Wrong Tactics (All Season )

[@owlstalk]

1 minute ago, thewookieisdown said:

While I would retain Moore for next season now, come what may, there probably is more of a case for changing him if we get promoted.  

I hear what you're saying

But it would be a very very brave and ruthless chairman that would do that

Chansiri isn't that chairman in my opinion - he tries his hardest to remain as loyal as possible

Plus Moore and Chansiri have a very close friendly positive relationship

I'd put money on Chansiri backing Moore to the hilt to support him next season

[Watto]

1 hour ago, @owlstalk said:

 

It's weird how annoyed/angry some people get over football

 

How is it ?

It depends how passionate you are about football ( Wednesday) , some people live for it while others take it as a bit of a hobby.

You can't judge people on that , we are all different.

[@owlstalk]

Just now, Watto said:

we are all different.

 

 

That's a judgement

 

[Emerson Thome]

16 hours ago, Tewkesbury said:

Right.

Finally caught the COVID for the first time after 2 years of avoiding it, so I have plenty of time but my head's all over the place, hence the long rambling posts the last couple of days. I know what I want to say, just can't get it down.

I just wrote 4 full paragraphs, just to read them back and find that they completely missed the point, so I'll start again and use a more structured approach to keep my head straight.

 

First, a disclaimer.

Lee Gregory would be on my team sheet every time. But mainly as an impact sub, where I think he'd be the best player in the league.

 

1. Off the ball.

2.. Oxford.

3.. Movement.

4. Wigan.

 

1. Off the ball.

There's one rule. If the ball isn't going into an area, neither is Gregory.

He will happily make runs, as long as that's where the ball is going. At no time will you will see him on a dummy run. He'll dart around the six yard box, but that's it.

When was you last saw him run to the sideline with a defender to give another striker space to run into?

When we have the ball in our half, he's always the one up front in the middle with the CBs. Why? It serves no purpose.

We'd be better served with someone faster there, or someone who will move them about. When he is there, instead of making sideways dummy runs to open up passing lanes, he always comes back into midfield to get the ball, which brings their defence forward and clogs midfield, making it harder for everyone. If he let someone else up there to run about and played in the hole behind, we'd be better off. Defenders can mark him loosely, as they know he can't turn them and he'll pass it back anyway, then they can just get back to the middle. Watch how close they mark Kamberi and Sow when they're the last man. They'll have one man trying to toe the ball away from them with another hugging them like a kid with a kitten. Because with them there's a threat that they'll turn and run.

 

2. Oxford.

While not exactly a masterclass, it was a proof of concept. Up to that half, 4231 had failed abysmally. When Berahino came on and started dragging defenders about, we started finding space and overlaps all over and dominated. Compared to now, it wasn't anything special, compared to the games before, it was great. We equalised, then got caught on the break while still protesting the push on Pato for a penalty.

Here's the thing. that was the only half of football we played in 4231 without Gregory leading. We tried every other attacker in every other position to try and make it work. The only one who didn't change was Gregory, but he was the only one who didn't fit the formation as it needs a selfless striker to make space for the others to run into, and If the ball isn't going into an area, neither is Gregory. So it failed.

 

3. Movement.

All four of the above are good off the ball and make intelligent runs to make space. They're all happy to run to the corner flag if it takes a defender away.

The other thing is threat.

You have no threat whatsoever of Gregory turning you or getting in behind and getting free. He gets 2-3 of these balls every game. They just chase him down and catch up after a couple of steps, or herd him to the corner flag.

Pato has the threat of knocking you over and getting free, it's happened a few times.

Kamberi can turn you and get free.

Sow has the pace to turn you and cause havoc. Teams are very respectful of Sow's pace.

Berahino has the tricks to get past you and get free.

Both Kamberi and Sow make some great runs, but are usually picked up late, leading to offside or not seen at all. This is mainly down to gelling and knowing each other's traits, given extended runs and this would improve as it did when Kamberi played more. Gregory was offside twice v Fleetwood and Bannan knows his runs like his own kids.

 

4. Wigan.

This is where my stamina gripe comes in.

Gregory is capable of putting in a great grafting performance. When he has to.

He usually plays on a cycle, like clockwork. 1 good game, 2-3 quiet ones.

Unless there's a new striker coming in with something to prove. Then he ups his game massively.

Wigan. Pato's first game as striker.

Sunderland. Kamberi's first game back as striker.

Plymouth. Sow's first start as a striker.

Cambridge. His first game back as striker.

 

This is the issue.

He can push extended periods of graft if he wants, but it's like he thinks 'job done' then goes back to half arsing it. 

