Jos - no room for maneuver - no quick fix

[Ronnie Starling]

I think under the circumstances Jos is doing far better than we could have expected. He can only work with the players he has at his disposal. Areas of work were not dealt with such as recruiting quality in defence coupled with the frequency that big earners are injured. I got the impression that under Carvalhal there was a clique of players which has now been upset with the arrival of Jos.

[WindygrOWLer]

32 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

 

Football fans in a nutshell. 

 

Think you'll find THIS is football fans in a nutshell... 

[Think tank]

2 hours ago, owler66 said:

Pick a team pick a system then stick with it at the moment the players seem as confused as the fans 

 

That is his biggest fault in my opinion. There is no consistency to team selection. Someone has a good game and then they are out the next match. 

 

There is no chance for the strikers to get any kind of partnership going as they are rotated so much. Even FF having came back and proved his work ethic and played well was still going in and out of the team.  

 

The freezing out of Westwood is ridiculous, how we could do with him to steady the ship a bit at the back!

 

Penney was doing fantastically at left back and then was moved forward where he has toiled and subsequently been dropped. 

 

The constant chopping and changing makes it hard to allow the team to tune in to each other and develop their play.

[Lord Snooty]

32 minutes ago, Hughdowd said:

Sunderland and burton we shocking last season so there was only one place to worry about .. this season will be totally different... that’s what is worrying a lot of fans

 

This lot aren't giving me too much concern if I'm honest. 

 

 

[behindthegoal]

The team is in transition so you should expect inconsistency.

[Lord Snooty]

2 hours ago, Ronnie Starling said:

 I got the impression that under Carvalhal there was a clique of players which has now been upset with the arrival of Jos.

 

It's a tough one that Ronnie. It's been hinted at before.

Equally though those players are possibly among the higher earners too. So could be more financial.

Possibly a bit of both. 

 

It'll all come out in the wash. 

 

Actually. It probably won't!

[frastheowl]

4 hours ago, NorfolkNChance said:

It's using the tools in the right manner though surely? 

  

We continually play out from the back with defenders who don't like the ball to feet. When we do pass it we give it to Bannan who is either on the toes of our defenders or about 10 yards further up becuase nobody else will take responsibility for the ball. Bannan then either does some fancy turns and passes it back to the defender, who doesnt want it, or passes it long but we have no pace to run onto it. If the defenders can't pass to Bannan they hoof it either to the opposition or out of play. 

  

Teams, like Boro did are clocking on to this and they will press the defence which will lead to us either giving the ball away (like last night and Boro) or press Bannan like Leeds did so he becomes innefective. 

 

He has to settle on a formation and a system but mix up the style of play a bit. 3-5-2 was OK last year because Venancio was a ball carrier and could play a bit, Lees isn't that player, if he plays it's in the middle with Hector on the right. 

  

Reach isn't a number 10, he's a winger or a wing back. Penney isn't an attacking midfielder, he's a LB. 

  

If I was managing a team against us it would be quite simple, press the defence, isolate Bannan and get lots of crosses in becuase whilst Dawson is a great shot stopper aerially he has a lot of development to do. 

 

 

 

 

I agree with what you're saying...

 

BUT, if Luhukay has a philosophy he wants to instil within this football club, this squad...then surely he has to implement that?

 

Remember watching MNF a couple of months back, shortly after Emery had took over at Arsenal, and had implemented this passing from the back style. They said Cech, Mustafi, etc. couldn't play it. And Carragher said the same thing...why play a style that doesn't suit the players? And Neville totally disagreed with it. The manager (or Head Coach) HAS to believe in a way to play the game. If he spends all summer telling the players how he wants to play, and then half way through the season, scraps it and states something totally different, you're finished. The players don't believe in you...why would they? When the manager doesn't believe in himself?

 

Luhukay has been handed the task of sorting this mess out. Every single Wednesday fan, knows it's not a quick fix. It's a three year job...minimum. Made difficult because of the financial situation. Emery at Arsenal has the luxury of speeding the process up, by spending £50-100m in each window he's got. Luhukay's will have to do, using loans, free transfers and the odd modest outlay. 

