SWFC Loan Watch Returns! (part one)

[malek]

2 hours ago, kendoddsdadsdogsdead said:

Great stuff as always Ethel, keep the updates coming.

 

As regards Penney, out of all our promising younger players, he imho is head and shoulders above anyone else. Every time I have seen him play (about half a dozen), he looks a real class act. He has great awareness, vision, can deliver a great ball and has a great engine. I would promote him to left back in our first team, as I don't think he would look out of place. He is one who I think will 'make' it and make it big. I just hope it is for us.

 

As to the others, Clare is another I have seen who I think has a bit about him, and good to see him getting game time.

 

My slight concern is that it seems our talented youngsters are never going to get an opportunity in and around the first team, and in this regard, having developed them, we may well lose out in the future to teams who take them from us and play them.

 

Had to check if I wrote this post

 

I 100% agree with everything you posted. Well done

[torryowl]

3 hours ago, kendoddsdadsdogsdead said:

Great stuff as always Ethel, keep the updates coming.

 

As regards Penney, out of all our promising younger players, he imho is head and shoulders above anyone else. Every time I have seen him play (about half a dozen), he looks a real class act. He has great awareness, vision, can deliver a great ball and has a great engine. I would promote him to left back in our first team, as I don't think he would look out of place. He is one who I think will 'make' it and make it big. I just hope it is for us.

 

As to the others, Clare is another I have seen who I think has a bit about him, and good to see him getting game time.

 

My slight concern is that it seems our talented youngsters are never going to get an opportunity in and around the first team, and in this regard, having developed them, we may well lose out in the future to teams who take them from us and play them.

unless we hit  hard times then I think your correct in saying they'll never get the opportunity to get in the 1st team .... we are hoping to be in contention and to do that  carlos will play  the players he  trusts ,then if we do go up we'll probably sign better players which pushes them further down line ....it's an almost  impossible situation for them 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

Looking at some of our youngsters, I do genuinely feel for them. Opportunities are and will be limited, but should they ever get the chance, they have to seize it.

 

An example of someone who did is the lad Lookman. Played about 40 odd games for Charlton over a couple of years and commanded an 8 figure transfer fee to a Premiership club.

 

Great business for Charlton, and there is definitely something to be said for playing youngsters, to get them in the shop window if they are good enough. Their football will get better and any future sale will benefit the club.

 

The issue for me is what the club decide to do when these young players are coming to the end of their contracts. We have made terrific strides in terms of rejuvenating our academy, but all will be for nothing if these talented young players do not get a chance to play at league level. Other sides in this and the Premiership are not afraid to give the youngsters a chance, but our regime seems not to want to take that risk. Sometimes risk does pay off.

[Groundhopping Owl]

On 10/8/2017 at 01:21, pazowl55 said:

And his finishing was up there with Nuhiu's.

 

Had to have me wits about me when behind the goal when they were walming up.

It was only after he signed that they started bringing out the "WARNING, Flying Footballs" signs for the pre-match warm ups if I recall 

[Groundhopping Owl]

12 hours ago, Hirstyslegend said:

No it was quoted that we have the option to buy butters but they don't on winnie 

I do worry that despite there not being any formal arrangements in place, we may have seen the last of Winnall in a Wednesday shirt. If he does well this season at Derby and bangs them in under Rowett, he's unlikely to want to change environment and come back to work under a manager who saw him as surplus to requirements, he'll want to stay where he encounters success. If he doesn't pull up any trees then Carlos and the powers that be will probably continue to see him as surplus to requirements. I hope not as I'm convinced there's a good amount of talent in that lad and especially if Hooper were to leave we'd need him back here ready to play a big role.

[Costello 77]

7 hours ago, Ethel The Tree said:

 

Perhaps patience is no bad thing

Tottenham get credit for bringing young players on, but they use the loan system to their advantage too

 

Harry Kane (who I thought was a bit of a donkey in his youth ) had loan spells with four different clubs before breaking into their 1st team

He racked up most of his U19 caps whilst playing for Orient & Millwall - wonder if he was their highest earner at the time (eh, Doyen Sports?)

