure in his legacy than Ronaldo. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by SiJ

[BIG D]

21 hours ago, scram said:

Maradona/Messi

Pele

 

But at least Maradona didn't have to face packed defences like nowadays...

 

 

Did it end up in the net though?

 

 

 

 

[BIG D]

 

[Owl_For_a_Lifetime]

6 minutes ago, BIG D said:

 

Surely that was a joke? I could have understood if he said it in 2006 maybe....... Wow..

[StudentOwl]

1 hour ago, Owl_For_a_Lifetime said:

Surely that was a joke? I could have understood if he said it in 2006 maybe....... Wow..

Said it 2010 quite seriously

 

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

1 hour ago, BIG D said:

 

 

Better at what, though?

 

[SallyCinnamon]

On 19/12/2022 at 19:01, Kopparberg said:

Portugal won the Euro’s in 2016… you think, Ronaldo is THE MAN 

 

Messi goes and wins the Copa América then the World Cup. 
 

It’s a wrap I think. 
 

What amazes me is that Messi isn’t a Barcelona player… they really got themselves into that much of a mess they lost the best player ever. Barca did one of the biggest fails in football.  

Didn’t Ronaldo get injured 20 minutes into that final? He contributed little in the actual final, although he did help get them there.

Messi scored two and got a penalty. Had much more of an impact in the deciding game than Ronaldo did in 2016.

[SallyCinnamon]

Also can I say how ecstatic I was to see Messi lift the World Cup on Sunday. It’s a tiring debate. Without causing offence, if you think Ronaldo is better - I don’t think you fully appreciate football. Any football purist will say Messi every time.

 

But now he’s captained his side to the greatest trophy in the game, there can genuinely be no debate. It puts him on Maradona and Pele levels. Something Ronaldo has simply not achieved. 
 

The GOAT and what a fairytale ending.