 

Luhukay HAS to continue to instil a philosophy in this squad, and either allow the players to adapt to it by improving as individuals or, he systematically replaces them, when he's allowed to do so. The big opportunity will come at the end of this season, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some departures in January, with a couple of additions also likely. 

 

If Lees doesn't improve and adapt, we'll sell him for a decent amount. He's already brought in a defender who's very comfortable on the ball, in Hector. Why the lack of faith in him? He knows what he wants to achieve...he's just going to need time and patience from others, to achieve it. 

 

Finally...I remember Huddersfield coming to Hillsborough shortly after Wagner had taken over. They were struggling, in a relegation battle, and came to Hillsborough and tried to play out from the back with a line-up containing Martin Crainie, Mark Hudson and Dean Whitehead. They were hopeless. Continuously losing the ball in key areas. Did Wagner abandon his philosophy? No...he improved the players he had...Tommy Smith and Jonathan Hogg remained and became key players for them, and he replaced the ones who didn't/couldn't adapt, with players who could. And we all know how the following season ended. 

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by frastheowl

[Shetland Owl]

Remember when Carlos was playing his favourite players, even though they were in poor form. Everyone was crying out for a change. Jos has come in and made some tough decisions , no player is guaranteed a place. A settled team is always the best but this season we have many players performing well below the standard we want, Joao for instance looks a world beater on minute and rubbish the next.  We haven't a lot of options up front at present, Joao off form, Fletcher never scores and Dave!!!. 

 

May be next month we can get FF, Matias, Winnall fit enough to start playing, we look well short of creativity at present these three would help.

 

Come the start of next season we should see a brand new, fit side although i doubt we will be able to spend a lot of money so it may be freebies , i would sign Hector if we get a chance.

[gurujuan]

18 minutes ago, Shetland Owl said:

Remember when Carlos was playing his favourite players, even though they were in poor form. Everyone was crying out for a change. Jos has come in and made some tough decisions , no player is guaranteed a place. A settled team is always the best but this season we have many players performing well below the standard we want, Joao for instance looks a world beater on minute and rubbish the next.  We haven't a lot of options up front at present, Joao off form, Fletcher never scores and Dave!!!. 

 

May be next month we can get FF, Matias, Winnall fit enough to start playing, we look well short of creativity at present these three would help.

 

Come the start of next season we should see a brand new, fit side although i doubt we will be able to spend a lot of money so it may be freebies , i would sign Hector if we get a chance.

Yeah, not the most efficient strike force granted, but how many chances do our much vaunted midfield actually create? For all the back slapping dished out to Bannan and Reach, do they really carve out chances. They are the creative elements of our midfield, but you hardly ever see them create much in the oppositions area. Yes, both are capable of some stunning strikes from long range, but they create very little for the strikers to feed on

[Tarquin]

5 hours ago, NorfolkNChance said:

It's using the tools in the right manner though surely? 

 

We continually play out from the back with defenders who don't like the ball to feet. When we do pass it we give it to Bannan who is either on the toes of our defenders or about 10 yards further up becuase nobody else will take responsibility for the ball. Bannan then either does some fancy turns and passes it back to the defender, who doesnt want it, or passes it long but we have no pace to run onto it. If the defenders can't pass to Bannan they hoof it either to the opposition or out of play. 

 

Teams, like Boro did are clocking on to this and they will press the defence which will lead to us either giving the ball away (like last night and Boro) or press Bannan like Leeds did so he becomes innefective. 

 

He has to settle on a formation and a system but mix up the style of play a bit. 3-5-2 was OK last year because Venancio was a ball carrier and could play a bit, Lees isn't that player, if he plays it's in the middle with Hector on the right. 

 

Reach isn't a number 10, he's a winger or a wing back. Penney isn't an attacking midfielder, he's a LB. 

