Premier League 21/22

[Guest T Hardy]

10 minutes ago, SiJ said:

He's won it twice already.

 

The Barca team was perhaps the greatest club side ever. Maybe, just maybe, he may have had something to do with that? 

 

And yes, they clearly want to win the Champions League, but we are talking about a knockout competition. For years, Chelsea tried and failed to win the thing and then a caretaker in Di Matteo did it for them. Avram Grant got the closest before then.

 

Fergie won it twice, once in the last few seconds and the other on pens. 

 

It's not all about luck, but there is always going to be a degree of fortune in such a competition.

 

 

Spot on.

 

The only fair measure of consistent success is the league. Knockout tournaments are way too unpredictable (Greece and Portugal fluked the Euros, Chelsea fluked the CL in 2012), and pre-VAR teams (very often Real) got dodgy decisions going their way. I seem to remember a Real Bayern game when Real got an offside goal and Vidal got a red card for almost nothing, there’s plenty more examples. People will mention that night at Stamford Bridge, whilst conveniently forgetting in the first leg, Barca had a legitimate goal ruled out, and Abidal got sent off at Stamford Bridge when he did nothing. 
 

Pep tries to be too clever in some big games and it does backfire on him, but just because he hasn’t won the CL more than 2 times it doesn’t mean he’s overrated. As already mentioned, some regard Fergie as the best ever and he only won it twice whilst United totally rode their luck, whereas Pep’s two victories came from completely outplaying Fergie teams. 
 

It’s not just about winning the knockout competitions either, he built a Barca team which was the core of the Spain team that won the WC and Euros in 2010 and 2012. Likewise with Bayern and Germany in 2014, although he didn’t win the CL there, you’ll find that most who were there at Bayern said he made them better. The players got rid of Ancelotti because they found it too relaxed after Pep.

Edited August 16, 2021 by T Hardy

[sheffield_dave]

2 minutes ago, SiJ said:

He's won it twice already.

 

The Barca team was perhaps the greatest club side ever. Maybe, just maybe, he may have had something to do with that? 

 

 

Undoubtedly he did.

 

Which is exactly my point of why clubs like Bayern & City bring him in to take them to the next level. Particularly for City, Pep is there specifically to take them through the various stages towards being "the greatest club side ever" - or at least a starting point where they can be in that conversation through sustained league domination and multiple European honours. 

 

He didn't win the ultimate pots at Bayern and so far he hasn't at City. Like I say, this is year 6 now at City. What's the stance on Pep if he's only delivered half the league titles available in that time and still not won the CL, if that's where we're at by the end of May 2022?

 

Nobody is disputing that Pep is a great manager. The conversation here is about being "overrated", and I think that's fair game - as far as some of the fawning over him, or shutting down questions about his record, is concerned. 

[Guest T Hardy]

2 minutes ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

Undoubtedly he did.

 

Which is exactly my point of why clubs like Bayern & City bring him in to take them to the next level. Particularly for City, Pep is there specifically to take them through the various stages towards being "the greatest club side ever" - or at least a starting point where they can be in that conversation through sustained league domination and multiple European honours. 

 

He didn't win the ultimate pots at Bayern and so far he hasn't at City. Like I say, this is year 6 now at City. What's the stance on Pep if he's only delivered half the league titles available in that time and still not won the CL, if that's where we're at by the end of May 2022?

 

Nobody is disputing that Pep is a great manager. The conversation here is about being "overrated", and I think that's fair game - as far as some of the fawning over him, or shutting down questions about his record, is concerned. 

You can argue he did take those clubs to the next level when you look at records broke domestically, and what the Bayern players say about him and the way City played when they got 100 points. Yeah, he hasn’t won the CL with those teams. But the best teams often don’t win knockout competitions, and I think far too much emphasis is put on the winners of them.. taking Portugal for example in 2016, finished 3rd in their group, won one game in 90 minutes and Ronaldo went off after 10 minutes in the final, yet all you hear is that he carried them to the trophy. If Rudiger got a straight red in the final this year and City won 2-1, some would say Pep has now proved he’s the best - obviously that didn’t happen, but it just shows I think that we focus far too much I think on knockout games and whether they are a fair measure of what a manager has achieved, I know it’s everything to some people, but for me it’s far too unpredictable.