 

Similarly, (Donny lad) Danny Rose was a £1m teenage investment, but he had three loan spells in the Championship and spent a season at Sunderland before making his mark at Tottenham as a 23yr old

 

Our academy/development squad seem to be producing some promising players at long last

I'd like to see them develop further with us, receive guidance (as well as the 'going rate') and show a little loyalty in return

Unfortunately, it seems like players and their representatives view wealth as the first priority - so I expect we'll lose a few*

 

 

* although Joe Wildsmith recently signed a 5yr deal, so the terms we offer can't be all that bad

Wildsmith is absolutely ready from what I can see.

If he gets the backing from the defence and club captain I can see him taking Westwood's shirt.

[Winco owl 90]

5 hours ago, Groundhopping Owl said:

I do worry that despite there not being any formal arrangements in place, we may have seen the last of Winnall in a Wednesday shirt. If he does well this season at Derby and bangs them in under Rowett, he's unlikely to want to change environment and come back to work under a manager who saw him as surplus to requirements, he'll want to stay where he encounters success. If he doesn't pull up any trees then Carlos and the powers that be will probably continue to see him as surplus to requirements. I hope not as I'm convinced there's a good amount of talent in that lad and especially if Hooper were to leave we'd need him back here ready to play a big role.

He's a very good player and knows were the net is better than Jordan at the moment but we only bought him because it didn't look like we would get roades...so really was surplus to requirements as soon as he got here I'm afraid but I would say winnie is a better all round player from what I have seen of him

[torryowl]

10 hours ago, kendoddsdadsdogsdead said:

Looking at some of our youngsters, I do genuinely feel for them. Opportunities are and will be limited, but should they ever get the chance, they have to seize it.

 

An example of someone who did is the lad Lookman. Played about 40 odd games for Charlton over a couple of years and commanded an 8 figure transfer fee to a Premiership club.

 

Great business for Charlton, and there is definitely something to be said for playing youngsters, to get them in the shop window if they are good enough. Their football will get better and any future sale will benefit the club.

 

The issue for me is what the club decide to do when these young players are coming to the end of their contracts. We have made terrific strides in terms of rejuvenating our academy, but all will be for nothing if these talented young players do not get a chance to play at league level. Other sides in this and the Premiership are not afraid to give the youngsters a chance, but our regime seems not to want to take that risk. Sometimes risk does pay off.

clare plays centre midfield I believe who would you leave out to play him ?...........would penney , stobbs, thorniley  strengthen the side ?.......I don't know coz ive only seen them all once but the day I saw them the best player on the pitch was dielna and he was only playing at walking pace .

[Ethel The Tree]

The point I was trying to make earlier is ...

These young players aren't yet at the stage where they're challenging our established 1st team squad

If they were, then I have no doubt whatsoever that Carlos would be integrating them now

 

The days of giving early chances to homegrown teenagers are gone, apart from the odd cup tie

There are exceptions of course, but the current process favours loaning these youngsters out to gain experience in the lower leagues

 

It's not new either, our present squad includes players who've spent spells out on loan before making a mark ...

Hunt (6)  Bannan (4)  Jones (3)  Reach (4)

Some of them (and others) have needed to move on before making the breakthrough

 

As regards Clare, Penney, Stobbs, Thorniley etc who knows what level they'll be at in, say, three years from now

If they've managed to clock up between 50-100 senior loan appearances at League1, League2 and Championship clubs

 

As has been proven already, 23yr old isn't too late to break into a top flight side (or go on to win international honours)

... and if we had a few of those players already on the books then it's better than having to go out and buy them

[Etchesketch]

18 hours ago, kendoddsdadsdogsdead said:

Great stuff as always Ethel, keep the updates coming.

 

As regards Penney, out of all our promising younger players, he imho is head and shoulders above anyone else. Every time I have seen him play (about half a dozen), he looks a real class act. He has great awareness, vision, can deliver a great ball and has a great engine. I would promote him to left back in our first team, as I don't think he would look out of place. He is one who I think will 'make' it and make it big. I just hope it is for us.

 

As to the others, Clare is another I have seen who I think has a bit about him, and good to see him getting game time.

