Jennz Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 2 hours ago, frastheowl said: The club are going to find themselves in this situation more and more if they continue to plough money & resources into the academy, but have no pathway for them to break through into the first team. Don't get me wrong, I fully endorse the club's commitment to the academy. The U18's & U23's have had good seasons for a couple of seasons now, and both teams have started off well again this season. I haven't watched any of them, but I'm pretty sure, we have some very good young footballers within our ranks at the minute. But, what good are young footballers who have absolutely no chance of breaking through into the first team? Now, I'm not saying any of these players are the minute are good enough to play in the first team, but where is even the remotest opportunity for them? Surely as a young kid, playing well, week in week out, it must be a tad demoralising seeing no pathway towards first team football. There's no role models, no one to admire. Nobody (aside from the goalkeepers) has broken through into the first team, whilst any of these lads have been at the club. It's encouraging that the odd one is getting loans to football league clubs, but take Jordan Thorniley for example...he's going to Accrington on loan. Has he any chance to break into the first team when he comes back next season? Or is he purely putting himself in the shop window for another League Two club to take him, at the end of his contract. Academies are expensive to run. Either invest in them and the pathways to get these players into the first team. Or sack the whole thing off. Absolutely no point in the strategy we have at present. Agree with all that except the very last bit, binning the whole thing doesn't make sense, what would make sense & what a lot of clubs do is get them to the stage where Hirst is at now then sell them, Blades have made lots of money doing this...the other thing you can do & what I'd do is put at least one of them on the first team bench, let them get a feel for it in dribs & drabs...it would soon become obvious if they can cut it or not...Hirst is ready for a spell on the subs bench in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frastheowl Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 2 hours ago, qantas said: Agree with all that except the very last bit, binning the whole thing doesn't make sense, what would make sense & what a lot of clubs do is get them to the stage where Hirst is at now then sell them, Blades have made lots of money doing this...the other thing you can do & what I'd do is put at least one of them on the first team bench, let them get a feel for it in dribs & drabs...it would soon become obvious if they can cut it or not...Hirst is ready for a spell on the subs bench in my opinion. The academy is a very expensive commodity. It takes a lot of money, time & resources...unless you're seeing regular yield...whether it be financial or first team players, then why waste the money? Scram has said it many times on here. And he knows the academy systems far better than most. You mention the United academy, and that is an academy model that we should aspire to. It's not simply a case of producing a young player and selling them. United have a pathway. They give their youngsters opportunities, and their policy, whether right or wrong, is to cash in early on them. Whilst they are still fresh and raw, they get rid. Teams buy potential rather than the finished article. So I stand by my point...either establish a pathway or stop ploughing money into a black hole. It's very nice to think we have a shiny academy with exciting youngsters, but if there's little chance of them yielding any return, why bother? Its all about kudos rather than actual real benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handworth52 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 10 hours ago, RUMBELOWS91 said: Clearly a fall out- I doubt the club's hierarchy want him there, and i would imagine he doesn't care for being in their presence much either. The bloke has played and scored for us in the FA Cup Final and won our only major trophy in the last 82 years- I doubt he's that arsed at missing a poxy dinner. quite agree, but he should be 1st on any invite list for this 150th ,so clearly what most us think is true that there was a big falling out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modboy Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Has United's academy developed many recently or are their best players being poached as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, frastheowl said: The club are going to find themselves in this situation more and more if they continue to plough money & resources into the academy, but have no pathway for them to break through into the first team. Don't get me wrong, I fully endorse the club's commitment to the academy. The U18's & U23's have had good seasons for a couple of seasons now, and both teams have started off well again this season. I haven't watched any of them, but I'm pretty sure, we have some very good young footballers within our ranks at the minute. But, what good are young footballers who have absolutely no chance of breaking through into the first team? Now, I'm not saying any of these players are the minute are good enough to play in the first team, but where is even the remotest opportunity for them? Surely as a young kid, playing well, week in week out, it must be a tad demoralising seeing no pathway towards first team football. There's no role models, no one to admire. Nobody (aside from the goalkeepers) has broken through into the first team, whilst any of these lads have been at the club. It's encouraging that the odd one is getting loans to football league clubs, but take Jordan Thorniley for example...he's going to Accrington on loan. Has he any chance to break into the first team when he comes back next season? Or is he purely putting himself in the shop window for another League Two club to take him, at the end of his contract. Academies are expensive to run. Either invest in them and the pathways to get these players into the first team. Or sack the whole thing off. Absolutely no point in the strategy we have at present. Cracking post that imo. Don't know whether anyone listened to this but if you have a spare hour and are interested in youth football have a listen. For me it was a real eye opener. