Latest Plans on Finishing The Season

[billyblack]

48 minutes ago, Mystic Neg said:

 

The problem with pulling it though is that it does remain unfair but only on the teams doing well and it rewards teams who were up the creek without a paddle which is the wrong way round. 

 

The whole point here is that there is no perfect solution, so when you chose a solution it needs be seen as benefiting teams who have performed the best despite the season not being completed. You're not in the top 3 or bottom 3 due to good or poor fortune at this stage of the season. 

 

75/80% of the season completed is enough in my mind to justify a decision on promotion / relegation when faced with a crisis like this and it should be the poor performing clubs that have to suck it up. 

 

It's pretty clear leagues one and two recognise that hence them only voting on how to decide promotion and relegation from the table as it stands, voiding is not on the table and quite rightly so in my mind. 

The solutuon needs to be consistent. Whatever is applied needs to be the same for every divsion and every club.

[billyblack]

2 minutes ago, rickygoo said:

Rotherham would be happy with PPG I’m pretty sure.

 

 

 

In terms of what to do self interest will dictate a lot of it. Rotherham,Coventry, Leeds etc - teams in promotion places - will want to finish the season or have it decided on some form of PPG. Teams in playoffs and pushing for it will want to play on. Teams in relegation zone will want to play on or null and void.  Teams just above relegation Zone might prefer PPG or null and void and for teams in between it doesn’t matter.

 

But that’s all set against what’s possible and the financial implications of playing on with contracts running out etc and the cost of testing. It’s a legal and financial minefield. The players, managers and lawyers will no doubt have their say and then the clubs will have to vote on it. 

It will be a legal and financial minefield whatevere is decided. So just pick a consistent solution for everyone and deal with it afterwards.

[Dick_Turpin]

1 hour ago, Dan™ said:

The only objectively fair resolution is for the season to be pulled from the history books and started again. I haven't heard any other solution which isn't unfair to at least one other club.

 

I do understand the need for the EFL/PL to be seen as trying everything possible to get the season restarted or completed in some other way though, thanks to the lawsuits which will inevitably follow regardless of what happens next. Hopefully that is all they're doing and they don't genuinely have any desire to restart or end the season with some of these ridiculous adjustments they've dreamt up anyway.

You may think this is the only objectively fair resolution but I don’t think it is an objective decision- it’s subjective. But even if it is it’s still not something the EFL board will be able to impose on the clubs if they don’t want it unless it’s the only legally viable option. Ultimately the clubs will have to decide between themselves - based on legal opinions and the willingness of players etc. 

[Ante's Bubbly]

18 hours ago, rickygoo said:

That’s apparently an option being considered for Leagues One and Two but our collapse means there’s no way that would happen in the Championship. It would clearly be ridiculous. 

The only outcome based on actual results is ridiculous!

 

As opposed to what?

 

Theories over what might happen next?

 

If somebody had proposed a scenario sx months ago, where the whole world would be shutdown for several months, what kind of model would have predicted that? Quite rightly most people would have said it was ridiculous.

 

So lets try not to look at it factually and look instead from a philosophical and statistical position. So, lets imagine that lockdown occurred exactly half way through the season, so that apart from the home and away biasing, we are exactly half way through the fixtures. If we apply any of the models being mentioned would any of those models predict SWFC finishing the season in the bottom half of the table? Not a single one. The complete uncertainty and unpredictability of the leagues from one result to another is exactly what makes it such a money maker for the bookies. The ridiculously poor run a team has can just as ridiculously reverse, teams can unravel and tumble down the division and there are examples galore of these kinds of things happening, but what happened up to the half way stage, did actually happen. Nobody predicted exactly what happened next, or where every team finished as play finished and none of the models could possibly have done so, there is too much guesswork involved.

 

Even if we now complete the fixtures behind closed doors, not everybody will be satisfied. Especially those who lose out on promotion, or get relegated. I feel that either every team has to sign up 100% to the fact that this is an act of god, or whatever and scrap the season, or vote for a solution, or divisional solutions that would sort out the promotions and relegations across all four top divisions, with each team agreeing to go by the majority decision, no matter how it affects them. 

