Perspective - This is a Major Rebuild & Jos Needs Time

[gurujuan]

Where did all this major rebuild stuff come from anyway? We had a large unwieldy squad, there was always room for pruning without having to replace every single player. With a few young players now starting to come through, we possibly only need 3 or 4 new players to be competitive. We already have enough now, to be doing far better than we are currently, if only we had a coach with a bit more attacking ambition

Edited November 12, 2018 by gurujuan

[the monk]

16 hours ago, Sham67 said:

 

Are you the spokesman of the entire fanbase or just the whiny entitled section of it?

Oh the trendy "entitled" one liner 

How a fan base can be accused of being entitled after 20 years of utter dross is beyond me 

 

I would say it's the opposite , we just accept boring ,non entertaining ,dull, non discript, nil crossing ,bad defending , bad passing ,nil scoring ,nil shooting expensive c rap

 

Entitled my harris

[prowl]

5 hours ago, Utah Owl said:

Bloody autocorrect!

It happens to all of us.

 

A mate of mine was trying to write 'when I was working in the far east'. It came out as 'when I was whoring in the far east'. That took some living down.

[Guest LittleG]

15 hours ago, Roy Of The Roasters said:

 

How on earth can we move forward when we've lost experienced players, we can't afford replacements, and we may yet need to sell one or more of our few saleable players, again without being able to replace.......

 

I can't understand how people don't see that.

 

The utter conundrum that Jos finds himself in is that we have no choice but to move backwards, yet not so far back that we get relegated. I don't know if he'll be succesful, but I have no doubt that his replacement will have just as big a struggle to balance the fans demands with financial reality.

 

And BTW. So many complaints about our defensive and negative tactics on Friday, yet people are calling for the appointment of Mick McCarthy. Say what???

The way we finished last season, gaining points, showing attacking intent and scoring goals. I was looking forward to this style, formation and brand of football being carried forward to this season. Instead we seem to have completely abandoned this approach and gone backwards in terms of our overall play with questionable tactics, formations etc. And this has happened with the same players under his command. It is all a matter of opinions but I don't think he is getting the best out of the players we have got. BTW I'm not championing McCarthy.

[gurujuan]

7 minutes ago, LittleG said:

The way we finished last season, gaining points, showing attacking intent and scoring goals. I was looking forward to this style, formation and brand of football being carried forward to this season. Instead we seem to have completely abandoned this approach and gone backwards in terms of our overall play with questionable tactics, formations etc. And this has happened with the same players under his command. It is all a matter of opinions but I don't think he is getting the best out of the players we have got. BTW I'm not championing McCarthy.

True, he certainly isn’t We saw it with Carlos as well, playing attacking, entertaining football, then for whatever reason, abandoning any attacking ambitions. I hated it when Carlos did it, but at least he could say he was still getting results

[Eightace]

My view is that he is messing about too much.

He has crocks and it is a tough job. Any manager will need time.

I'm not sure though if he is the man to give the time.

I can only base it on what I've seen so far.

We need a settled side.Especially at the back.

He might stay and prove me wrong but the constant changing and where we are in the table backs me up. Hopefully at the end of the season the table will back Jos up. 

[gurujuan]

Just now, Eightace said:

My view is that he is messing about too much.

He has crocks and it is a tough job. Any manager will need time.

I'm not sure though if he is the man to give the time.

I can only base it on what I've seen so far.

We need a settled side.Especially at the back.

He might stay and prove me wrong but the constant changing and where we are in the table backs me up. Hopefully at the end of the season the table will back Jos up. 

It’s the fact that he’s abandoned any attacking intentions, and is treating games like pre season friendlies

[Hughdowd]

I don’t trust jos to do the rebuild tho !!

[Dutch McLovin]

17 hours ago, gurujuan said:

This ^^ We know what the situation is regarding some of the older players, we knew it last season. So did Jos though, his job was to work with the players he has, and organise them into an effective unit There’s no sign that he’s started doing that

This is a great post.

 

No one is disputing the points made by the OP, but you are not telling me that a fit Hutchinson coming off the bench to sure up a game would not result in us winning v West Brom.

 

Forestieri at 29 still has plenty to offer if played regularly.

 

Your not telling me that any other manager would set up to not try and win with the squad we have.

 

Working with the players we have he could go out and attack and entertain. He doesn't. Needs to go ASAP

[MartinOwlMan]

17 hours ago, S36 OWL said:

 

We are being charge premier league prices for shocking football.  I think fans have every right to be pi55ed off.