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04ttzm0 Manchester's Cold War - battle of footballing youth Edited August 31, 2017 by Walt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etchesketch Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 7 hours ago, frastheowl said: The club are going to find themselves in this situation more and more if they continue to plough money & resources into the academy, but have no pathway for them to break through into the first team. Don't get me wrong, I fully endorse the club's commitment to the academy. The U18's & U23's have had good seasons for a couple of seasons now, and both teams have started off well again this season. I haven't watched any of them, but I'm pretty sure, we have some very good young footballers within our ranks at the minute. But, what good are young footballers who have absolutely no chance of breaking through into the first team? Now, I'm not saying any of these players are the minute are good enough to play in the first team, but where is even the remotest opportunity for them? Surely as a young kid, playing well, week in week out, it must be a tad demoralising seeing no pathway towards first team football. There's no role models, no one to admire. Nobody (aside from the goalkeepers) has broken through into the first team, whilst any of these lads have been at the club. It's encouraging that the odd one is getting loans to football league clubs, but take Jordan Thorniley for example...he's going to Accrington on loan. Has he any chance to break into the first team when he comes back next season? Or is he purely putting himself in the shop window for another League Two club to take him, at the end of his contract. Academies are expensive to run. Either invest in them and the pathways to get these players into the first team. Or sack the whole thing off. Absolutely no point in the strategy we have at present. As far as I know Thorniley's contract will be up in the summer. Do we decide on whether to give him a new one based just on what he does at Accrington as we won't probably have access to him? I'd prefer a half season loan for him and he comes back in January when we can see him in training or send him out on allowed short term loans to the Conference. Matt Penney last season still played some games for our U23s when on loan at Bradford but he was a couple of years younger at that stage and may have been a youth loan. Thorniley is nearly 21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 8 minutes ago, Etchesketch said: As far as I know Thorniley's contract will be up in the summer. Do we decide on whether to give him a new one based just on what he does at Accrington as we won't probably have access to him? I'd prefer a half season loan for him and he comes back in January when we can see him in training or send him out on allowed short term loans to the Conference. Matt Penney last season still played some games for our U23s when on loan at Bradford but he was a couple of years younger at that stage and may have been a youth loan. Thorniley is nearly 21. Will Accrington be playing all their games behind closed doors then?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etchesketch Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 1 minute ago, Ian said: Will Accrington be playing all their games behind closed doors then?? You know what I mean. We would need to see him at our training ground at close quarters plying and training with our players, a few U23 games etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Etchesketch said: You know what I mean. We would need to see him at our training ground at close quarters plying and training with our players, a few U23 games etc We've seen that last year..,,the step us is playing league football which is why he's gone on loan and why, given that Accrington very rarely seen out, we will be able to watch him. There will also be feedback from Accrington on everything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest We Shall Overcome Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 On 8/29/2017 at 18:54, nevthelodgemoorowl said: There's a surprise Sally talking garbage. You should have been with me last seasons LC at Cambridge, George still has a little way to go. At least George will get there,he will not under Carvalhal who does not believe in youth, and an inexperienced Chairman, "Who Hangs on his Every Word"who will wake up when its to late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassetts Allsorts Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 9 hours ago, frastheowl said: The club are going to find themselves in this situation more and more if they continue to plough money & resources into the academy, but have no pathway for them to break through into the first team. Don't get me wrong, I fully endorse the club's commitment to the academy. The U18's & U23's have had good seasons for a couple of seasons now, and both teams have started off well again this season. I haven't watched any of them, but I'm pretty sure, we have some very good young footballers within our ranks at the minute. But, what good are young footballers who have absolutely no chance of breaking through into the first team? Now, I'm not saying any of these players are the minute are good enough to play in the first team, but where is even the remotest opportunity for them? Surely as a young kid, playing well, week in week out, it must be a tad demoralising seeing no pathway towards first team football. There's no role models, no one to admire. Nobody (aside from the goalkeepers) has broken through into the first team, whilst any of these lads have been at the club. It's encouraging that the odd one is getting loans to football league clubs, but take Jordan Thorniley for example...he's going to Accrington on loan. Has he any chance to break into the first team when he comes back next season? Or is he purely putting himself in the shop window for another League Two club to take him, at the end of his contract. Academies are expensive to run. Either invest in them and the pathways to get these players into the first team. Or sack the whole thing off. Absolutely no point in the strategy we have at present. On the other hand, if we make £2 million off Hirst and re-invest it back into the academy/club then does it pay dividends? Probably not from one sale, due to the cost of developing and coaching each youth team player from an early age, but surely selling a few academy prospects every now and again (like Sheff U and Barnsley have done) has its benefits over having no academy at all, e.g. financing transfers for first-team players, providing jobs, supporting the local community, growing the clubs image and brand etc. Premiership teams will always circle like vultures around any youth player showing potential, and we can hold on to them for as long as possible, but the truth is the glitz and glamour of a Premiership club will turn heads and we'll be held to ransom until the end of his contract when a tribunal will decide how much he's worth. How do you combat this? Rush the development of the player and get him in the first-team football and hope he lives up to expectation (not going to happen with current number of strikers). Get him on a long-term deal. Become a Premiership club. For me the club are handling this in the only way they can and are fighting to tie him down on a long-term deal. If he wont sign then lets sell to the highest bidder and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoadABallacks Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 I think i'd be looking to leave if i saw big Dave getting on the bench ahead of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malek Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 It seems we invested fair bit of resurces in our academy and that we got some decent talent signed. Last couple of years results have been quite good while trying to play passing football and developing players. Those given chance in development squad proved quite capable of making a step up. Development squad did as well as could have been hoped for at their level, playing against some good sides, and some experienced first team players. Again, we have few players who proved to be too god for that level and ready for next step - first team football. And what then ? Players who did so well reaching all the targets put infront of them for years are getting path to the first team blocked. Management is refusing to help them go out on loan asking loaning club to pay 100% of their wages. Just imagine if George Hirst is on 3k here, and name me League One/Two club who can afford to pay that for largely untested 18 years old. And it is all down to stupid principle of a guy with 0 experience of football (or any other sport), while paying some back up players well over 20k a week. I'm sure Hirst will leave, and wouldn't be surprised if he is only the first of talented bunch that we will loose for very little or nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goonan8 Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 12 hours ago, theowlsman said: OP says he won't sign a new contract. I bet he does when we give him a better offer. Sorry for the confusion, meant to say won't sign offer currently on the table. I think the fact his dad probably has regrets that he didn't move to Man U when he had the chance, is adding weight to this stand off. Basically "don't make the mistake I made and hang around out of loyalty, as loyalty doesn't pay the morgage". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 1 hour ago, goonan8 said: Sorry for the confusion, meant to say won't sign offer currently on the table. I think the fact his dad probably has regrets that he didn't move to Man U when he had the chance, is adding weight to this stand off. Basically "don't make the mistake I made and hang around out of loyalty, as loyalty doesn't pay the morgage". Hirst didn't hang around out of loyalty, he hung around because he was under contract and the club rejected man united bid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minton Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 On 29/08/2017 at 21:46, TrickyTrev said: If it goes to a tribunal would we be able to insert a sell on clause though? In selling a youngster with real promise like Hirst, that's where the real money is. It's inserted by the tribunal and is often 35%-40% of profit made on the player. Again, why clubs avoid tribunals if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now