 

I would personally like to see the games played out, behind closed doors or whatever, with free or paid access via media streaming, but I understand that this would probably not be fit for purpose across all four divisions and may logistically be a nightmare regarding testing etc.

 

 

 

 

[the third man]

Unless games are played there is no way anyone can predict what would have happened in the last nine or so games

 

if football was that easy to forecast we would have all won Skys super six, the pools and bookies would not take bets on football

 

void the season unless all leagues can complete all their games before June 30th, and I cant see how that can be done

[Dick_Turpin]

5 minutes ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

The only outcome based on actual results is ridiculous!

 

As opposed to what?

 

Theories over what might happen next?

 

If somebody had proposed a scenario sx months ago, where the whole world would be shutdown for several months, what kind of model would have predicted that? Quite rightly most people would have said it was ridiculous.

 

So lets try not to look at it factually and look instead from a philosophical and statistical position. So, lets imagine that lockdown occurred exactly half way through the season, so that apart from the home and away biasing, we are exactly half way through the fixtures. If we apply any of the models being mentioned would any of those models predict SWFC finishing the season in the bottom half of the table? Not a single one. The complete uncertainty and unpredictability of the leagues from one result to another is exactly what makes it such a money maker for the bookies. The ridiculously poor run a team has can just as ridiculously reverse, teams can unravel and tumble down the division and there are examples galore of these kinds of things happening, but what happened up to the half way stage, did actually happen. Nobody predicted exactly what happened next, or where every team finished as play finished and none of the models could possibly have done so, there is too much guesswork involved.

 

Even if we now complete the fixtures behind closed doors, not everybody will be satisfied. Especially those who lose out on promotion, or get relegated. I feel that either every team has to sign up 100% to the fact that this is an act of god, or whatever and scrap the season, or vote for a solution, or divisional solutions that would sort out the promotions and relegations across all four top divisions, with each team agreeing to go by the majority decision, no matter how it affects them. 

 

I would personally like to see the games played out, behind closed doors or whatever, with free or paid access via media streaming, but I understand that this would probably not be fit for purpose across all four divisions and may logistically be a nightmare regarding testing etc.

 

 

 

 

I agree with much of what you say but I think to promote a team that was in our position would discredit the whole system. 

 

The clubs will no doubt vote for a preferred option eventually but how the teams adversely affected by that then react is difficult to predict. 

[Dick_Turpin]

This was in The Mirror today - PL hovering over twitching corpses of EFL clubs - https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-b-teams-could-21998675

[Dan™]

19 minutes ago, rickygoo said:

Ultimately the clubs will have to decide between themselves - based on legal opinions and the willingness of players etc. 

 

That's the problem with doing anything other than cancelling the season in my opinion. You're never going to get 100% approval with anything they can think up to resolve this mess, so the only solution which treats every club equally is cancelling the season and resetting to where we were when it started. That way no one can realistically complain about the outcome or claim that they missed out on anything financially (though I'm sure some lawyers would still have a go).

 

The slight alternative to that would be just continuing on with the season as normal whenever we're able to, but that would almost certainly involve long-term changes to season schedule going forward (i.e having future seasons start in January, or whatever), which I can't imagine would be welcomed by many - and would have knock-on consequences for other European and international competitions.

[Dick_Turpin]

8 minutes ago, Dan™ said:

the only solution which treats every club equally is cancelling the season and resetting to where we were when it started.

I don’t think Leeds, West Brom etc would agree that they were being treated equally with Barnsley. 

[Mystic Neg]

32 minutes ago, rickygoo said:

I agree with much of what you say but I think to promote a team that was in our position would discredit the whole system. 

 

The clubs will no doubt vote for a preferred option eventually but how the teams adversely affected by that then react is difficult to predict. 

 

I agree with this, I actually think that they will have little choice but to accept a decision. Not everyone can get what they want, that is clear. The teams adversely affected hands are weak when it comes to a vote largely because they got themselves into this situation and other teams have better hands on merit. I think most of them will realise that.

 

Teams at the top will vote for promotions and relegation to be decided, as will the middle because they will want league prize money sorted ASAP and they won't be bothered about who goes up or down at this stage or want to play games behind closed doors, a logistal and financial nightmare. Even the teams facing relegation may accept their fate just to have a resolution to work with regarding long term planning. The alternative is they get relegated anyway and have to lose more money behind closed doors.