[CalmJimmers]

2 minutes ago, T Hardy said:

You can argue he did take those clubs to the next level when you look at records broke domestically, and what the Bayern players say about him and the way City played when they got 100 points. Yeah, he hasn’t won the CL with those teams. But the best teams often don’t win knockout competitions, and I think far too much emphasis is put on the winners of them.. taking Portugal for example in 2016, finished 3rd in their group, won one game in 90 minutes and Ronaldo went off after 10 minutes in the final, yet all you hear is that he carried them to the trophy. If Rudiger got a straight red in the final this year and City won 2-1, some would say Pep has now proved he’s the best - obviously that didn’t happen, but it just shows I think that we focus far too much I think on knockout games and whether they are a fair measure of what a manager has achieved, I know it’s everything to some people, but for me it’s far too unpredictable.

 

I sort of get the point, but also domestically City spend above and beyond what everybody else spend year on year. Plus, domestically, teams in Bulgaria, Romania etc win it every year, it doesn't mean their managers are the best ever.

 

And I would argue that far more often than not the best teams win the biggest competitions. Of course there is an element of luck, but you have to be the best team with the best players and managers, physically, technically and mentally to win. Otherwise it'd be random every year.

[SiJ]

18 minutes ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

Undoubtedly he did.

 

Which is exactly my point of why clubs like Bayern & City bring him in to take them to the next level. Particularly for City, Pep is there specifically to take them through the various stages towards being "the greatest club side ever" - or at least a starting point where they can be in that conversation through sustained league domination and multiple European honours. 

 

He didn't win the ultimate pots at Bayern and so far he hasn't at City. Like I say, this is year 6 now at City. What's the stance on Pep if he's only delivered half the league titles available in that time and still not won the CL, if that's where we're at by the end of May 2022?

 

Nobody is disputing that Pep is a great manager. The conversation here is about being "overrated", and I think that's fair game - as far as some of the fawning over him, or shutting down questions about his record, is concerned. 

If he continues to churn out domestic league titles and cups, then he will be in the conversation for the greatest PL manager ever, though I will always consider Fergie to be that. 

 

I get your point on Bayern, though I think it is probably easier said than done to come in as a new manager following a team just winning the treble. The assumption will be you sweep all before you, but I think that's a lot easier said than done. Teams have natural cycles and I do wonder if Pep's tenure coincided with that team declining somewhat. 

[SiJ]

Just now, CalmJimmers said:

 

I sort of get the point, but also domestically City spend above and beyond what everybody else spend year on year. Plus, domestically, teams in Bulgaria, Romania etc win it every year, it doesn't mean their managers are the best ever.

 

And I would argue that far more often than not the best teams win the biggest competitions. Of course there is an element of luck, but you have to be the best team with the best players and managers, physically, technically and mentally to win. Otherwise it'd be random every year.

The thing is Real won the Champs League how many times it was and yet they came up short in La Liga nearly every single time during that period. 

 

No one in their right mind would suggest that Zidane is a better manager than Pep, surely? 

[CalmJimmers]

1 minute ago, SiJ said:

The thing is Real won the Champs League how many times it was and yet they came up short in La Liga nearly every single time during that period. 

 

No one in their right mind would suggest that Zidane is a better manager than Pep, surely? 

 

Yeah fair, he's nowhere near. Guess it really does come down to opinion doesn't it. He's still fantastic and his teams are a joy to watch.

[SiJ]

At the end of the day, he's always going to have that mark against him that he's only managed elite level clubs. Unlike a lot of his peers, he isn't seen to have worked his way up, whether that's entirely fair or not. 

 

I suppose him working his way up was when he coached Barca's youth teams and possibly the b team? Got to think he must have done some bloody good job with them though  

[Guest T Hardy]

2 minutes ago, CalmJimmers said:

 

I sort of get the point, but also domestically City spend above and beyond what everybody else spend year on year. Plus, domestically, teams in Bulgaria, Romania etc win it every year, it doesn't mean their managers are the best ever.

 

And I would argue that far more often than not the best teams win the biggest competitions. Of course there is an element of luck, but you have to be the best team with the best players and managers, physically, technically and mentally to win. Otherwise it'd be random every year.

