Guest Deleted member Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Why do people feel the need to comment and attempt to put people down? If they are not hurting anyone then why should be of concern to anyone else. First Tango and now these lads. Beyond me TBH. I agree with this - don't personally understand the problem with half a dozen lads wanting to help improve the atmosphere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swfc261279 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Hi all, Whilst reading it fully, I have avoided this topic because I believe it to be a private matter between the flag owner and the relevant safety people involved. It should have remained that way throughout, but unfortunately it has been posted publicly and created a bit of a bandwagon. As always with these things, there are two sides to every story. I'm not saying that some of the comments in this thread are outright lies – what I am saying is that it is very one-sided and a lot of facts are not out there and have either been misinterpreted, twisted or completely misrepresented. There is obviously a very aggrieved individual who is annoyed at his flag being taken away, which is understandable, but there are rightful reasons why that has happened, which I am sure most people who have been quick to jump on the bandwagon here don't understand. Crowd safety is a serious subject. You only have to look at past disasters to understand that and, let's face it, one of the worst happened right here at Hillsborough and we always have that spectre hanging over us, rightly or wrongly. The very nature of crowd safety is that it is done for the benefit of everybody, not just a group of people. If rules are in place around something then those rules have to be enforced, no matter how silly it may seem. John Rutherford has come into quite a bit of flak on this thread and I feel a lot of it is unjustified. John (and his team) is highly respected in the world of football stadium safety management and, at the end of the day, he (they) has a job to do. Some of that job may be unpopular or seemingly strange from an outsider looking in, but it is all done with the best of intentions for keeping Hillsborough a safe place to come and watch football. Ironically, considering the flak he has had, John wasn't even working the night that the flag was asked to be taken down (though he was around on the night in case he was needed). As I understand it, the main issue is not necessarily with the paint, as has been blown out of proportion here, but with the flag itself. The flag is not made from 'normal' flag material, I believe, and has been made out of cuttings from something like a marquee covering. The marquee covering itself might have, at one time, had a fire safety certificate – however a fire safety certificate only counts for the covering in its fully manufactured form, the certificate becomes invalid should it be cut/ripped/torn, etc, as the material becomes potentially compromised – as is the case on this occasion. I have to admit to not being an expert on this subject, but the relevant fire safety people have apparently stated that this is the case on this occasion. Additionally, there is apparently some paint on the material which could potentially be flammable – whilst we have the owner's word that it isn't (and granted have no reason to not believe that), we can't unfortunately just take someone's word for it when thousands of people's safety is concerned. The paint is just a secondary issue though, I believe, as the 'flag' itself is a potential risk. Here are some of the rules from the Sheffield Safety Advisory Group (covering all football grounds in Sheffield) regarding flags in the stadium: Sheffield Safety Advisory Group flags policy for designated football grounds in Sheffield The group drafted up the following policy relating to flags and banners wanting to make it as simple as possible. "All flags and banners must be approved and certified by the club." "Approval for a flag or banner that has not been previously certified by the club must be sought at least 24 hours prior to the fixture." "No sticks or poles will be allowed in the stadium." "Flags or banners must not be torn, damaged or frayed." "Flags must be displayed in accordance with the requirements of the club." "Flags must not carry any extreme or inflammatory wording or motifs." "A flame retardance certificate will be required." - I will also point out that on this occasion for this 'flag' no flame retardance certificate was provided for this flag so in order to test its fire resistance the club fire officer applied a lighted match to one of the banners and it immediately took light. In light of this we were unable to authorise these banners. The issue of the Scottish thing has been blown out of proportion (from a private conversation) also – at the end of the day, where the 'flag' is a potential risk and doesn't fully carry the correct certification it doesn't matter what has happened elsewhere. However, there are many reported incidents involving the 'Red Ultras' of Aberdeen and also with Dundee in similar circumstances – mainly with respect to smoke bombs and flares, which posed serious safety problems within their respective stadia and therefore those groups ended up disbanding on the back of it (some of which had flags and such fully banned because of potential risks). The 'flag' itself hasn't been withheld and mechanisms were put in place for it to be collected at reasonable times. Unfortunately, on the first occasion for collection an incident occurred for which John had to attend. With large crowds of people, certain things inevitably occasionally happen and John has to deal with that – as he had to on this occasion. I understand the people collecting couldn't wait any longer, but honestly, if they had been able to wait another ten minutes they would have had the flag back and most of the resulting fall out since wouldn't have had to happen. Again, I understand that after that the people refused to collect the flag from the control box and with John helping to watch over a crowd of thousands he isn't able to just drop everything and get the flag back. It's unfortunate that things have happened the way they have, but there are certain things that need to be done and they cannot just be dropped. John did indeed enclose a letter with the flag, which I have seen, and has also emailed the individual concerned. If he wishes to take it up with John he is welcome to do so by return email and I would suggest it would be courteous to do so privately rather than