 

If I was managing a team against us it would be quite simple, press the defence, isolate Bannan and get lots of crosses in becuase whilst Dawson is a great shot stopper aerially he has a lot of development to do. 

 

 

 

 

Still think this is our main problem, the lack of pace up front . There are folk who say it shouldn`t matter and someone to hold it up is just as important but you dont become a threat with your back to goal just outside the centre circle. On the edge of the oppositions box is where you want the ball held up , pace over the top releases pressure at the back and gets the opposition defenders facing there own goal .

Who was it said "footy is a simple game spoiled by those who play it"       

[A E Neuman NYowl]

53 minutes ago, frastheowl said:

 

I agree with what you're saying...

 

BUT, if Luhukay has a philosophy he wants to instil within this football club, this squad...then surely he has to implement that?

 

Remember watching MNF a couple of months back, shortly after Emery had took over at Arsenal, and had implemented this passing from the back style. They said Cech, Mustafi, etc. couldn't play it. And Carragher said the same thing...why play a style that doesn't suit the players? And Neville totally disagreed with it. The manager (or Head Coach) HAS to believe in a way to play the game. If he spends all summer telling the players how he wants to play, and then half way through the season, scraps it and states something totally different, you're finished. The players don't believe in you...why would they? When the manager doesn't believe in himself?

 

Luhukay has been handed the task of sorting this mess out. Every single Wednesday fan, knows it's not a quick fix. It's a three year job...minimum. Made difficult because of the financial situation. Emery at Arsenal has the luxury of speeding the process up, by spending £50-100m in each window he's got. Luhukay's will have to do, using loans, free transfers and the odd modest outlay. 

 

Luhukay HAS to continue to instil a philosophy in this squad, and either allow the players to adapt to it by improving as individuals or, he systematically replaces them, when he's allowed to do so. The big opportunity will come at the end of this season, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some departures in January, with a couple of additions also likely. 

 

If Lees doesn't improve and adapt, we'll sell him for a decent amount. He's already brought in a defender who's very comfortable on the ball, in Hector. Why the lack of faith in him? He knows what he wants to achieve...he's just going to need time and patience from others, to achieve it. 

 

Finally...I remember Huddersfield coming to Hillsborough shortly after Wagner had taken over. They were struggling, in a relegation battle, and came to Hillsborough and tried to play out from the back with a line-up containing Martin Crainie, Mark Hudson and Dean Whitehead. They were hopeless. Continuously losing the ball in key areas. Did Wagner abandon his philosophy? No...he improved the players he had...Tommy Smith and Jonathan Hogg remained and became key players for them, and he replaced the ones who didn't/couldn't adapt, with players who could. And we all know how the following season ended. 

 

Great post, I had no expectations of us challenging for promotion this season, I thought and still do feel we will end up nearer the bottom than the top.

 

What I did expect to see due to the excellent job Jos did last season was a pattern of play or a system starting to develop. So far I haven't seen that. The players look lost and in my opinion we are playing worse than under Jos last season.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

Tactically. I think they should be able to play most systems to be honest. They're pros. 

 

I agree with you in regards playing a pretty settled side. I think it's good for the players.

Takes time to build partnerships and understanding which chopping and changing doesn't help, IMO.

 

That said, I do wonder how much of the changes are to do with the genuine concerns about players getting injured, especially considering our recent ability to turn players into crippled has-beens.  

 

You will find that the best teams with the best players can adapt to most systems - but still have a main system and core of a team that they stick to.

 

Other teams with less resources tend to play to a style that best suits the players they have and largely stick to it, certainly in terms of the players that are picked regularly or the formation they use, but often it is both.

 

We seem to change our formation and our personnel ad-hoc and it is clearly not helping. Sometimes this is due to injuries, certainly in an attacking sense, but defensively that has not been the case.   

[Guest Bulgaria]

Every single radio show, every single forum, after every transfer window, all I hear or read is " need more players, sign a few etc etc 

How's about managers doing what they are paid gargantuan amounts for and coaching the ones already at the club into becoming even better!!!!!!!