 

Pricing policy is not Jos' fault. While you might have a point, it has nothing to do with what the OP is saying.

[Hack-Abusi]

15 hours ago, hugeowl said:

Its a mess init 

 

Nothing to say a new face would make much difference this season , if we get close to the bottom though after new year then fresh imputes  of a manager may be needed . 

 

Who knows what constraints Jos is working under . 

This is my biggest worry .. its off the field antics that are shackling the manager who's then having to shuffle his pack every game to ensure that key players are fit and that we don't burn out youngsters ..

 

I appreciate the issues Jos is faced with but i really want to see some consistency from him.. he really needs to just pick an 11 and stick with it for a bit and then mix it up after 5 or so games and stick with that team for a bit and so forth. Chopping and changing each game means less form and consistency from the players and the fans just get on your back after a defeat

[gurujuan]

2 minutes ago, Hack-Abusi said:

This is my biggest worry .. its off the field antics that are shackling the manager who's then having to shuffle his pack every game to ensure that key players are fit and that we don't burn out youngsters ..

 

I appreciate the issues Jos is faced with but i really want to see some consistency from him.. he really needs to just pick an 11 and stick with it for a bit and then mix it up after 5 or so games and stick with that team for a bit and so forth. Chopping and changing each game means less form and consistency from the players and the fans just get on your back after a defeat

He hasn’t even found a good way of playing yet

[Walt]

1 hour ago, gurujuan said:

Where did all this major rebuild stuff come from anyway? We had a large unwieldy squad, there was always room for pruning without having to replace every single player. With a few young players now starting to come through, we possibly only need 3 or 4 new players to be competitive. We already have enough now, to be doing far better than we are currently, if only we had a coach with a bit more attacking ambition

The squad needed a shake up. We lost 3 players out of the defence, two of those key to the way we played (not word beaters but key for us) and the other being the ageing club captain who probably needed replacing anyway. The defence already needed strengthening, it had done for the past couple of seasons, to cull it even more, well it was only going to end up going one way (badly) if replacements weren't brought in, this was blindingly obvious at the time and has proved our undoing as we can not / will not put out a settled back line. It us undermining everything we are trying to do because if you haven't got a settled defensive unit then you're in trouble. Some may have expected the reserves - Palmer and Fox to step up, some may have expected a bomb scare Dutch centre half to suddenly learn how to defend, some may have expected the likes of Thorniley, Penney and Baker to fill the void. Others saw it for what is was - an accident waiting to happen and so it has proved. 

 

*I don't think we have enough to be doing far better than we are doing now, maybe three or four places better maybe but not far better. If we had FFand Matiais (sp?) fit for all of this season and Hector had been here from the season kick off then I could see your point, but that's not been the case.

*I'm not taking into account the situation with the likes of Abdi, Westwood, Hutch etc. as I know sweet fa on what happens behind closed doors but if available then some of them would make us better imo).

 

Where I agree with you is that we only need 3 or 4 players to be competitive but unfortunately we haven't got that luxury. I thought it pre season, we desperately needed a LWB, a RWB and a CB and then a defensive mid. We have addressed the centre back problem and Thorniley is proving more than capable in there. Still the glaring weaknesses remain in both our fullback / wingback positions and opposition managers must see this and target it. Penney may well be our long term answer at LWB but is showing exactly what you'd expect from a kid in his first season. The defensive mid we brought in seems to have gone to the same worth ethic school as Bothroyd so unless he pulls his finger out we are still weak there. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gurujuan]

2 hours ago, Walt said:

The squad needed a shake up. We lost 3 players out of the defence, two of those key to the way we played (not word beaters but key for us) and the other being the ageing club captain who probably needed replacing anyway. The defence already needed strengthening, it had done for the past couple of seasons, to cull it even more, well it was only going to end up going one way (badly) if replacements weren't brought in, this was blindingly obvious at the time and has proved our undoing as we can not / will not put out a settled back line. It us undermining everything we are trying to do because if you haven't got a settled defensive unit then you're in trouble. Some may have expected the reserves - Palmer and Fox to step up, some may have expected a bomb scare Dutch centre half to suddenly learn how to defend, some may have expected the likes of Thorniley, Penney and Baker to fill the void. Others saw it for what is was - an accident waiting to happen and so it has proved. 