He's the best striker over 15-20 minutes in this league by far. But then he switches off.

I get that he's 33. He shouldn't be able to graft for 90 minutes every game. But then if he can't, he shouldn't play 90 minutes every game.

And if you can only put a good 90 in every third game, why are we building a side around him?

 

There's not surprising that we have only won more than 2 on the bounce when he hasn't started.

We know how good he can be, it's just that he doesn't do it half as much as he should.

 

Can he now push out the next 4 games at 100%?

That is our season defining question.

 

Thanks. I disagree with some of this, but not going to ping pong too much backwards and forwards. It is a well-written post and you make a good case.

 

I'll just make one point, on the If the ball isn't going into an area, neither is Gregory. Is this partly about experience? Jamie Vardy used to charge around like a lunatic, and as he got older his manager's persuaded him to save his energy for the crucial moments. And he scored more Premier League goals past the age of 30 than anyone, once he had adapted.

 

I would have thought we want at least one of our strikers saving himself for where the ball is going. Particularly if we can pair him with someone a bit more unpredictable.

 

Otherwise, the opposite end of the spectrum, we get Michele Di Piedi running around like a lunatic but nowhere near the ball.

[Tewkesbury]

3 hours ago, Emerson Thome said:

 

Thanks. I disagree with some of this, but not going to ping pong too much backwards and forwards. It is a well-written post and you make a good case.

 

I'll just make one point, on the If the ball isn't going into an area, neither is Gregory. Is this partly about experience? Jamie Vardy used to charge around like a lunatic, and as he got older his manager's persuaded him to save his energy for the crucial moments. And he scored more Premier League goals past the age of 30 than anyone, once he had adapted.

 

I would have thought we want at least one of our strikers saving himself for where the ball is going. Particularly if we can pair him with someone a bit more unpredictable.

 

Otherwise, the opposite end of the spectrum, we get Michele Di Piedi running around like a lunatic but nowhere near the ball.

Morning.

 

It is experience. Absolutely. 

He's 33, he'd be daft not to.

 

And we'd be fine with him doing that if we hadn't formulated our entire style of play around him. And in a league like this, can we afford to play a man down for up to 60 minutes?

Because that's the difference between him and the likes of Vardy.

 

Vardy still has most of his pace and acceleration, with enough skill to turn a man and leave him behind. So while Jamie's recharging his batteries he wanders about on the backline. Wherever he goes, the defence has to follow, usually 5-10 yards goalside. 

So even though he's not charging about, he's still effecting the game, creating space for others, moving the defence back.

 

Gregory mostly stays in a lane right in the middle of the pitch. Defences push up and as he's in the middle and not going to turn them, both CBs are available to fill any spaces that we could run into. This clogs midfield and we end up tapping it about sideways and backwards, leading to mistakes. How many times have we been caught in possession this season?

 

Gregory missed 10 games this season, we kept clean sheets in 6.

 

I'll also touch on partners.

People go on about a settled partner for him. But, here's the thing. Gregory's partner is not there to score. His primary job is to run about, press, make space for Gregory and pick up any scraps that he leaves.

But when you're playing 2 games a week, where you're doing the work of 2 men, you can't play every game. Some games even Bannan is up there picking up the slack.

 

I'll also add this little bit, he's always going to be our best striker, because all of our others were set up to fail.

It also explains the dropping when they score. They aren't there to score. They are there to ryn themselves into the ground for 90 minutes, tjen back to the bench for the next sacrifice.

 

The thing is, you can't take any point in isolation, you can go down a rabbit hole with this effects this, which effects this and so on.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

I don't think I've ever seen someone force themselves through such mental contortions in an attempt to convince themselves and others that what they're seeing doesn't tally with reality.

 

Which, when you consider this is Owlstalk, is really quite something.

 

 

Misrepresenting Gregory as a selfish player who piggybacks off his teammates' efforts is ridiculous.

 

He's one of the hardest-working forwards we've had in years, and his teammates all benefit from his intelligent movement, link-up play, physical battling and defensive contributions.

 

Whoever's partnering Gregory is 100% there to score.

 

I'd be astonished if any of his teammates viewed playing alongside him as being 'set up to fail'.

[Tewkesbury]

2 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

I don't think I've ever seen someone force themselves through such mental contortions in an attempt to convince themselves and others that what they're seeing doesn't tally with reality.

 

Which, when you consider this is Owlstalk, is really quite something.

 

 

Misrepresenting Gregory as a selfish player who piggybacks off his teammates' efforts is ridiculous.

