Wrong Tactics (All Season )

[Emerson Thome]

10 hours ago, Tewkesbury said:

Don't disagree with the calmness and class thing.

 

I'll put my cards on the table.

I like Moore. I like Gregory. I want to see us win.

 

Early in the season, I was one of DM's biggest supporters on here, explaining why he made the decisions he did when he was being slated for tinkering.

And I could explain them all.

Bar one.

Why he built a side around a player who didn't have the attributes needed for the role. Why he changed everyone in attack and midfield in the 4231 to make it work, except for the one player who he needed to change.

Then came Oxford. Gregory went off at half time at 1-0 down and Berahino came on. We were like a different team, space everywhere, overlaps for days. We lost 2-1 but the second half performance was the best we'd played all season. If the penalty had been given on Pato, I honestly think we'd have a completely different side about now.

Even now, I understand why he makes the subs he does, why he makes the changes he does.

 

He's actually a good manager, he identifies where he's weak and tries to improve, you can see the side evolving game after game.

 

But. In my eyes, his basic plan is fundamentally flawed. He's spent all season trying to make Gregory work. It's worked to an extent, and if Windass had been fit he'd have probably pulled it off. But instead of solving the problem at the root, he's tinkered round the edges, doubling down on his mistake.

 

The downsides if playing Gregory as main striker far outweigh the upsides.

 

We're still having exactly the same issues offensively and defensively that I identified in October, and if I can see them, then any manager worth his salt can too.

 

Look back to October, September. The ones criticising are making exactly the same arguments now as they were then.

 

Yes, we have 82 points, but we could have many, many more.

 

I like Tewkesbury's posts and what you say above is better than some of the rubbish on this thread ("If only we ATTACKED we would win every game", "All we need to do is hoof it clear and we would have won the league", "even if we get promoted I would sack Darren Moore", etc.), nothing wrong with having a different view if there's some kind of logic behind it.

 

But I'm surprised to be honest that you're doubling down on your Gregory criticism after last night. The second half against Oxford doesn't stick out as a masterclass in my memory, and what you say Gregory lacks - pace, running, getting in behind - I don't see any noticeable difference or improvement when we pick Paterson (even slower), Berahino (hot and cold), Kamberi (offside) or Sow (quick, but never in the right position).

 

Despite his age, I would say Gregory has more pace and better movement than any of these. We won at Wigan because Gregory chased down the defender, tackled him and picked out Paterson. Last night he beat his man and scored, then bagged another breaking from midfield. He seems like one of our most rounded forwards when you consider the gaping weaknesses most of the others have.

 

We still have a few weaknesses, but take Bannan out of the picture and I've have Gregory right up there with Luongo and Johnson as one of our best players this season.

[NorthernOwl]

9 hours ago, parajack said:

Funny,you say you cant talk for the entire fan base,and than you do it again!! thats my guess  LOL

 

Sad how you are so desperate for people to share your irrational dislike of Moore.

 

People support him get over it.

[Tewkesbury]

7 hours ago, Emerson Thome said:

 

I like Tewkesbury's posts and what you say above is better than some of the rubbish on this thread ("If only we ATTACKED we would win every game", "All we need to do is hoof it clear and we would have won the league", "even if we get promoted I would sack Darren Moore", etc.), nothing wrong with having a different view if there's some kind of logic behind it.

 

But I'm surprised to be honest that you're doubling down on your Gregory criticism after last night. The second half against Oxford doesn't stick out as a masterclass in my memory, and what you say Gregory lacks - pace, running, getting in behind - I don't see any noticeable difference or improvement when we pick Paterson (even slower), Berahino (hot and cold), Kamberi (offside) or Sow (quick, but never in the right position).

 

Despite his age, I would say Gregory has more pace and better movement than any of these. We won at Wigan because Gregory chased down the defender, tackled him and picked out Paterson. Last night he beat his man and scored, then bagged another breaking from midfield. He seems like one of our most rounded forwards when you consider the gaping weaknesses most of the others have.

