'The players aren't good enough' - The Myth

[torres]

45 minutes ago, ramone said:

So you dont think the team are capable of beating Bolton and Ipswich at home? 

 

Carlos left in December, we're now in the middle of March. At what point do you stop blaming Carlos (which ludicrous by the way, in my opinion) and start questioning Jos. Remembering all the time that Jos' strengths are motivation and discipline. 

 

I think we got away with absolute murder last season

 

There were countless games whereby we rode our luck to the extreme and somehow came out with 3 points.

 

Wigan both home and away - poorer team than Ipswich/Bolton

Birmingham at home - how did we win 3-0??

Blackburn both home and away - the goal for them that should have been but wasn't given

Even Rotherham both games

 

These were with most of the ''first team'' available.

 

We have carried on that slugglish way this season and the luck has ran out.

 

The manager is out of his depth i agree, but the players really are not up to much.

 

How many would seriously get snapped up if offered to clubs? We certainly would not make a profit on any of them that we paid a fee for

 

 

 

 

[pgmetcalf]

We have a recent history (last 20 years) of signing good players and turn them into ordinary players at best 

[SallyCinnamon]

Substitute quality for pace if you don't have quality.

 

We currently have neither.

 

Also factor in the fitness levels, confidence levels, motivation of these group of players.

 

Jos may be poo but I'm willing to give him pre season provided we stay up. Regardless of manager we're gonna be in this division for a few more years.

[SallyCinnamon]

28 minutes ago, torres said:

 

I think we got away with absolute murder last season

 

There were countless games whereby we rode our luck to the extreme and somehow came out with 3 points.

 

Wigan both home and away - poorer team than Ipswich/Bolton

Birmingham at home - how did we win 3-0??

Blackburn both home and away - the goal for them that should have been but wasn't given

Even Rotherham both games

 

These were with most of the ''first team'' available.

 

We have carried on that slugglish way this season and the luck has ran out.

 

The manager is out of his depth i agree, but the players really are not up to much.

 

How many would seriously get snapped up if offered to clubs? We certainly would not make a profit on any of them that we paid a fee for

 

 

 

 

 

Agree with this too. How we finished 4th last year staggers me. We were dreadful and got away with it. 

[pgmetcalf]

5 minutes ago, SallyCinnamon said:

 

Agree with this too. How we finished 4th last year staggers me. We were dreadful and got away with it. 

 

And we would have gotten away with again if it weren’t for those pesky injuries 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by pgmetcalf

[Guest Xxxxxxxxcxcc]

Carlos's last 7 games showed that the wheels were coming off and he had Hutch, Lees, Bannan, Wallace, Van Aken and Hooper available for quite a few of those games IIRC and Lee for one or two. Jos admittedly had Wallace for his first few games.

 

Hutch, Bannan and Lees might well all be fit and ready after the international break; possibly FF too. I'm very confident that the value of those will be seen on their return and our fortunes will change.

 

Carlos is rightly gone and its now just a case of limping over the line this season. Jos should best be judged after a pre-season and his own squad after a summer of wheeling and dealing.

 

[Lord Snooty]

19 minutes ago, pgmetcalf said:

We have a recent history (last 20 years) of signing good players and turn them into ordinary players at best 

 

Names escape me. But seem to remember a spell where we signed players who had been Player or the year at their previous clubs then look terrible here. Mclaren. That Armstrong character. 

[SallyCinnamon]

Just now, Lord Snooty said:

 

Names escape me. But seem to remember a spell where we signed players who had been Player or the year at their previous clubs then look terrible here. Mclaren. That Armstrong character. 

 

Lloyd Owusu too. Adam Proudlock scored a hat-trick against us for Wolves, we signed him for near 1 million and he flopped. Stevie May prolific in Scotland came here and we ruined him. 

 

 

[Lord Snooty]

5 minutes ago, SallyCinnamon said:

 

Lloyd Owusu too. Adam Proudlock scored a hat-trick against us for Wolves, we signed him for near 1 million and he flopped. Stevie May prolific in Scotland came here and we ruined him. 

