Man City Premier League Dominance

[SiJ]

1 minute ago, SallyCinnamon said:

By some factors. Think he’d have slotted in to Pep’s team or Klopp’s team with ease? Strong passer of the ball and could bring it out of defence?

 

Genuine questions, not fishing.

He's slotting in alongside Van Dijk, no question.

[SallyCinnamon]

1 minute ago, SiJ said:

You were ridiculing the idea he'd be a match for Mo Salah.

 

You've effectively dismissed all previous great teams when comparing them with the current PL top two. If you have given them credit, you've done so with the caveat that they were good for their time.

Which I have done consistently if you read my posts.

 

Sorry I don’t think Arsenal’s defence of 20 years ago would live with Salah and co. If we’re talking a head to head game, which you know, has been my point from the start. The game is on a different level now. And saying that is by no means disregarding the quality of some of the great teams of their time. 

[SiJ]

Saying the game is on a different level now is pretty much disregarding the quality of previous sides.

[SallyCinnamon]

2 minutes ago, SiJ said:

Saying the game is on a different level now is pretty much disregarding the quality of previous sides.

No it’s not. Fitness levels, tactics, speed, physicality - it’s constantly improving and the game is always evolving. Footballers are developing into better more disciplined athletes as time goes on.

 

To say the game at elite level is now played to a better standard is absolutely not disregarding the quality of some of the great Prem teams - who were the peak of their eras. 
 

 

[scram]

Just now, SallyCinnamon said:

No it’s not. Fitness levels, tactics, speed, physicality
 

 

 

Sol Campbell

 

Fitness - check+

 

Tactics - check

 

Speed - checck++

 

Physicality - check +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[SallyCinnamon]

Just now, scram said:

 

Sol Campbell

 

Fitness - check+

 

Tactics - check

 

Speed - checck++

 

Physicality - check +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So you don’t think the quality of football has improved in 20 years? 

[shandypants]

If I could step in here to try to offer all a way out? 
 

Context is everything here. Football in this era is very technical but also the control (in terms of officiating) is completely different. I believe that if Wenger’s invincibles were transported to today and the game against Liverpool or City was played by today’s rules, then the invincibles would lose; however, if we were to transport City or Liverpool back to 2003/4 to play the Invincibles then, I believe, City and Liverpool would lose because they wouldn’t be allowed to “manage” the game like the do. 
 

The whole landscape of officiating the game has change to how it was in 2003/4 and tactics and, to an extent, players are developed against how games are officiated. 

[scram]

2 minutes ago, SallyCinnamon said:

So you don’t think the quality of football has improved in 20 years? 

 

quality is a qualitative term

 

We can measure speed, intensity, jump height, acceleration, reaction times, endurance etc etc

 

But how do we define "quality"

 

The aesthetics of the game have improved in my very humble opinion - but that doesn't bely the instruments of how success is achieved

 

And i can't keep saying it because i'm out of vocabulary but if you continue to cherry pick the best of todays game but disallow the strengths of previous era's then your logic is flawed - i cannot put it another way

 

 

[scram]

3 minutes ago, shandypants said:

Context is everything here.

 

 

Yep 

 

Being saying it for some time now

[SiJ]

14 minutes ago, shandypants said:

If I could step in here to try to offer all a way out? 
 

Context is everything here. Football in this era is very technical but also the control (in terms of officiating) is completely different. I believe that if Wenger’s invincibles were transported to today and the game against Liverpool or City was played by today’s rules, then the invincibles would lose; however, if we were to transport City or Liverpool back to 2003/4 to play the Invincibles then, I believe, City and Liverpool would lose because they wouldn’t be allowed to “manage” the game like the do. 
 

The whole landscape of officiating the game has change to how it was in 2003/4 and tactics and, to an extent, players are developed against how games are officiated. 

Quite.

 

Most top sides played 4-4-2 as well, which is not really the done thing these days.

 

I also think the points thing can be slightly misleading. No denying that amassing over 90 points is highly impressive, but then one may question whether the rest of the league is all that. The gap is huge now between the very top PL teams and most of the rest of the division. City and Liverpool are also slightly helped by the fact that most of their rivals are a fair bit off the pace. No denying they are brilliant sides, but still.

[SiJ]

The worst Man U side for decades.

 

Arsenal and Spurs going through periods of transition.

 

Chelsea a good side, but not at the level of some of the previous title winning sides.

 

I think what is important to say is that many great players would be great in any era. I'm almost certain that Thierry Henry would be the best striker in the PL now as he was back in the 2000s.

[g-owls]

If only we could bring some players back from previous years.

 

Viera and Henry at their peak were two of the best I've seen in the Premier League. Neither would struggle with the modern game.

 

 

[SiJ]

3 minutes ago, g-owls said:

If only we could bring some players back from previous years.