 

He's one of the hardest-working forwards we've had in years, and his teammates all benefit from his intelligent movement, link-up play, physical battling and defensive contributions.

 

Whoever's partnering Gregory is 100% there to score.

 

I'd be astonished if any of his teammates viewed playing alongside him as being 'set up to fail'.

Ok.

 

Have I once said he's lazy or selfish?

 

He's doing a job, one he's probably been told to do, but whatever you say, while he's on the pitch, he's the man, and our tactics are all designed to support him in that.

 

So, without going down the  Bobby Boucher "You're wrong" route, do you have any evidence, observations or examples to support your claims?

 

As he's played in 35 games this season, there must be shedloads of examples of the following to show me how wrong I am. So when has he:

Outworked his partner in running or pressing over 90 minutes?

Made an unselfish dummy run to give his partner space?

Physically dominated a defender over a game?

Made a meaningful defensive contribution?

 

I'll throw you a bone and give you link up play, as he does it well. The issue is WHY IS HE DROPPING BACK TO LINK UP WHEN HE'S THE TOP STRIKER, IT'S NOT HIS JOB.

 

If he wants to be on the last man, the forward target, then he needs to be that, and move defenders away from play, not bring them closer.

 

This is the issue, he wants to be the number 9 without the off the ball movement and running, but he also wants to be the number 10 without the pressing and running.

 

If he played just as a 10, a Teddy Sheringham, say, it would be fine, and he'd be good at it.

However he also plays the number 9 at the same time which makes us too closed up and easy to mark.

 

On a different note, did you like the song I wrote for you?

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Tewkesbury said:

Ok.

 

Have I once said he's lazy or selfish?

 

He's doing a job, one he's probably been told to do, but whatever you say, while he's on the pitch, he's the man, and our tactics are all designed to support him in that.

 

So, without going down the  Bobby Boucher "You're wrong" route, do you have any evidence, observations or examples to support your claims?

 

As he's played in 35 games this season, there must be shedloads of examples of the following to show me how wrong I am. So when has he:

Outworked his partner in running or pressing over 90 minutes?

Made an unselfish dummy run to give his partner space?

Physically dominated a defender over a game?

Made a meaningful defensive contribution?

 

I'll throw you a bone and give you link up play, as he does it well. The issue is WHY IS HE DROPPING BACK TO LINK UP WHEN HE'S THE TOP STRIKER, IT'S NOT HIS JOB.

 

If he wants to be on the last man, the forward target, then he needs to be that, and move defenders away from play, not bring them closer.

 

This is the issue, he wants to be the number 9 without the off the ball movement and running, but he also wants to be the number 10 without the pressing and running.

 

If he played just as a 10, a Teddy Sheringham, say, it would be fine, and he'd be good at it.

However he also plays the number 9 at the same time which makes us too closed up and easy to mark.

 

On a different note, did you like the song I wrote for you?

 

Sounds like Harry Kane

[Tewkesbury]

1 minute ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

 

Sounds like Harry Kane

That's who I had in mind actually. Him and Sheringham. I'd love to see Gregory in the slot behind a faster front man, where his strengths would be best served.

 

The issue is he plays the Kane role without the pressing, and does the Son role without the running, while the other bloke (and often Bannan) is left to do the donkey work of both roles.

 

If we had a clear division between the roles, with one doing one role and one doing the other, we should be good. I reckon when Windass gets back we will see a Kane/Son type of relationship.

However what we have now is an abomination, where all of the off the ball work is in one role and all of the on the ball stuff is in the other.

[NorthernOwl]

15 hours ago, thewookieisdown said:

While I would retain Moore for next season now, come what may, there probably is more of a case for changing him if we get promoted. You could take the view that he knows what he is doing at D3 level, but the higher league needs something different, and his previous championship record isn't inspiring. Don't think that would be my view, but I could see the case. (A parallel: Warnock has a great record in the championship; less convincing in the Prem).

 

If we don't go up, be inclined to keep him on the basis that he has now built something which works at this level and ought to put us well in the mix for next season. There may be a better option out there, but we'd need some luck to find it. 

 

He's only had two thirds of a season at championship level as a manager and that was in his first job.

 

It think it would be harsh to say he's not up to managing in the championship based on that. Even then he left West brom in 4th place in the league. Probably an undercievement given their squad at the time but hardly an all out disaster.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, NorthernOwl said:

 

He's only had two thirds of a season at championship level as a manager and that was in his first job.

 

It think it would be harsh to say he's not up to managing in the championship based on that. Even then he left West brom in 4th place in the league. Probably an undercievement given their squad at the time but hardly an all out disaster.