 

We still have a few weaknesses, but take Bannan out of the picture and I've have Gregory right up there with Luongo and Johnson as one of our best players this season.

Right.

Finally caught the COVID for the first time after 2 years of avoiding it, so I have plenty of time but my head's all over the place, hence the long rambling posts the last couple of days. I know what I want to say, just can't get it down.

I just wrote 4 full paragraphs, just to read them back and find that they completely missed the point, so I'll start again and use a more structured approach to keep my head straight.

 

First, a disclaimer.

Lee Gregory would be on my team sheet every time. But mainly as an impact sub, where I think he'd be the best player in the league.

 

1. Off the ball.

2.. Oxford.

3.. Movement.

4. Wigan.

 

1. Off the ball.

There's one rule. If the ball isn't going into an area, neither is Gregory.

He will happily make runs, as long as that's where the ball is going. At no time will you will see him on a dummy run. He'll dart around the six yard box, but that's it.

When was you last saw him run to the sideline with a defender to give another striker space to run into?

When we have the ball in our half, he's always the one up front in the middle with the CBs. Why? It serves no purpose.

We'd be better served with someone faster there, or someone who will move them about. When he is there, instead of making sideways dummy runs to open up passing lanes, he always comes back into midfield to get the ball, which brings their defence forward and clogs midfield, making it harder for everyone. If he let someone else up there to run about and played in the hole behind, we'd be better off. Defenders can mark him loosely, as they know he can't turn them and he'll pass it back anyway, then they can just get back to the middle. Watch how close they mark Kamberi and Sow when they're the last man. They'll have one man trying to toe the ball away from them with another hugging them like a kid with a kitten. Because with them there's a threat that they'll turn and run.

 

2. Oxford.

While not exactly a masterclass, it was a proof of concept. Up to that half, 4231 had failed abysmally. When Berahino came on and started dragging defenders about, we started finding space and overlaps all over and dominated. Compared to now, it wasn't anything special, compared to the games before, it was great. We equalised, then got caught on the break while still protesting the push on Pato for a penalty.

Here's the thing. that was the only half of football we played in 4231 without Gregory leading. We tried every other attacker in every other position to try and make it work. The only one who didn't change was Gregory, but he was the only one who didn't fit the formation as it needs a selfless striker to make space for the others to run into, and If the ball isn't going into an area, neither is Gregory. So it failed.

 

3. Movement.

All four of the above are good off the ball and make intelligent runs to make space. They're all happy to run to the corner flag if it takes a defender away.

The other thing is threat.

You have no threat whatsoever of Gregory turning you or getting in behind and getting free. He gets 2-3 of these balls every game. They just chase him down and catch up after a couple of steps, or herd him to the corner flag.

Pato has the threat of knocking you over and getting free, it's happened a few times.

Kamberi can turn you and get free.

Sow has the pace to turn you and cause havoc. Teams are very respectful of Sow's pace.

Berahino has the tricks to get past you and get free.

Both Kamberi and Sow make some great runs, but are usually picked up late, leading to offside or not seen at all. This is mainly down to gelling and knowing each other's traits, given extended runs and this would improve as it did when Kamberi played more. Gregory was offside twice v Fleetwood and Bannan knows his runs like his own kids.

 

4. Wigan.

This is where my stamina gripe comes in.

Gregory is capable of putting in a great grafting performance. When he has to.

He usually plays on a cycle, like clockwork. 1 good game, 2-3 quiet ones.

Unless there's a new striker coming in with something to prove. Then he ups his game massively.

Wigan. Pato's first game as striker.

Sunderland. Kamberi's first game back as striker.

Plymouth. Sow's first start as a striker.

Cambridge. His first game back as striker.

 

This is the issue.

He can push extended periods of graft if he wants, but it's like he thinks 'job done' then goes back to half arsing it. 