 

Viera and Henry at their peak were two of the best I've seen in the Premier League. Neither would struggle with the modern game.

 

 

Can you imagine some modern day midfielders coming up against Viera ha.

 

All 6ft 4 of him smashing his way through.

[katie melua]

 

1 hour ago, g-owls said:

If only we could bring some players back from previous years.

 

Viera and Henry at their peak were two of the best I've seen in the Premier League. Neither would struggle with the modern game.

 

 

 

I was having a think about this as well when watching brief highlights of the CL final.

 

Salah wouldn't get a touch if he played against the AC Milan side of the 90s under Capello. Tassotti, Costacurta, Baresi and Maldini is arguably one of, if not, the greatest defence of all time. 

 

I remember their final against Johan Cryuffs Barcelona who were the red hot favourites. AC Milans side had many key players out either suspended or injured, they absolutely demolished Barcelona putting in the best performance in a final. Only closely matched by Barcelona outclassing Man United under Guardiola (who in fact was in that Barcelona side that lost in Athens that night). Obviously in my opinion of course. 

 

If that AC Milan side were playing today, they'd probably dominate European Football for a very long time. A superb team to watch 

[Geedee]

2 hours ago, katie melua said:

 

 

I was having a think about this as well when watching brief highlights of the CL final.

 

Salah wouldn't get a touch if he played against the AC Milan side of the 90s under Capello. Tassotti, Costacurta, Baresi and Maldini is arguably one of, if not, the greatest defence of all time. 

 

I remember their final against Johan Cryuffs Barcelona who were the red hot favourites. AC Milans side had many key players out either suspended or injured, they absolutely demolished Barcelona putting in the best performance in a final. Only closely matched by Barcelona outclassing Man United under Guardiola (who in fact was in that Barcelona side that lost in Athens that night). Obviously in my opinion of course. 

 

If that AC Milan side were playing today, they'd probably dominate European Football for a very long time. A superb team to watch 

It was a fantastic team.

 

As time goes by most things get better. Put any great team of the past into today's environment and they would compete here's a few

 

Man Utd late 1960's

Brazil 1970

Ajax 1970's

Liverpool 1980's

Barcelona 2010's

 

But they would only compete if they had the same up to date training, conditioning,  facilities and backroom staff that klopp and pep have.

 

They would also have to adapt to modern referring and var. Most would but some old style defenders would really struggle with this

 

 

 

 

[markg]

7 hours ago, SallyCinnamon said:

Urgh, I’m done here. Deliberately missing the point. Football is a team game and these two teams are the best their have been. Will repeat it again - the game is quicker, more technical and demanding than it was 20 years ago. 
 

 

If they played them as they are now then yes, they'd batter them. I think that Salah would destroy a 41 year Ashley Cole.

 

Do you not think that the players who were at the peak of their fitness then wouldn't be able to adapt to the game now? Why wouldn't they be able to?

[shandypants]

2 hours ago, markg said:

If they played them as they are now then yes, they'd batter them. I think that Salah would destroy a 41 year Ashley Cole.

 

Do you not think that the players who were at the peak of their fitness then wouldn't be able to adapt to the game now? Why wouldn't they be able to?

Ashley Cole is the best left back I have seen playing. He would walk into any current team in the Prem; arguably, any current team in the world. 
 

Intentionally or not, he was years ahead of his time in the way he played fullback. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by shandypants

[markg]

12 minutes ago, shandypants said:

Ashley Cole is the best left back I have seen playing. He would walk into any current team in the Prem; arguably, any current team in the world. 
 

Intentionally or not, he was years ahead of his time in the way he played fullback. 

Me too. Best left back i've ever seen.

 

The idea that he wouldn't be able to compete with the top players if he was playing today it's crazy. He was world class. 

[SiJ]

Ronaldo described Ashley Cole as his toughest ever opponent. 

 

If that's not an indication of how good a player Cole was then I don't know what is. 

 

Trent and Robertson are brilliant modern day fullbacks, but they rarely have to do much defending and can often be badly exposed when they do. Amount of times you will watch Trent in particular and see him switch off. 

 

 

[SallyCinnamon]

Don’t quite get where people think I’m saying individual players wouldn’t be able to compete.

 

I’m talking about what this City and Liverpool team have done over recent seasons. The pressing, goals, fitness levels, the intensity. That makes them, for me, the best two PL teams we’ve ever seen. 
 

The conversation isn’t about if past era players could adapt. They probably could. I’m just making the point that these two are probably the best we’ve seen in terms of the way they play the game and what they’re achieving.

 

I watched an interview with Neville and Carragher the other week, they said exactly the same. These two teams and the way they’ve pulled away from the competition (competition that has spent millions and millions by the way) is astonishing.