Real went 12 years without winning a CL and I’m sure I read they spent way over a billion in this time. Spending money doesn’t guarantee European success.

 

If those managers in Bulgaria and Romania are breaking records all the time and getting praise all around for the quality of their football, they’d deserve the recognition.

I’m not sure the very best team often wins. As just mentioned, Real sacked off the league for the Europe when they won theirs. Wonder if there’s a stat out there for how often the bookie favourite wins? City have been favourites every year since Pep joined I think. 

 

[SiJ]

You see what Pep needs if he's going to win the Champs League - ironically, after yesterday's result - is to one day get Spurs in the final. 

 

If you get that then you're pretty much absolutely nailed on to bring the thing to the Etihad. 

[Guest T Hardy]

7 minutes ago, SiJ said:

At the end of the day, he's always going to have that mark against him that he's only managed elite level clubs. Unlike a lot of his peers, he isn't seen to have worked his way up, whether that's entirely fair or not. 

 

I suppose him working his way up was when he coached Barca's youth teams and possibly the b team? Got to think he must have done some bloody good job with them though  

Whilst this is true, he’s not gonna go to someone like Brighton ever is he. The only way he will is if he fails badly in top jobs like Mourinho and Ancelotti and he could end up at a team who normally finishes 4th somewhere. But I think whatever he does now at City, every top club will want him next.

 

If someone in middle management at Amazon gets promoted to CEO and does an incredible job, we won’t say he needs to go to HomeBargains to prove himself  

[sheffield_dave]

11 minutes ago, SiJ said:

At the end of the day, he's always going to have that mark against him that he's only managed elite level clubs. Unlike a lot of his peers, he isn't seen to have worked his way up, whether that's entirely fair or not. 

 

I suppose him working his way up was when he coached Barca's youth teams and possibly the b team? Got to think he must have done some bloody good job with them though  

 

Pep has obviously done a good job everywhere, and personally I'm not questioning how he's reached this position or why he's only managed the clubs he has. As you said earlier, I think he's in this position by right.

 

I just stand by that there are some question marks. I think "Should Pep have won more top honours in the last 10 years given the clubs he's managed" is a fair question and fair game for debate. I think a more honest conversation about his record at City - should he not lift the league or CL this year - would also be fair game. 

 

Again, nobody is debating whether Pep is a good or even great manager or not. The question marks around Pep concern statements around him being the best manager in PL history, or the greatest manager of all time, which is both a compliment to his ability and record, but also a fair question when it comes to the term "overrated". 

[SiJ]

12 minutes ago, T Hardy said:

Whilst this is true, he’s not gonna go to someone like Brighton ever is he. The only way he will is if he fails badly in top jobs like Mourinho and Ancelotti and he could end up at a team who normally finishes 4th somewhere. But I think whatever he does now at City, every top club will want him next.

 

If someone in middle management at Amazon gets promoted to CEO and does an incredible job, we won’t say he needs to go to HomeBargains to prove himself  

I know. 

 

It's one of those odd arguments that you see floated about. 

 

I bet he couldn't do it at League One! 

 

Tbf, he might not be able to do it at League One, but then I kinda doubt that any manager from League One could manage Man City. 

 

He's an elite level coach who manages elite level clubs and players. That's his thing and he's pretty bloody good at it. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by SiJ

[SiJ]

5 minutes ago, sheffield_dave said:

 

Pep has obviously done a good job everywhere, and personally I'm not questioning how he's reached this position or why he's only managed the clubs he has. As you said earlier, I think he's in this position by right.

 

I just stand by that there are some question marks. I think "Should Pep have won more top honours in the last 10 years given the clubs he's managed" is a fair question and fair game for debate. I think a more honest conversation about his record at City - should he not lift the league or CL this year - would also be fair game. 

 

Again, nobody is debating whether Pep is a good or even great manager or not. The question marks around Pep concern statements around him being the best manager in PL history, or the greatest manager of all time, which is both a compliment to his ability and record, but also a fair question when it comes to the term "overrated". 

Truth be told, I don't think he will ever topple Fergie as the greatest PL manager of all time and I don't think anyone will. 

 

Fergie was not only the most dominant manager in PL history, he pretty much defined the PL for two decades. 