He's the best striker over 15-20 minutes in this league by far. But then he switches off.

I get that he's 33. He shouldn't be able to graft for 90 minutes every game. But then if he can't, he shouldn't play 90 minutes every game.

And if you can only put a good 90 in every third game, why are we building a side around him?

 

There's not surprising that we have only won more than 2 on the bounce when he hasn't started.

We know how good he can be, it's just that he doesn't do it half as much as he should.

 

Can he now push out the next 4 games at 100%?

That is our season defining question.

[shezzas left peg]

20 hours ago, Watto said:

 

He's got a point , yes we won and on the form Fleetwood were on we should have won and won comfortably.

We make it hard for ourselves all the time , same against Crewe at home we should have had the game sewn up first 15 mins,

We should undoubtedly be taking more of the chances we create and we should be defending better especially at set plays.

The opening post doesn't deserve to be scorned at just because the site leader thinks it should.

We are almost on the play offs and that is a decent achievement but god we know how to make hard work of winning games.

 

It's the Wednesday way

[parajack]

3 hours ago, NorthernOwl said:

 

Sad how you are so desperate for people to share your irrational dislike of Moore.

 

People support him get over it.

I dont like DM preference for playing it out....thats it,perfectly rational,if you bother to look,i have praised Darren for his leadership,tactics & game management at Fleetwood..

My view is not a popular one on here,but if you look i dont change it on a whim,its niether 'sad' or 'happy' nor is it desperate....Its just a different opinion to yours....

YOU get over it....& note unlike you i dont claim to speak for anyone but myself..

If Darren takes us up,I will have a massive slice of humble pie to eat,but never the less i will be at S6 Sat with 2 of my Sons cheering him,and the team on......

Keep your perspective.....WAWAW

[parajack]

1 hour ago, Tewkesbury said:

Right.

Finally caught the COVID for the first time after 2 years of avoiding it, so I have plenty of time but my head's all over the place, hence the long rambling posts the last couple of days. I know what I want to say, just can't get it down.

I just wrote 4 full paragraphs, just to read them back and find that they completely missed the point, so I'll start again and use a more structured approach to keep my head straight.

 

First, a disclaimer.

Lee Gregory would be on my team sheet every time. But mainly as an impact sub, where I think he'd be the best player in the league.

 

1. Off the ball.

2.. Oxford.

3.. Movement.

4. Wigan.

 

1. Off the ball.

There's one rule. If the ball isn't going into an area, neither is Gregory.

He will happily make runs, as long as that's where the ball is going. At no time will you will see him on a dummy run. He'll dart around the six yard box, but that's it.

When was you last saw him run to the sideline with a defender to give another striker space to run into?

When we have the ball in our half, he's always the one up front in the middle with the CBs. Why? It serves no purpose.

We'd be better served with someone faster there, or someone who will move them about. When he is there, instead of making sideways dummy runs to open up passing lanes, he always comes back into midfield to get the ball, which brings their defence forward and clogs midfield, making it harder for everyone. If he let someone else up there to run about and played in the hole behind, we'd be better off. Defenders can mark him loosely, as they know he can't turn them and he'll pass it back anyway, then they can just get back to the middle. Watch how close they mark Kamberi and Sow when they're the last man. They'll have one man trying to toe the ball away from them with another hugging them like a kid with a kitten. Because with them there's a threat that they'll turn and run.

 

2. Oxford.

While not exactly a masterclass, it was a proof of concept. Up to that half, 4231 had failed abysmally. When Berahino came on and started dragging defenders about, we started finding space and overlaps all over and dominated. Compared to now, it wasn't anything special, compared to the games before, it was great. We equalised, then got caught on the break while still protesting the push on Pato for a penalty.

Here's the thing. that was the only half of football we played in 4231 without Gregory leading. We tried every other attacker in every other position to try and make it work. The only one who didn't change was Gregory, but he was the only one who didn't fit the formation as it needs a selfless striker to make space for the others to run into, and If the ball isn't going into an area, neither is Gregory. So it failed.