 

 

 

Jim Magilton player of the year at Southampton. Had skippered them. 

Comes to us. Not 50 games and off to Ipswich. To become their skipper.

 

Maybe we should spin the ground round a bit. It might be crossways on a layline. 

 

Id try anything!

[TheEnchanter]

I think people look at it way too simplistically. 

 

 

I genuinely believe most squads in this division could reach the play offs. IF they were under the right manager and right conditions physically and importantly mentally. Of course most of the time they aren't. The magic formula is hard to acheive and one of the only clubs I've seen keep up a really high level of performance for season on end is Burnley in recent history. 

[pgmetcalf]

7 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

Names escape me. But seem to remember a spell where we signed players who had been Player or the year at their previous clubs then look terrible here. Mclaren. That Armstrong character. 

 

 

Win Jonk, Bob the Builder, Hinchckiffe etc, there’s been many over the years. One or two good ones mind - Waddle, I actually groaned when we signed him because I was thinking back to his penalty miss in Italia 90. What a player, arguably the best form of his career playing for us

[Lord Snooty]

4 minutes ago, pgmetcalf said:

 

 

Win Jonk, Bob the Builder, Hinchckiffe etc, there’s been many over the years. One or two good ones mind - Waddle, I actually groaned when we signed him because I was thinking back to his penalty miss in Italia 90. What a player, arguably the best form of his career playing for us

 

Remember my uncle bemoaning the signing. £1m on a 30 year old was a lot ot money. No resale price etc etc. Especially because he running gait could appear to the outsider to make him look like he wasn't giving it the full gun.  

 

A few months into him being here another French club (name escapes me) wanted to take him back to France for £3m and my old uncle was going apoplectic at their cheek!

[room0035]

Our current squad of fit players should be fairing better than we are. I personally put this down to negative tactics being implemented by Jos. Yes we have injures but we are playing a 5-3-2 most of the time or 5-4-1 and then have defensive central midfielders 7 or 8 of the players on the pitch are defenders or playing in a defensive way.

 

Add to this someone has given them this insane notion to play out from the back when you only have 3 attackers on the pitch and surprise surprise we are conceding a lot of silly goals where we are allowing too much pressure on us. 

 

The ways to sort this and hopefully improve the points tally we have would be first to STOP PLAYING SO DEFENSIVELY, stop picking players that the chairman decide on and instead pick your strongest 11 players who are fit, then pick you bench with options.

 

So lets take the team Saturday

 

Dawson has been more consistent than Wildsmith and should have started, If we are playing a 4-4-2 Pelupessy should have played the holding role and Clare been more forward thinking, the only other issue I have with the team that started the game is Nuihu up front - I have seen snails with more speed and turn of pace. He is clearly carried too much weigh and looks like he is running in knee high mud so why is he starting instead of Rhodes he give us nothing because we don't play to his strength which at 8 ft tall should be high crosses into the box.

 

The bench was where we lost the game Saturday Jones defensive midfield, fox left back, Butterfield defensive midfield, Loovens Center back, Palmer right back, Dawson Keeper, Rhodes Striker. So if we got an injury anywhere in the back 4 we were covered but if we needed to change the game or attack other than putting Rhodes on and going 3 up front we had no options this might be why Jos waited until the 77 minute to make any changes. 

 

I here Abdi was not available because he had something in his eye sure beat his toe nails needing cutting but just sounds like yet another excuse, but where was Matias, Stobbs, Preston.

 

If we set the team up with 7 or 8 defenders I do not expect to see another 5 defenders or defensive midfielders on a bench of 7 players. Jos needs to improve quickly or find himself alternative employment. There are manager in league one currently who would be doing a better job with the player available. We have no games until Saturday i would suggest getting Palmer and Nuihu in the gym and get some of the extra weigh worked off they are carrying.

 

Then Reach and Boyd practicing crossing the ball as if you are going to play Nuihu then play to his strengths which is his height.

 

We need another 6 or 7 points to be safe and would prefer to get the in the next few games instead of praying that others continue to lose. 