 

I think the spirit and integrity exists amongst the majority of clubs to accept that its better to take something from the season than nothing at all and give some rewards for merit.. At the lower levels of the EFL at least. 

[billyblack]

18 minutes ago, rickygoo said:

I don’t think Leeds, West Brom etc would agree that they were being treated equally with Barnsley. 

Cant please everyone. Cant happen.

[the third man]

7 minutes ago, Mystic Neg said:

 

I agree with this, I actually think that they will have little choice but to accept a decision. Not everyone can get what they want, that is clear. The teams adversely affected hands are weak when it comes to a vote largely because they got themselves into this situation and other teams have better hands on merit. I think most of them will realise that.

 

Teams at the top will vote for promotions and relegation to be decided, as will the middle because they will want league prize money sorted ASAP and they won't be bothered about who goes up or down at this stage or want to play games behind closed doors, a logistal and financial nightmare. Even the teams facing relegation may accept their fate just to have a resolution to work with regarding long term planning. The alternative is they get relegated anyway and have to lose more money behind closed doors.

 

I think the spirit and integrity exists amongst the majority of clubs to accept that its better to take something from the season than nothing at all and give some rewards for merit.. At the lower levels of the EFL at least. 

Don't agree, it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas

if a team is going to get relegated then they will fight not to be relegated, maybe even in court, which would not just mess this season but next as well

 

for the extra amount of money it takes to put three or four home games on behind closed doors, it might well be worthwhile to fight the relegation

 

the first agreement needed is that the majority of the 72 league teams need to agree on a vote to have a vote to end the season according to new rules

 

if a team doesn't want to agree then legal action might be needed to get a court ruling to change the rules, all this takes time

[billyblack]

31 minutes ago, rickygoo said:

This was in The Mirror today - PL hovering over twitching corpses of EFL clubs - https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-b-teams-could-21998675

This will be a disgrace as well. Cant be allowed to happen. If these clubs have too many players to get a game then they need to leave and get a club for 1st team football. 

[Westfield Owl]

20 hours ago, 0114 said:

The more I see the ideas coming from the PL like shortening matches, extra subs, neutral grounds, testing for players before every game and not being allowed to celebrate with team mates the more I think it’s getting desperate and they are clutching at straws to finish the season. 
 

Personally hope the season is just voided. Imagine being promoted and not being allowed to celebrate it in a stadium or even with fellow supporters. Not how I would want it. 

 

Imagine being in a promotion race and sitting in one of the automatic promotion positions with 2/3rds of the season done, then Covid-19 happens.  Promotion is cancelled and your club's finances are f*cked.

 

Wouldn't you want the football authorities to do all they could (without risking/players public health) to TRY and get the season concluded?

 

Unfortunately, whatever football decides to do, there isn't an easy/simple/painless solution here.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Westfield Owl

[0114]

4 minutes ago, Westfield Owl said:

 

Imagine being in a promotion race and sitting in one of the automatic promotion positions with 2/3rds of the season done, then Covid-19 happens.  Promotion is cancelled and your club's finances are f*cked.

 

Wouldn't you want the football authorities to do all they could (without risking/players public health) to TRY and get the season concluded?

 

Unfortunately, whatever football decides to do, there isn't an easy/simple/painless solution here.

I don’t think clubs finances should rely on being promoted. Silly from the club.
 

But if the ideas I detailed above are to

happen, such as you can’t celebrate with team mates but you can stand in a wall or challenge for a header then surely it’s not fully safe to do so. I personally don’t care about finance, promotions and titles over health.

 

For me football is about the memories and finishing the season with no fans, in neutral grounds, not even allowed to celebrate with team mates just isn’t football. It’s all just a charade now to appease TV companies and the PL. Think of all the memories missed in the last 10 games of the season, the Cardiff and Brighton in 2016, Carlisle and Wycombe  in 2012. If we was in a position of promotion I’d want to experience those games and moments not watch them on telly in empty stadiums. Not for me.

[Westfield Owl]

15 minutes ago, 0114 said:

I don’t think clubs finances should rely on being promoted. Silly from the club

 

Neither do most fans mate.  But that horse bolted years (decades?) ago.