one-sidedly on a public forum. The main thing to remember is that John and his team are reasonable people who are just looking out for everybody's safety at the end of the day. It's all done for your benefit, whether you agree with it or not, and is all done with the best of intentions within the rules and framework permitted. Now, let's extend an olive branch and try to put some things right here... The concept of the 'Ultras' is not unwelcome. Anything that enhances the atmosphere and experience of everybody in the stadium is encouraged and we want to do what we can to help. Likewise, we are not against the use of flags within the stadium (as is evident with the numerous flags that are used within the stadium), as long as they are correctly certified and permission is gained to use them (we'll even help show you where to put them, etc). For example, John helped Wednesdayite source and certificate the crowd surfing banner (big flag). So, the 'flag' is welcomed to be used at Hillsborough again, as long as it can be fixed and correctly recertified. Alternatively, we are happy for other flags to be utilised instead (with permission and correct safety certification), John is also happy to help people, such as the Ultras, source such flags and certificates directly. We want the atmosphere to be great at Hillsborough and if you want flags to help you do that then we are more than happy to allow that and help you with that. There's no conspiracy here and there's a genuine desire to work together – if the Ultras, or anyone else, has any ideas to make things better then we are happy to listen and try to help make things happen. Supporters working for the benefit of supporters (and in turn the atmosphere and the team) is absolutely welcome. Feel free to contact us through enquiries@sheffieldwednesday.com to pass on such ideas if you wish. I trust this clarifies the situation on this occasion. Again, I'll not be commenting further regarding this particular matter. This picture was taken around 30 minutes after theother flag in question was taken away. This flag does not comply with any of the above - and it has been written on with flammable marker pen. The steward is happily leaning against the barrier a matter of inches away from this potential deathtrap. My point being - where is the consistency and where is the flipping common sense......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulva Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 The name or the idea? Both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latemodelchild Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Both. Ok. Each to their own I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest intercity0wl Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Hi all, . The issue of the Scottish thing has been blown out of proportion (from a private conversation) So did it happen or not, or was the information that was given (its does not matter to who it was given ) a waste of free minutes ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest intercity0wl Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Ok. Each to their own I suppose. If only everybody had that outlook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaxypuppet Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 This picture was taken around 30 minutes after theother flag in question was taken away. This flag does not comply with any of the above - and it has been written on with flammable marker pen. The steward is happily leaning against the barrier a matter of inches away from this potential deathtrap. My point being - where is the consistency and where is the flipping common sense......... I don't see any marker pen? And how do you know it doesn't comply with any of the above? Is it yours? Lastly (and this isn't just you) - I don't understand why people write 'flipping' instead of 'rumbleing' on here- we all know what the words supposed to be, so in my opinion just use the real word or choose another one typed correctly? (Anticipating the ironic replies of numpty or something) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest intercity0wl Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I don't see any marker pen? And how do you know it doesn't comply with any of the above? Is it yours? Lastly (and this isn't just you) - I don't understand why people write 'flipping' instead of 'rumbleing' on here- we all know what the words supposed to be, so in my opinion just use the real word or choose another one typed correctly? (Anticipating the ironic replies of numpty or something) Knowing the Author of the post i think he might just be able to do a bit better than numpty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaxypuppet Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I didn't actually write that - seems there is a swear filter on here! A little inconsistent in itself (ooh- the irony!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latemodelchild Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 There has to be a swear filter. There's some right foul mouthed fckers on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swfc261279 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I don't see any marker pen? Try the big black letters.... And how do you know it doesn't comply with any of the above? Because it's mine..... Is it yours? I refer the honourable gentleman to my earlier response...... Lastly (and this isn't just you) - I don't understand why people write 'flipping' instead of 'rumbleing' on here- we all know what the words supposed to be, so in my opinion just use the real word or choose another one typed correctly? Cos I'm a Numpty and wasn't aware that it wasn't "swear filtered" you edit......... (Anticipating the ironic replies of numpty or something) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