 

  

[Spookone]

3 hours ago, @owlstalk said:

If you wrote our starting lineup on a piece of paper at the start of the season and asked where you thought it would finish in the Championship at the end of the season you'd say relegation

Let's not kid ourselves

As a team it's just not strong enough to compete

I wouldn’t have thought relegation, probably below halfway but not bottom 6.

[room0035]

16 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

Remember my uncle bemoaning the signing. £1m on a 30 year old was a lot ot money. No resale price etc etc. Especially because he running gait could appear to the outsider to make him look like he wasn't giving it the full gun.  

 

A few months into him being here another French club (name escapes me) wanted to take him back to France for £3m and my old uncle was going apoplectic at their cheek!

I seem to remember that bloke but didn't he have a champions league semi final on his cv, two world cups and 60+ appearance for his national side - As you may have guess i am not talking about Nuihu

 

I also seem to remember us signing a 35 year old center back who in two season played over 70 games for us and chipped in with 8 league goals or more goals than Nuihu and Lees have got between them in two season. Age should not be an issue if the players are fit and managed correctly but both of these players were managed by and English manager with experience of managing in the English league and also one that was able to play different formations. 

[ramone]

1 hour ago, pazowl55 said:

That's my point I don't remember anyone saying that that Stuart Grey side was the worst in the division and would easily get relegated. Grey had them fighting and grinding out results so we looked better then we actally were. Our team now is better then that. But Jos ain't got them grinding out results. so we instantly say the players ain't good enough. when they are more than good enough to win more than 1 game in 3 months.

Bang on the money Paz

[ramone]

1 hour ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

Oh the lack of reserve football does my block in also. Although, having said that, its probably a blessing currently as it would just be another route for players to get injured 

 

[i used to be sc_owl]

Our team on Saturday played as if they had just met at 14:55. 

 

Individually some decent/good players but all playing as individuals rather than a team. 

[ramone]

1 hour ago, torres said:

 

I think we got away with absolute murder last season

 

There were countless games whereby we rode our luck to the extreme and somehow came out with 3 points.

 

Wigan both home and away - poorer team than Ipswich/Bolton

Birmingham at home - how did we win 3-0??

Blackburn both home and away - the goal for them that should have been but wasn't given

Even Rotherham both games

 

These were with most of the ''first team'' available.

 

We have carried on that slugglish way this season and the luck has ran out.

 

The manager is out of his depth i agree, but the players really are not up to much.

 

How many would seriously get snapped up if offered to clubs? We certainly would not make a profit on any of them that we paid a fee for

 

 

 

 

Got away with murder over a 46 game season and finished 4th??.... Come on mate.

 

 

[ramone]

2 hours ago, prowl said:

I know what Ramone means even though I don't quite agree. Jos took over after CC had lost the plot and the dressing room. Stuart Gray took over after Dave Jones lost the plot and the dressing room. Gray took the side he inherited and found a way to stop losing and start picking up points. Gray had a first team to work with rather than a set of second teamers but they were generally speaking not a very good squad, he still found a way to grind out results. Jos hasn't quite had the same impact.

 

The reasons that I think explain the difference :-

 

When Gray took over we were a bottom of the league club, in or around the bottom, constantly fighting to avoid relegation. In recent years we have been battling for promotion, The mindset of the club is completely different

 

We had achieved promotion when Jones took over and the next year he had dismantled that team destroying the team spirit.. Gray took over and made the players believe they could be better, Jos took over a club that already believes it can succeed.

 

When Gray took over other clubs expected to beat us, he surprised them. Clubs raise their game when they play us, they expect more from us because of our success over the previous 2 seasons.

 

I don't know if Jos will be a great manager or a flop, let's give him a bit of time. As supporters we are very quick to pass negative judgements on players, they often win us over as they settle and develop. It may be the same happens with Jos.

Great post. 

 

Personally, I think Jos needs to change his attitude with the way he set ups the team. Start from scratch if he has to. But build the players up. Make them feel 10 feet tall. When teams change manager you usually see an upturn in results. Even Alan Irvine won 4 of his first 5 games. Even the worst players in the world give you more if you tell you them they're Maradona