[Lord Snooty]

8 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

You will find that the best teams with the best players can adapt to most systems - but still have a main system and core of a team that they stick to.

 

Other teams with less resources tend to play to a style that best suits the players they have and largely stick to it, certainly in terms of the players that are picked regularly or the formation they use, but often it is both.

 

We seem to change our formation and our personnel ad-hoc and it is clearly not helping. Sometimes this is due to injuries, certainly in an attacking sense, but defensively that has not been the case.   

 

Personally I'd always try and keep the same back four wherever possible. I'm from that school of thought same as you. 

I think he believes flexibility might give us a better chance in some games.  Ultimately it's hard to tell as there is only ever one result at the end of a game. Last night it didn't work. 

There's been times when it has. It's not the way I'd do it. But I'm not a championship manager. 

 

I don't think it helps having the kids. Whilst it's great to see them out there representing the club there are going to be times when they're out of their depth or having a bad game. Or need taking out of the firing line.

Which I think perhaps might be why Penney was 'rested' yesterday. 

I wouldn't have dropped Lees personally. But I don't know what is going on behind the scenes.

 

 

[asteener1867]

1 hour ago, frastheowl said:

 

I agree with what you're saying...

 

BUT, if Luhukay has a philosophy he wants to instil within this football club, this squad...then surely he has to implement that?

 

Remember watching MNF a couple of months back, shortly after Emery had took over at Arsenal, and had implemented this passing from the back style. They said Cech, Mustafi, etc. couldn't play it. And Carragher said the same thing...why play a style that doesn't suit the players? And Neville totally disagreed with it. The manager (or Head Coach) HAS to believe in a way to play the game. If he spends all summer telling the players how he wants to play, and then half way through the season, scraps it and states something totally different, you're finished. The players don't believe in you...why would they? When the manager doesn't believe in himself?

 

Luhukay has been handed the task of sorting this mess out. Every single Wednesday fan, knows it's not a quick fix. It's a three year job...minimum. Made difficult because of the financial situation. Emery at Arsenal has the luxury of speeding the process up, by spending £50-100m in each window he's got. Luhukay's will have to do, using loans, free transfers and the odd modest outlay. 

 

Luhukay HAS to continue to instil a philosophy in this squad, and either allow the players to adapt to it by improving as individuals or, he systematically replaces them, when he's allowed to do so. The big opportunity will come at the end of this season, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some departures in January, with a couple of additions also likely. 

 

If Lees doesn't improve and adapt, we'll sell him for a decent amount. He's already brought in a defender who's very comfortable on the ball, in Hector. Why the lack of faith in him? He knows what he wants to achieve...he's just going to need time and patience from others, to achieve it. 

 

Finally...I remember Huddersfield coming to Hillsborough shortly after Wagner had taken over. They were struggling, in a relegation battle, and came to Hillsborough and tried to play out from the back with a line-up containing Martin Crainie, Mark Hudson and Dean Whitehead. They were hopeless. Continuously losing the ball in key areas. Did Wagner abandon his philosophy? No...he improved the players he had...Tommy Smith and Jonathan Hogg remained and became key players for them, and he replaced the ones who didn't/couldn't adapt, with players who could. And we all know how the following season ended. 

 

Thats a good post Fras, hard to disagree with it.

I honestly don't see any players actually improving though, albeit some are better than others, the system looks shaky.

The same players aren't playing regularly together enough to polish it, because the line up changes every week, sometimes injury enforced, sometimes not..It looked totally disjointed last night...Bannan poppin' up like a wackamole in every concievable position bar keeper...

I suppose if its enough to get us by this season, and next...Jos will have done a remarkable job really.

We really DO need to shift some dead wood though

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

Personally I'd always try and keep the same back four wherever possible. I'm from that school of thought same as you. 

I think he believes flexibility might give us a better chance in some games.  Ultimately it's hard to tell as there is only ever one result at the end of a game. Last night it didn't work. 

There's been times when it has. It's not the way I'd do it. But I'm not a championship manager. 