 

My slight concern is that it seems our talented youngsters are never going to get an opportunity in and around the first team, and in this regard, having developed them, we may well lose out in the future to teams who take them from us and play them.

 

2 hours ago, Ethel The Tree said:

The point I was trying to make earlier is ...

These young players aren't yet at the stage where they're challenging our established 1st team squad

If they were, then I have no doubt whatsoever that Carlos would be integrating them now

 

The days of giving early chances to homegrown teenagers are gone, apart from the odd cup tie

There are exceptions of course, but the current process favours loaning these youngsters out to gain experience in the lower leagues

 

It's not new either, our present squad includes players who've spent spells out on loan before making a mark ...

Hunt (6)  Bannan (4)  Jones (3)  Reach (

Some of them (and others) have needed to move on before making the breakthrough

 

As regards Clare, Penney, Stobbs, Thorniley etc who knows what level they'll be at in, say, three years from now

If they've managed to clock up between 50-100 senior loan appearances at League1, League2 and Championship clubs

 

As has been proven already, 23yr old isn't too late to break into a top flight side (or go on to win international honours)

... and if we had a few of those players already on the books then it's better than having to go out and buy them

I would be amazed if any of our players were still here having not made the breakthrough at first team level by 23.  Clubs that can tend to do that are the really big clubs.  Lingard was 23 when he made a breakthrough at Man Utd, Ryan Mason at Spurs the same-and that tends to be the exception.  Stobbs got another year contract on the summer but I think next summer is the crossroads for him.  He will be 21 then and I think will end up getting released if the club don't think he can break through into the first team.  It's not three and a half years since he made his debut and has made 1 sub appearance since. They won't keep giving contracts if there is no prospect of a breakthrough. Could be the making of him to find first team football somehwere.We would also have to bear in mind the younger players coming through behind Stobbs, Thorniley etc and they may be deemed better prospects.  Its's the harsh realities of making it I'm afraid.

[Ethel The Tree]

1 hour ago, Etchesketch said:

 

I would be amazed if any of our players were still here having not made the breakthrough at first team level by 23.  Clubs that can tend to do that are the really big clubs.  Lingard was 23 when he made a breakthrough at Man Utd, Ryan Mason at Spurs the same-and that tends to be the exception.  Stobbs got another year contract on the summer but I think next summer is the crossroads for him.  He will be 21 then and I think will end up getting released if the club don't think he can break through into the first team.  It's not three and a half years since he made his debut and has made 1 sub appearance since. They won't keep giving contracts if there is no prospect of a breakthrough. Could be the making of him to find first team football somehwere.We would also have to bear in mind the younger players coming through behind Stobbs, Thorniley etc and they may be deemed better prospects.  Its's the harsh realities of making it I'm afraid.

 

As I said above ...

Whether these players are still with us at 23 (without making the breakthrough) will depend on how well they've done out on loan

IF Jack Stobbs (for example) gives a good account of himself this season he may be offered a new deal knowing that the next club to take him on loan will help fund it

Younger players coming through may well prove to be better prospects - I assume we're hoping to develop a conveyor belt of talent after all

I'd hope it's our intention to keep hold of the best and receive some kind of fee for the rest

I'd also hope it's our intention to establish ourselves in the top flight before this current batch of youngsters reach the crossroads

... in which case, 23yr old isn't necessarily too late 

[Etchesketch]

27 minutes ago, Ethel The Tree said:

 

As I said above ...

Whether these players are still with us at 23 (without making the breakthrough) will depend on how well they've done out on loan

IF Jack Stobbs (for example) gives a good account of himself this season he may be offered a new deal knowing that the next club to take him on loan will help fund it

Younger players coming through may well prove to be better prospects - I assume we're hoping to develop a conveyor belt of talent after all

I'd hope it's our intention to keep hold of the best and receive some kind of fee for the rest

I'd also hope it's our intention to establish ourselves in the top flight before this current batch of youngsters reach the crossroads