What about the third of a season he had with us, taking only 13 points from 14 games resulting in our relegation. Convenient to not mention that at all. We only need 16 points from those 14 games to stay up and it was a failure to not even achieve that.

[@owlstalk]

7 minutes ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

What about the third of a season he had with us, taking only 13 points from 14 games resulting in our relegation.  

He was in hospital with double pneumonia of the lungs and COVID fighting for his life

FFS

You can sod off with 'he got us relegated' crap

Honesly can't be doing with fans who shout 'should have done better' when someone's fighting for their life in hospital and not even at work 

And you know what? 

We got enough points as a team to stay up

It was only, purely, and solely Chansiri's points deduction that relegated us - FACT

 

[Guest]

Just now, @owlstalk said:

He was in hospital with double pneumonia of the lungs and COVID fighting for his life

FFS

You can sod off with 'he got us relegated' crap

 

 

The chairman's point deduction was the main culprit, but Monk, Pulls and Moore all did atrociously bad. It was a comedy of errors. And the manager not being at the training ground whilst I'm sure isn't ideal the tactics and training were still run by his two main assistants for which he has responsibility.

 

If when Moore was hired, whoever came in you said to them do you think you can get 16 points from 14 games to keep this lot up (or only 15 points as long as you win at Derby on the last day), they'd have backed themselves to do that all day long.

 

The facts are didn't get enough points to stay up when it was more than possible. And didn't compete for automatic promotion with the highest budget in League 1. Everything else is just conjecture and noise.

 

 

[NorthernOwl]

4 minutes ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

What about the third of a season he had with us, taking only 13 points from 14 games resulting in our relegation. Convenient to not mention that at all. We only need 16 points from those 14 games to stay up and it was a failure to not even achieve that.

 

Given the circumstances at the time I wouldn't be using this as evidence Moore isn't capable of managing in the championship. I'm surprised you would judge him so harshly knowing what a difficult situation it was.

[@owlstalk]

1 minute ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

The chairman's point deduction was the main culprit, but Monk, Pulls and Moore all did atrociously bad. It was a comedy of errors. And the manager not being at the training ground whilst I'm sure isn't ideal the tactics and training were still run by his two main assistants for which he has responsibility.

 

If when Moore was hired, whoever came in you said to them do you think you can get 16 points from 14 games to keep this lot up (or only 15 points as long as you win at Derby on the last day), they'd have backed themselves to do that all day long.

 

The facts are didn't get enough points to stay up when it was more than possible. And didn't compete for automatic promotion with the highest budget in League 1. Everything else is just conjecture and noise.

 

 

 

 

He was in hospital with double pneumonia of the lungs and COVID fighting for his life

[BridportOwl]

Also, players were not getting paid. The club was an absolute mess when he came in. He has worked wonders.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, NorthernOwl said:

 

Given the circumstances at the time I wouldn't be using this as evidence Moore isn't capable of managing in the championship. I'm surprised you would judge him so harshly knowing what a difficult situation it was.

Thing is though mate, if he came in with 6 games left and we were 8 points adrift or something (which is kind of the situation when he came in at West Brom initially) you'd say yeah there's nothing he could do about that.

 

But 14 games is still nearly a third of the season. Rotherham and Derby imploded and any sort of decent run would have got us out of it even at that stage but Moore couldn't do it.

 

FWIW, at the end of last season I wasn't against Moore, accepted that he'd not had a great start but wanted him to have a fresh start with his own players. It does form part of his overall record here for us though, and its a negative.

[@owlstalk]

1 minute ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

Thing is though mate, if he came in with 6 games left and we were 8 points adrift or something (which is kind of the situation when he came in at West Brom initially) you'd say yeah there's nothing he could do about that.

 

 

He was in hospital with double pneumonia of the lungs and COVID fighting for his life

[@owlstalk]

2 minutes ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

Thing is though mate, if he came in with 6 games left and we were 8 points adrift or something (which is kind of the situation when he came in at West Brom initially) you'd say yeah there's nothing he could do about that.

 

But 14 games is still nearly a third of the season. Rotherham and Derby imploded and any sort of decent run would have got us out of it even at that stage but Moore couldn't do it.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Just now, @owlstalk said:

 

 

 

 

You keep repeating this but his assistants still ran everything for him and Smith said to the media at the time that Moore was inputting via FaceTime.

 

Whilst its not ideal it's still part of his overall record as manager here.

 

As I said, at the end of last season some of our fans wanted him out but I didn't, and part of that was because of these extenuating circumstances.

 

I'm more disappointed with this season than last season. If he gets us over the line though then all will be forgiven.