 

3. Movement.

All four of the above are good off the ball and make intelligent runs to make space. They're all happy to run to the corner flag if it takes a defender away.

The other thing is threat.

You have no threat whatsoever of Gregory turning you or getting in behind and getting free. He gets 2-3 of these balls every game. They just chase him down and catch up after a couple of steps, or herd him to the corner flag.

Pato has the threat of knocking you over and getting free, it's happened a few times.

Kamberi can turn you and get free.

Sow has the pace to turn you and cause havoc. Teams are very respectful of Sow's pace.

Berahino has the tricks to get past you and get free.

Both Kamberi and Sow make some great runs, but are usually picked up late, leading to offside or not seen at all. This is mainly down to gelling and knowing each other's traits, given extended runs and this would improve as it did when Kamberi played more. Gregory was offside twice v Fleetwood and Bannan knows his runs like his own kids.

 

4. Wigan.

This is where my stamina gripe comes in.

Gregory is capable of putting in a great grafting performance. When he has to.

He usually plays on a cycle, like clockwork. 1 good game, 2-3 quiet ones.

Unless there's a new striker coming in with something to prove. Then he ups his game massively.

Wigan. Pato's first game as striker.

Sunderland. Kamberi's first game back as striker.

Plymouth. Sow's first start as a striker.

Cambridge. His first game back as striker.

 

This is the issue.

He can push extended periods of graft if he wants, but it's like he thinks 'job done' then goes back to half arsing it. 

He's the best striker over 15-20 minutes in this league by far. But then he switches off.

I get that he's 33. He shouldn't be able to graft for 90 minutes every game. But then if he can't, he shouldn't play 90 minutes every game.

And if you can only put a good 90 in every third game, why are we building a side around him?

 

There's not surprising that we have only won more than 2 on the bounce when he hasn't started.

We know how good he can be, it's just that he doesn't do it half as much as he should.

 

Can he now push out the next 4 games at 100%?

That is our season defining question.

What breath of fresh air that post was.....interesting read subjective obviously in places,but a reasoned analysis that i suspect will not see the usual 'barrage' of ping-pong replys......well done mate

[Chris Apolon]

I don't get it

 

At the beginning of the season, many were predicting mid table, some even relegation. Many said we had a team of losers and substandard signings and DM would perform miracles to get us to play offs.

 

Well, we are one game away. Suddenly we have the best squad in the league and DM is at fault for not delivering more.

 

Fact is, the players have performed based on DM tactics and instructions and we sit, and could finish, 4th best in the league. With a points total that would have comfortably got us there in many seasons.

 

I'd have taken that at the beginning of the season and think Moore has done a great job and motivating the players to perform to a standard to sit us where we are.

[parajack]

12 hours ago, @owlstalk said:

Honestly though

Look back through this thread from the start and just look how much time and energy some people are using to try and put a downer on the season that we're getting promoted

It's quite the achievement

To sit there day after day typing as many moans and whinges in as humanly possible to try and turn people against a manager when he's smashing records, getting us promoted, coming back from behind to win games, has improved the younger players, has stopped many of the silly things we were doing last season and start of this, and who's currently managing the 7th best season SWFC have ever had in their history and just one (important) game from the playoffs on Saturday

And yet...

A very very small vocal minority is for some reason hell bent on converting you to the Darren Moore hate squad

 

I'll leave it up to you to decide if you want to join their gang 

But let's be honest - that gang doesn't look either very appealing OR very sane right now to me

 

 

Mate thats a very unfair charecterisation of people who happen(in the main) to have a different view to you.Q is do you want the forum to be an echo chamber of the majority view? Or do you want to see debate?....

Emotive words like hate serve no purpose what so ever,there are a couple of 'silly posts' every now and again,(easily recognisable for what they are eg: Moore out after 1 loss) In the main people are disagreeing on Football matters,tactics,etc etc & if reaching the play offs alone is good enough.