... in which case, 23yr old isn't necessarily too late 

I'd be amazed if someone 23 made their debut at Wednesday having come through the ranks.  Bearing in mind their scholarships end at 18, they then sign a pro contract.  I can't see anyone then being kept on the books 4 or 5 years before featuring prominently for the first team.  It just doesn't happen.  Finances outside the Premier League dictate that someone wouldn't be on the wagebill that long regardless if any loan club payed towards it.  I'm trying to think of the oldest debutants or age when they first made an impression and 21 is about the oldest for us.  Cameron Dawson was 21 when he made his debut and in the past I can remember that Graham Hyde was nearly 21 when he first played.  You look at the young players in the last 10/12 years and the likes of Spurr/Beevers and even Palmer were still in their teens.  The ones that didn't make it like Modest and Lekaj were also.  Only keepers like Dawson,Jameson and O'Donnell had turned 20.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Etchesketch

[Ethel The Tree]

14 minutes ago, Etchesketch said:

I'd be amazed if someone 23 made their debut at Wednesday having come through the ranks.  Bearing in mind their scholarships end at 18, they then sign a pro contract.  I can't see anyone then being kept on the books 4 or 5 years before featuring prominently for the first team.  It just doesn't happen.  Finances outside the Premier League dictate that someone wouldn't be on the wagebill that long regardless if any loan club payed towards it.  I'm trying to think of the oldest debutants or age when they first made an impression and 21 is about the oldest for us.  Cameron Dawson was 21 when he made his debut and in the past I can remember that Graham Hyde was nearly 21 when he first played.  You look at the young players in the last 10/12 years and the likes of Spurr/Beevers and even Palmer were still in their teens.  The ones that didn't make it like Modest and Lekaj were also.  Only keepers like Dawson,Jameson and O'Donnell had turned 20.

 

Not debut - breakthrough as in competing regularly for a 1st team place

Perhaps you haven't read some of my earlier posts on this thread but I was trying to draw comparisons between our current batch of youngsters and players at other clubs who have now become established after time spent on loan in the lower divisions

 

I'm aware there are an even greater number of young players who follow this route and don't make - many seem to have passed through S6 at one stage or another! - but the process is ongoing, decisions will have to be made, and just because a 20yr old seems unlikely to get first team action at his parent club it doesn't mean he never will

 

... in my opinion 

[Etchesketch]

24 minutes ago, Ethel The Tree said:

 

Not debut - breakthrough as in competing regularly for a 1st team place

Perhaps you haven't read some of my earlier posts on this thread but I was trying to draw comparisons between our current batch of youngsters and players at other clubs who have now become established after time spent on loan in the lower divisions

 

I'm aware there are an even greater number of young players who follow this route and don't make - many seem to have passed through S6 at one stage or another! - but the process is ongoing, decisions will have to be made, and just because a 20yr old seems unlikely to get first team action at his parent club it doesn't mean he never will

 

... in my opinion 

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a Matt Penney/Connor Kirby etc even make a debut let alone a breakthrough but even the debut stage seems unlikely let alone the second stage(talking League Debut). Just how it is these days. This is not just the case with Wednesday but even lower League clubs in this region.  Would love to be more positive but its just how it seems to be these days with Academy products.  You just can't see a pathway.  It would take a certain type of manager to go through with it but the timescales on their jobs don't allow it.

[Ethel The Tree]

13 minutes ago, Etchesketch said:

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a Matt Penney/Connor Kirby etc even make a debut let alone a breakthrough but even the debut stage seems unlikely let alone the second stage(talking League Debut). Just how it is these days. This is not just the case with Wednesday but even lower League clubs in this region.  Would love to be more positive but its just how it seems to be these days with Academy products.  You just can't see a pathway.  It would take a certain type of manager to go through with it but the timescales on their jobs don't allow it.

 

Well ... let's hope for the best, eh?

I mean, all current players must've navigated their way through one academy system or another or else the professional footballer would be close to extinction

 

Acquiring readymade players aged 23+ is an expensive business

Far better if we could produce a few of our own

[malek]

1 hour ago, Etchesketch said:

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a Matt Penney/Connor Kirby etc even make a debut let alone a breakthrough but even the debut stage seems unlikely let alone the second stage(talking League Debut). Just how it is these days. This is not just the case with Wednesday but even lower League clubs in this region.  Would love to be more positive but its just how it seems to be these days with Academy products.  You just can't see a pathway.  It would take a certain type of manager to go through with it but the timescales on their jobs don't allow it.