31Dec1966 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 What an absurd world we live in! Why do we (the public) put up with this nonsense. Why are flags singled out for this treatment, and how exactly are they going to catch fire? Spontaneous combustion? Why is material in a flag considered different to a large jacket? a pair of trousers? A pile of programmes? A toilet roll in the gents? How many lighters and boxes of matches must be in the ground...these are items specifically designed for, and ONLY for, setting things alight ! If a flag were to sponataneously combust exactly what would it set fire to? The steps are concrete, the stand metal, the seats are plastic but I defy anyone to set fire to one, and if you can, surely they must be ripped out forthwith as a fire hazard? Hang on a minute, I agree with all this malarkey after all, the seats must be removed and we can go back to standing up, so we can have a proper atmosphere back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Farrell Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 What about the dead scottish fan ? Are we saying he hasn't actually expired/kicked the bucket now ? Was it a made up story ? Was it a cover until the club could come up with a more plausable reason ? I'm confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miffed Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 We have to remember what we are dealing with here. A former chairman encouraging people to buy vuvuzelas and then the draconian stewards threatening to eject people who use them. The club that encouraged people to buy flags from the club shop only for stewards to break the sticks on entry. There clearly is no communication. How come other clubs encourage their supporters to bring flags with sticks, infact, how come other clubs can get away with actually providing the fans with such dangerous objects? How come they were allowed in Cardiff? What do the club expect? People to start a free for all and killing each other with flag sticks? Sometimes words escape me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swfc261279 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 What an absurd world we live in! Why do we (the public) put up with this nonsense. Why are flags singled out for this treatment, and how exactly are they going to catch fire? Spontaneous combustion? Why is material in a flag considered different to a large jacket? a pair of trousers? A pile of programmes? A toilet roll in the gents? How many lighters and boxes of matches must be in the ground...these are items specifically designed for, and ONLY for, setting things alight ! If a flag were to sponataneously combust exactly what would it set fire to? The steps are concrete, the stand metal, the seats are plastic but I defy anyone to set fire to one, and if you can, surely they must be ripped out forthwith as a fire hazard? Hang on a minute, I agree with all this malarkey after all, the seats must be removed and we can go back to standing up, so we can have a proper atmosphere back! Ground Regulations Rule 7 - I suppose flags are covered by "an item that might compromise public safety" Rule 13 - Stewards at the back of the kop are ignoring an activity that is "strictly forbidden" - thanks chaps! Rule 17.1 - I should be on my 500th lifetime ban by now :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plonk Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Sounds like the dead scottish fan was not intended for public consumption. It was after all, a "private conversation" and should not have been commented on. Thats right up there with the Bill Clinton defense of "I did not have sexual relations with that woman". Thing is DJ the club cant have it both ways. If a club employer says something in his role as club employer it cant then be covered up as a "private conversation" as he is surely acting on behalf of the club. Either he said it or he didnt. He should either back up his claims with some fact or apologise to lying to a supporter and club sponsor. His failure to do so has apparently cost the club money, as well as a lot of bad publicity. You know as well as I that the press occasionally monitor sites like this, so please remember how much more damaging this could be. Despite your attempts to put the dead scottish fan under the rug, its for Mr Rutherford to do the right thing surely. How bad would this club really look?. The safety officer of Wednesday (home of the Hillsboro disaster) making up stories about a fan dying in a football ground? Its time for Mr Rutherford to do the honourable thing and either apologise or confirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest intercity0wl Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Sounds like the dead scottish fan was not intended for public consumption. It was after all, a "private conversation" and should not have been commented on. Thats right up there with the Bill Clinton defense of "I did not have sexual relations with that woman". Thing is DJ the club cant have it both ways. If a club employer says something in his role as club employer it cant then be covered up as a "private conversation" as he is surely acting on behalf of the club. Either he said it or he didnt. He should either back up his claims with some fact or apologise to lying to a supporter and club sponsor. His failure to do so has apparently cost the club money, as well as a lot of bad publicity. You know as well as I that the press occasionally monitor sites like this, so please remember how much more damaging this could be. Despite your attempts to put the dead scottish fan under the rug, its for Mr Rutherford to do the right thing surely. How bad would this club really look?. The safety officer of Wednesday (home of the Hillsboro disaster) making up stories about a fan dying in a football ground? Its time for Mr Rutherford to do the honourable thing and either apologise or confirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wecanbegiants Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 "John Rutherford has come into quite a bit of flak on this thread and I feel a lot of it is unjustified" Agree with what the club are saying here - some of the flak directed towards John Rutherford by the fans is justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 03 owl Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 How do we wave Flags without a stick/pole? are there certified sticks/poles that flags can be flown on? I understand the aspect of most regulations but i'm sure the sticks/poles is more to do with a weapon and if so who states what a weapon is? i bet a lot of people carry car keys, newspapers and programme's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horny owl Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 theres no wonder wotsoever why away matches are so popular Correct, Hillsborough is a joke. Segregation is over the top compared to other grounds. The stewards are over the top. And we cant take flags in without certificates. Why are trampy Liverpool fans etc allowed flags with sticks at their grounds but we are not? Typical H&S sh!te from Sheffield Wednesday as usual, and they want us to come flooding back for home games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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