 

I don't think it helps having the kids. Whilst it's great to see them out there representing the club there are going to be times when they're out of their depth or having a bad game. Or need taking out of the firing line.

Which I think perhaps might be why Penney was 'rested' yesterday. 

I wouldn't have dropped Lees personally. But I don't know what is going on behind the scenes.

 

 

 

I agree with most of that, but the highlighted bits. It is not working most of the time if you have failed to keep a clean sheet in 14 games. Yes we have had some good results but that can only get you so far when the opposition - and your own attacking players - know that we probably have to score twice at least to get any kind of results. 

Some teams are less mindful of keeping things tight as they back themselves to outscore the opposition - that is certainly not the case with us.

 

When Jos came in he went back to basics and managed to stop the rot by keeping clean sheets before adapting better attacking play towards the end of the season. There is no sign of that now and with the recent injuries to the likes of Matias and Forestieri our attacking options have become more 1-dimensional again but with no stability at the other end. You may not be a Championship manager but from experience I know that the vast majority of Championship managers would not be changing defensive shape and personnel most games in a bid to fall on a working formula - they would iron out a specific approach in training and stick to it.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

1 hour ago, frastheowl said:

 

I agree with what you're saying...

 

BUT, if Luhukay has a philosophy he wants to instil within this football club, this squad...then surely he has to implement that?

 

Remember watching MNF a couple of months back, shortly after Emery had took over at Arsenal, and had implemented this passing from the back style. They said Cech, Mustafi, etc. couldn't play it. And Carragher said the same thing...why play a style that doesn't suit the players? And Neville totally disagreed with it. The manager (or Head Coach) HAS to believe in a way to play the game. If he spends all summer telling the players how he wants to play, and then half way through the season, scraps it and states something totally different, you're finished. The players don't believe in you...why would they? When the manager doesn't believe in himself?

 

Luhukay has been handed the task of sorting this mess out. Every single Wednesday fan, knows it's not a quick fix. It's a three year job...minimum. Made difficult because of the financial situation. Emery at Arsenal has the luxury of speeding the process up, by spending £50-100m in each window he's got. Luhukay's will have to do, using loans, free transfers and the odd modest outlay. 

 

Luhukay HAS to continue to instil a philosophy in this squad, and either allow the players to adapt to it by improving as individuals or, he systematically replaces them, when he's allowed to do so. The big opportunity will come at the end of this season, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some departures in January, with a couple of additions also likely. 

 

If Lees doesn't improve and adapt, we'll sell him for a decent amount. He's already brought in a defender who's very comfortable on the ball, in Hector. Why the lack of faith in him? He knows what he wants to achieve...he's just going to need time and patience from others, to achieve it. 

 

Finally...I remember Huddersfield coming to Hillsborough shortly after Wagner had taken over. They were struggling, in a relegation battle, and came to Hillsborough and tried to play out from the back with a line-up containing Martin Crainie, Mark Hudson and Dean Whitehead. They were hopeless. Continuously losing the ball in key areas. Did Wagner abandon his philosophy? No...he improved the players he had...Tommy Smith and Jonathan Hogg remained and became key players for them, and he replaced the ones who didn't/couldn't adapt, with players who could. And we all know how the following season ended. 

 

 

What is the philosophy he is trying to instill?

It's 5-3-2 1 game with Lees looking lost in that formation then it's 4-3-3 the next game with Lees not chosen despite this being what he is more suited - and it's not just dwelling on this week, it has happened all season. I doubt many if any teams in this division have used as many different combinations of players in defence as we have. 

 

He leaves takes Nuhiu off against West Brom and expects Joao to do a similar job holding the ball up and also brings a kid on in midfield against the most experienced midfield in the division. Against a typically robust Pulis defence he leaves Nuhiu on the bench and then plays him last night when more movement in behind would have been a better approach.

 

Jos did a decent job for me last season but a fair few of his decisions this season have cost us more points than he decisions have won us.