You decide,if you dont want any posts critiqing DM  say so.....

Than we will know where we are wont we?...

[NorthernOwl]

14 minutes ago, parajack said:

I dont like DM preference for playing it out....thats it,perfectly rational,if you bother to look,i have praised Darren for his leadership,tactics & game management at Fleetwood..

My view is not a popular one on here,but if you look i dont change it on a whim,its niether 'sad' or 'happy' nor is it desperate....Its just a different opinion to yours....

YOU get over it....& note unlike you i dont claim to speak for anyone but myself..

If Darren takes us up,I will have a massive slice of humble pie to eat,but never the less i will be at S6 Sat with 2 of my Sons cheering him,and the team on......

Keep your perspective.....WAWAW

 

Which was the whole point I initially made I.e. the vast majority on here are fully supportive of Moore.

 

Glad to see you finally admit it.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Chris Apolon said:

I don't get it

 

At the beginning of the season, many were predicting mid table, some even relegation. Many said we had a team of losers and substandard signings and DM would perform miracles to get us to play offs.

 

Well, we are one game away. Suddenly we have the best squad in the league and DM is at fault for not delivering more.

 

Fact is, the players have performed based on DM tactics and instructions and we sit, and could finish, 4th best in the league. With a points total that would have comfortably got us there in many seasons.

 

I'd have taken that at the beginning of the season and think Moore has done a great job and motivating the players to perform to a standard to sit us where we are.

That was in June though, before we made any signings, when all the signs pointed to DC being out of cash and the likes of Bannan going on TV and saying things weren’t great at the club. Naturally people thought we might end up with a poor squad, sell players and therefore expectations were low.

 

Have a look at late August with 10 points from the first 4 games, a strong squad of 2 players for every position and recruitment done to a good standard and early in the window. Expectations naturally shifted to automatic promotion and the players kept coming out saying that was the target.

 

We’ve fallen short. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, NorthernOwl said:

 

Which was the whole point I initially made I.e. the vast majority on here are fully supportive of Moore.

 

Glad to see you finally admit it.

It’s not the vast majority though it’s about 50/50. When we win a game one side are more vocal when we lose the other side are.

 

No idea why you always say it’s the vast majority, it must be because you want to marginalise people with a different opinion by making out as if they’re being unreasonable or irrational in thinking what they do.

[Tewkesbury]

1 minute ago, Chris Apolon said:

I don't get it

 

At the beginning of the season, many were predicting mid table, some even relegation. Many said we had a team of losers and substandard signings and DM would perform miracles to get us to play offs.

 

Well, we are one game away. Suddenly we have the best squad in the league and DM is at fault for not delivering more.

 

Fact is, the players have performed based on DM tactics and instructions and we sit, and could finish, 4th best in the league. With a points total that would have comfortably got us there in many seasons.

 

I'd have taken that at the beginning of the season and think Moore has done a great job and motivating the players to perform to a standard to sit us where we are.

Two points.

 

One. At the beginning of the season, we were expecting to play our u23 squad and everyone to jump ship. Then we kept most of the side and made some solid signings. Yes, some were unknown, but looking them up showed that they were well above league one average.

 

Two. Nobody actually realised how bad this league is outside the top few teams. And it is. COVID hit the lower teams hard. But we were beating the top teams and dropping points v the poor ones. We should have been romping this league, even the players and manager were saying so.

[parajack]

2 minutes ago, NorthernOwl said:

 

Which was the whole point I initially made I.e. the vast majority on here are fully supportive of Moore.

 

Glad to see you finally admit it.

Childish mate,people dont want to see this,its clear that at the current time there is significant support for DM including from myself....when i feel its warranted(ie Fleetwood).critiqing him on footballing matters doesnt change that.......