[Guest T Hardy]

2 minutes ago, SiJ said:

Truth be told, I don't think he will ever topple Fergie as the greatest PL manager of all time and I don't think anyone will. 

 

Fergie was not only the most dominant manager in PL history, he pretty much defined the PL for two decades. 

Will anyone ever? The game is so different now. Will any manager ever be given the luxury to build a new team every few years? Pep might if he wants to, but he’d need 10 more titles to match what Fergie got. 10 years minimum and there’s no chance they’ll go 10 in a row. 10 in 15 years would be seen as dominance and I can’t even see that. You’d say maybe 20 years to get 10? He’d be 70.

 

On Fergie, whilst I agree he’s the best, had a chat with some mates the other night and we don’t think Fergie would fit the modern era. If you’ve read his books he’s all about power and control, and he hated the way it was going more towards players and agents. He despises social media too, remember when United played Liverpool and Pogba had his emoji shaved into his hair and it was all over Old Trafford? Never on Fergie’s watch. Of course, Fergie got rid of Pogba in the first place because of his agent. Doesn’t take anything away from him, but I think it’s interesting to consider that Fergie probably wouldn’t fit today. You could argue he’d adapt, but with his obsession over control, I’m not sure..

[SiJ]

11 minutes ago, T Hardy said:

Will anyone ever? The game is so different now. Will any manager ever be given the luxury to build a new team every few years? Pep might if he wants to, but he’d need 10 more titles to match what Fergie got. 10 years minimum and there’s no chance they’ll go 10 in a row. 10 in 15 years would be seen as dominance and I can’t even see that. You’d say maybe 20 years to get 10? He’d be 70.

 

On Fergie, whilst I agree he’s the best, had a chat with some mates the other night and we don’t think Fergie would fit the modern era. If you’ve read his books he’s all about power and control, and he hated the way it was going more towards players and agents. He despises social media too, remember when United played Liverpool and Pogba had his emoji shaved into his hair and it was all over Old Trafford? Never on Fergie’s watch. Of course, Fergie got rid of Pogba in the first place because of his agent. Doesn’t take anything away from him, but I think it’s interesting to consider that Fergie probably wouldn’t fit today. You could argue he’d adapt, but with his obsession over control, I’m not sure..

Not sure. 

 

Fergie's great strength was his man management and his ability to know what was needed for each individual player. 

 

I suppose his last couple of seasons coincided with the Twitter and social media exploding, but yes, I'm not sure how he would have dealt with some of the modern pros. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, 442 said:

 

Corporate.

 

Free ale.

 

Fair enough. 

Wouldn't have got me turning down Wednesday's first home league game with fans in 18 months in favour of watching dirtyleeds & Man Ure though.

[scram]

As one of pep's fanbpoys i'm enjoying this debate and have to say that although he built the best team and style of play i think i've ever seen - there are question marks about his ability to win the big prizes even when the cards are nicely stacked in his favour

 

Let me put this to bed first - those who critices his teams at barca as "boring" completely misrepresented his style - the "tika-taka" wasn't about playing 400 passes between the defenders, keeper and deep midfielder - and any idiot that says that simply did not watch them

 

It was about an extremely high press with what became known as the "5 second fury" - ie after losing possession they had 5 seconds to get it back in any chaotic fashion they could - and if they didn't then retreat into some sort of formation - but they often did win the ball back because they had the equivalent of basketball's full court press which had never been seen on a football pitch before

 

It was amazing to see

 

But he hasn't fully recreated that anywhere and while he is still an awesome coach and one of the best ever - he does have that question mark

 

Same with Fergie - he got outsmarted in europe way too often to be called one of the tactical greats imo

[Rodger Wylde]

Am I just getting old and grumpy or does anyone else have no interest in watching Manchester City hammer Norwich City 5-0. I'm sure City fans would love it.

 

I recorded MotD and started watching it and just thought, 'this is dull and what is the point'.

[Ever the pessimist]

40 minutes ago, Rodger Wylde said:

Am I just getting old and grumpy or does anyone else have no interest in watching Manchester City hammer Norwich City 5-0. I'm sure City fans would love it.

 

I recorded MotD and started watching it and just thought, 'this is dull and what is the point'.

It’s literally very predictable. In that, I predicted 5-0 on super 6.