[Lord Snooty]

57 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

I agree with most of that, but the highlighted bits. It is not working most of the time if you have failed to keep a clean sheet in 14 games. Yes we have had some good results but that can only get you so far when the opposition - and your own attacking players - know that we probably have to score twice at least to get any kind of results. 

Some teams are less mindful of keeping things tight as they back themselves to outscore the opposition - that is certainly not the case with us.

 

When Jos came in he went back to basics and managed to stop the rot by keeping clean sheets before adapting better attacking play towards the end of the season. There is no sign of that now and with the recent injuries to the likes of Matias and Forestieri our attacking options have become more 1-dimensional again but with no stability at the other end. You may not be a Championship manager but from experience I know that the vast majority of Championship managers would not be changing defensive shape and personnel most games in a bid to fall on a working formula - they would iron out a specific approach in training and stick to it.

 

It hasn't worked. As I said the counter is we don't know what would have worked. 

I mean , if he'd kept Penney in after his nightmare. Lees after his huge and potentially morally demoralising gaffe and the much maligned Palmer we might well have kept that first clean sheet.

Equally, we might have been worse and lost 4-0 instead of 3-0.

 

It's frustrating. But we have to presume, that there is a reason to it. I don't think he'd have lasted as long in the game as he has with the record he has if he was just making it up as he went along.

 

I think it helped that he had players like Venancio and Hunt to call upon last season. And there are always the players who've been out the side desperate to do well when i new man comes in. 

14 games and no clean sheet. But again. How much of it is individuals falling asleep. The WBA goals. The Middlesborough goals. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

It hasn't worked. As I said the counter is we don't know what would have worked. 

I mean , if he'd kept Penney in after his nightmare. Lees after his huge and potentially morally demoralising gaffe and the much maligned Palmer we might well have kept that first clean sheet.

Equally, we might have been worse and lost 4-0 instead of 3-0.

 

It's frustrating. But we have to presume, that there is a reason to it. I don't think he'd have lasted as long in the game as he has with the record he has if he was just making it up as he went along.

 

I think it helped that he had players like Venancio and Hunt to call upon last season. And there are always the players who've been out the side desperate to do well when i new man comes in. 

14 games and no clean sheet. But again. How much of it is individuals falling asleep. The WBA goals. The Middlesborough goals. 

 

 

 

 

 

Spot on regarding Venancio and Hunt, they were ideal for the 3-5-2 system.

I'm not just referring to this week though, it's 4-3-3 one game, 3-5-2 the next, 3-4-3 in others, 4-5-1 at times. An ever changing back line with young players and and ever changing formation surely has less chance of keeping a clean sheet than settling on something for few games. 

 

The Boro result I agree was more down to mistakes than tactics although choosing to do nothing for so long at 2-0 down at home was baffling. Bringing on Joao in place of Nuhiu and Kirby in midfield contributed to West Brom's come back without a doubt.

[Lord Snooty]

34 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Spot on regarding Venancio and Hunt, they were ideal for the 3-5-2 system.

I'm not just referring to this week though, it's 4-3-3 one game, 3-5-2 the next, 3-4-3 in others, 4-5-1 at times. An ever changing back line with young players and and ever changing formation surely has less chance of keeping a clean sheet than settling on something for few games. 

 

I agree. As I said,  I'm quite old school in my thinking. Especially in terms of defensive units. 

I suppose his argument would be sometimes having to sacrifice a body at the back to get an extra man in midfield or upfront.

 

34 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

The Boro result I agree was more down to mistakes than tactics although choosing to do nothing for so long at 2-0 down at home was baffling. Bringing on Joao in place of Nuhiu and Kirby in midfield contributed to West Brom's come back without a doubt.

 

Agree whole heartedly.

Though I have to be honest, I have to hold my hands up... at the time (that is before it happened) when Joao came on as I thought his pace and willingness to run with the ball might help us finish them off on the counter. I thought it was a good move. As it was he had one of his invisible days and in hindsight it was  bad move. Though it had to happen for us to know it was a bad move. 

Joao comes on and bags a goal it's a master stroke. 

Swings and roundabouts really.