[NorthernOwl]

2 minutes ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

That was in June though, before we made any signings, when all the signs pointed to DC being out of cash and the likes of Bannan going on TV and saying things weren’t great at the club. Naturally people thought we might end up with a poor squad, sell players and therefore expectations were low.

 

Have a look at late August with 10 points from the first 4 games, a strong squad of 2 players for every position and recruitment done to a good standard and early in the window. Expectations naturally shifted to automatic promotion and the players kept coming out saying that was the target.

 

We’ve fallen short. 

 

Those first 4 games definitely raised expectations. Perhaps unrealistically so.

 

I think that just prior to the start of the season when all the signings had been made few anticipated a top 2 finish. But because we started well some people then thought we would walk the league.

 

I suspect if we had started more slowly, expectations of automatic promotion would never have materialised. 

[NorthernOwl]

4 minutes ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

It’s not the vast majority though it’s about 50/50. When we win a game one side are more vocal when we lose the other side are.

 

No idea why you always say it’s the vast majority, it must be because you want to marginalise people with a different opinion by making out as if they’re being unreasonable or irrational in thinking what they do.

 

It's because the most recent poll showed huge numbers in favour of Moore. Nothing to do with me trying to marginalise anyone.

[NorthernOwl]

5 minutes ago, parajack said:

Childish mate,people dont want to see this,its clear that at the current time there is significant support for DM including from myself....when i feel its warranted(ie Fleetwood).critiqing him on footballing matters doesnt change that.......

 

Childish? Do you even read you own posts...

[parajack]

10 hours ago, Emerson Thome said:

 

I like Tewkesbury's posts and what you say above is better than some of the rubbish on this thread ("If only we ATTACKED we would win every game", "All we need to do is hoof it clear and we would have won the league", "even if we get promoted I would sack Darren Moore", etc.), nothing wrong with having a different view if there's some kind of logic behind it.

 

But I'm surprised to be honest that you're doubling down on your Gregory criticism after last night. The second half against Oxford doesn't stick out as a masterclass in my memory, and what you say Gregory lacks - pace, running, getting in behind - I don't see any noticeable difference or improvement when we pick Paterson (even slower), Berahino (hot and cold), Kamberi (offside) or Sow (quick, but never in the right position).

 

Despite his age, I would say Gregory has more pace and better movement than any of these. We won at Wigan because Gregory chased down the defender, tackled him and picked out Paterson. Last night he beat his man and scored, then bagged another breaking from midfield. He seems like one of our most rounded forwards when you consider the gaping weaknesses most of the others have.

 

We still have a few weaknesses, but take Bannan out of the picture and I've have Gregory right up there with Luongo and Johnson as one of our best players this season.

Refreshing mate to see a good initial post with thinking behind the points made,and a similar debate in answer with a contrary view.....mutual respect for each others views but agreeing to differ.....If ONLY we could have more..

[parajack]

1 minute ago, NorthernOwl said:

 

It's because the most recent poll showed huge numbers in favour of Moore. Nothing to do with me trying to marginalise anyone.

Yes thats a fair point,but if we lose Sat & results didnt go our way,or if we made the play offs but didnt go up, how quickly would that Poll(and probably the vitriol on here) change?? ..They(polls) are notoriously fickle and at best are a snap shot in time...

[parajack]

2 minutes ago, NorthernOwl said:

 

Childish? Do you even read you own posts...

As i said,people really dont want this ping pong multi posting......point scoring time to stop unless you have a point to make

[NorthernOwl]

Just now, parajack said:

Yes thats a fair point,but if we lose Sat & results didnt go our way,or if we made the play offs but didnt go up, how quickly would that Poll(and probably the vitriol on here) change?? ..They(polls) are notoriously fickle and at best are a snap shot in time...

 

Yes if we do badly in the future then Moore will lose support. I think that's a given. 

 

But at this moment of time he has support. 

 

It will be interesting to see what people's views are if we reach playoffs but don't go up.

 

Hopefully we won't have to find out.