 

Thing is that Penney already is better then likes of Pudil and Fox, and only reason why he is not in the first team squad right now is his age.

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

4 minutes ago, malek said:

 

Thing is that Penney already is better then likes of Pudil and Fox, and only reason why he is not in the first team squad right now is his age.

 

Spot on Malek. He has all that you need for a defender playing full back. He is quick, got fantastic delivery, can tackle and has a wand of a left foot. But as many gave posted on here in this thread and previously, he just will not get an opportunity. 

[malek]

3 minutes ago, kendoddsdadsdogsdead said:

 

Spot on Malek. He has all that you need for a defender playing full back. He is quick, got fantastic delivery, can tackle and has a wand of a left foot. But as many gave posted on here in this thread and previously, he just will not get an opportunity. 

 

Don't know how much videos of his great goals on youtube worked against him ?!

 

When we pulled him back to play left-back those understandably dried up a bit, and I feel that because of it people think how he stopped progressing, and that is so far from the truth as he is improving each season.

 

I watched him make his debut for Bradford, and was very impressed. Always wanted to get on the ball and make things happen. No sign of nerves at all.

 

His contract is up at the end of the season. Lets wait and see how that will play out.

[Olibeak]

 

In football, they always talk about taking one game at a time. In Sean Clare's case, it's more like case of taking one manager at a time!

Just been sent this link: http://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/sport/peter-taylor-gillingham-133557/

That's two down since he joined them on loan. Hopefully, the third will continue to give him game time.

It also  illustrates how luck can play a huge part in a young player's development (Clare was going well at Accy last season until injury cut short his season). 

On the wider issue of why we no longer develop enough genuine top-class players in this country, I highly recommend the posts by brilliant  veteran coach John Cartwright on keeptheball.com

I've twice had the pleasure of watching Cartwright (former technical director at Lilleshall, Arsenal first team coach, Crystal Palace academy director) coach young players -- one group of 7-8 year olds, and also one of 17-18 year olds. His blindingly common sense approach to producing "real" players with real technique, game intelligence and individual flair was a revelation and an absolute joy to watch. It's why he has been totally shunned by the FA dead-heads and by the old boys' network of "coaching-by-numbers" time-servers at many of our academies -- and why the England team has been overshadowed by the likes of Iceland, a country with a population slightly less than Bradford. 

His philosophy is explained in his book Football for the Brave, but try this for starters:

https://keeptheball.wordpress.com/2017/07/02/individualism-a-playing-priority/

[Ethel The Tree]

38 minutes ago, Olibeak said:

 

In football, they always talk about taking one game at a time. In Sean Clare's case, it's more like case of taking one manager at a time!

Just been sent this link: http://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/sport/peter-taylor-gillingham-133557/

That's two down since he joined them on loan. Hopefully, the third will continue to give him game time.

It also  illustrates how luck can play a huge part in a young player's development (Clare was going well at Accy last season until injury cut short his season). 

On the wider issue of why we no longer develop enough genuine top-class players in this country, I highly recommend the posts by brilliant  veteran coach John Cartwright on keeptheball.com

I've twice had the pleasure of watching Cartwright (former technical director at Lilleshall, Arsenal first team coach, Crystal Palace academy director) coach young players -- one group of 7-8 year olds, and also one of 17-18 year olds. His blindingly common sense approach to producing "real" players with real technique, game intelligence and individual flair was a revelation and an absolute joy to watch. It's why he has been totally shunned by the FA dead-heads and by the old boys' network of "coaching-by-numbers" time-servers at many of our academies -- and why the England team has been overshadowed by the likes of Iceland, a country with a population slightly less than Bradford. 

His philosophy is explained in his book Football for the Brave, but try this for starters:

https://keeptheball.wordpress.com/2017/07/02/individualism-a-playing-priority/

 

I'd struggle to read a whole book on the subject tbh, Olibeak

But I get what he's saying

The young England side might get results under Aidy Boothroyd - but I wouldn't pay to watch 'em

I wonder what he made of the snoozefest that was England's last two games under Southgate?