 

£200 million to get promoted to Premier these days isn't it?  Who would want to miss out on that...

 

15 minutes ago, 0114 said:

But if the ideas I detailed above are to

happen, such as you can’t celebrate with team mates but you can stand in a wall or challenge for a header then surely it’s not fully safe to do so. I personally don’t care about finance, promotions and titles over health.

 

Me neither.  The club's chairmen do.  They are driving the discourse/decisions here.

 

There's too much money involved to cancel the season.  Unless it's the very last resort.

 

I don't like it.  But I can understand.

 

15 minutes ago, 0114 said:

For me football is about the memories and finishing the season with no fans, in neutral grounds, not even allowed to celebrate with team mates just isn’t football. It’s all just a charade now to appease TV companies and the PL. Think of all the memories missed in the last 10 games of the season, the Cardiff and Brighton in 2016, Carlisle and Wycombe  in 2012. If we was in a position of promotion I’d want to experience those games and moments not watch them on telly in empty stadiums. Not for me.

 

And I bet if we had a sniff of promotion, 90% of our fanbase would be demanding the season be concluded.  Or some other 'solution' that means we get a favourable chance of promotion.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Westfield Owl

[Dick_Turpin]

20 minutes ago, 0114 said:

For me football is about the memories and finishing the season with no fans, in neutral grounds, not even allowed to celebrate with team mates just isn’t football. It’s all just a charade now to appease TV companies and the PL.

I agree with your sentiments but the finances of some clubs - as we know - are in a terrible state. It may be poo or bust - I’m sure the clubs would rather have fans in grounds. Sometimes money is everything when it comes to club survival -  ask fans of clubs that have gone bust.

 

The caveat has to be down to risk assessments. If it isn’t safe of course they shouldn’t play. But it’s down to assessing the level of risk - if that’s even possible given the state of the science. It takes a more scientific-minded brain than mine to work that out. Lawyers, doctors, the PFA, insurers - they’ll all have their say before football starts again. And maybe this time we’ll learn from the Germans. 

[0114]

26 minutes ago, Westfield Owl said:

 

Neither do most fans mate.  But that horse bolted years (decades?) ago.

 

£200 million to get promoted to Premier these days isn't it?  Who would want to miss out on that...

 

 

Me neither.  The club's chairmen do.  They are driving the discourse/decisions here.

 

There's too much money involved to cancel the season.  Unless it's the very last resort.

 

I don't like it.  But I can understand.

 

 

And I bet if we had a sniff of promotion, 90% of our fanbase would be demanding the season be concluded.  Or some other 'solution' that means we get a favourable chance of promotion.

Yes around £200m but a club shouldn’t be gambling their own future chasing promotion. 
 

If it was safe to play we wouldn’t need all these crazy ideas. I get a lot of what your, your right. But if it’s not safe to celebrate with each other but your allowed to contest a header or mark in a wall together then how is this possibly safe?

 

I personally just don’t see how possibly one players life could be risked for financial reasons. Because your right in regards to greedy chairmen, if money wasn’t an issue football would have been cancelled already. Sad predicament really. 

[0114]

16 minutes ago, rickygoo said:

I agree with your sentiments but the finances of some clubs - as we know - are in a terrible state. It may be poo or bust - I’m sure the clubs would rather have fans in grounds. Sometimes money is everything when it comes to club survival -  ask fans of clubs that have gone bust.

 

The caveat has to be down to risk assessments. If it isn’t safe of course they shouldn’t play. But it’s down to assessing the level of risk - if that’s even possible given the state of the science. It takes a more scientific-minded brain than mine to work that out. Lawyers, doctors, the PFA, insurers - they’ll all have their say before football starts again. And maybe this time we’ll learn from the Germans. 

I just think too many of the solutions are driven just by finance. Like I said in the post above, your not going to even be allowed to celebrate with a player because of safety reasons but over 90 minutes it’s ok to come into constant contact with players? Just so contradicting, one player possibly losing their life just isn’t worth the risk of any financial benefits. I personally think we will see a lot of players not wanting to participate. 

[Dick_Turpin]

3 minutes ago, 0114 said:

. I personally think we will see a lot of players not wanting to participate. 

They’d rather break the lockdown by shagging escorts.