 

*I don't think we have enough to be doing far better than we are doing now, maybe three or four places better maybe but not far better. If we had FFand Matiais (sp?) fit for all of this season and Hector had been here from the season kick off then I could see your point, but that's not been the case.

*I'm not taking into account the situation with the likes of Abdi, Westwood, Hutch etc. as I know sweet fa on what happens behind closed doors but if available then some of them would make us better imo).

 

Where I agree with you is that we only need 3 or 4 players to be competitive but unfortunately we haven't got that luxury. I thought it pre season, we desperately needed a LWB, a RWB and a CB and then a defensive mid. We have addressed the centre back problem and Thorniley is proving more than capable in there. Still the glaring weaknesses remain in both our fullback / wingback positions and opposition managers must see this and target it. Penney may well be our long term answer at LWB but is showing exactly what you'd expect from a kid in his first season. The defensive mid we brought in seems to have gone to the same worth ethic school as Bothroyd so unless he pulls his finger out we are still weak there. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I respect your different take on it, and even agree with you on certain aspects Post Wembley, we needed to replace Loovens, and didn’t While it’s true we lost three defenders, at the time, Loovens wasn’t the player he was in those first two years. Hunt, in my opinion, is no better than Palmer, but yes, Venancio has been a big miss 

However, we now have Hector, an excellent player, Penney is the best left back we’ve had in ages, Thorniley another good prospect, who is mature beyond his years, so I don’t actually think the defence has been downgraded.

I see the problems in that particular area, more to do with chopping and changing in systems and personnel Having an inexperienced keeper hasn’t helped either. Don’t get me wrong, Dawson is a very promising young keeper, but he doesn’t have the experience to properly command his area. Another factor is, we heap unnecessary pressure on the back line by giving up any semblence of attacking intent. That lack of attacking ambition, when we have creative talents like, Bannan, Reach and Forestieri, is utterly crazy. I stand by my opinion, that under a more a more forward thinking coach, we would be a lot higher up the table. We are not as bad as Jos makes us look

[Utah Owl]

5 hours ago, gurujuan said:

Where did all this major rebuild stuff come from anyway? We had a large unwieldy squad, there was always room for pruning without having to replace every single player. With a few young players now starting to come through, we possibly only need 3 or 4 new players to be competitive. We already have enough now, to be doing far better than we are currently, if only we had a coach with a bit more attacking ambition

Youngsters starting to come through plus we need 3 or 4 more players? Well that's over half the team. Sounds like a major rebuild to me!

 

Think you've answered your own question!

Edited November 12, 2018 by Utah Owl

[gurujuan]

8 minutes ago, Utah Owl said:

Youngsters starting to come through plus we need 3 or 4 more players? Well that's over half the team. Sounds like a major rebuild to me!

 

Think you've answered your own question!

Not really, it’s still 3 or 4,we already have the younger players Too much upheaval isn’t great, but 3 or 4 players would give us a manageable squad of 25

[Utah Owl]

4 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

Not really, it’s still 3 or 4,we already have the younger players Too much upheaval isn’t great, but 3 or 4 players would give us a manageable squad of 25

..........and where are the 3 or 4 to come from given the financial situation?

 

Surely something has to give meaning the older (i.e 30+) bigger earners need to go so that we have the financial room to manouvre? We are currently hamstrung by an overly large ageing overpaid squad and the Wednesday train has run into the FFP buffers!

 

Incidentally out of the 10 or so players I named in the OP, who would you keep and why?

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Utah Owl

[royalowlisback]

You don't just abandon your tools, and your materials if your trying to build something new.

 

You have to phase them out, not take them all to the scrapyard - then use only a junior hacksaw.....

[gurujuan]

2 minutes ago, Utah Owl said:

..........and where are the 3 or 4 to come from given the financial situation?

 

Surely something has to give meaning the older (i.e 30+) bigger earners need to go so that we have the financial room to manouvre? We are currently hamstrung by an overly large ageing overpaid squad and the Wednesday train has run into the FFP buffers!

 

As I said earlier, I do think some of the high earning soon to be, out of contract players, will need to go. Our squad was definitely too big, so it’s natural wastage As for the three or four players we would need, the money freed up should help, but I’d be happy to do it with loans Don’t think we’ve utilised the loan system really. It’s the best way of obtaining the sort of quality, we could not afford to purchase Most teams recently promoted from this league, have used the loan system extensively

[Weshallovercome]

There's a lot of building analogies in this thread, which just makes me thankful Jos isn't Belgian.