'The players aren't good enough' - The Myth

[ramone]

1 minute ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

Well some of them have spent a season or 18 months being largely not involved.  They probably haven't felt a part of things. Suddenly they come in. They've got to be match fit and are expected to do a job that someone slightly better than them has better been doing. 

 

If it's one or two players.  You can mask that. Blag it.  When it's 6 or 7 it'll soon look like what it is. A team of half fit back up players with no confidence coming into a team on a bad run , with a frustrated fan base in the stands and the relegation trapdoor below. 

 

I doubt Derren  Brown could get much more from them never mind Jos. 

Only some of them though. You look at our starting 11 Saturday and i'd hardly say the majority of them of been kicking their heels for 18 months. 

 

Wildsmith - Had a decent run of games recently, shouldn't matter too much for a keeper

Hunt - Our first choice RB and has played a hefty amount of games in the last 18 months

Venancio - Was skipper at his last club so would assume he's played alot of football last season. Has been a regular in our team since December.

Lees - See Jack Hunt

Pudil - See Jack Hunt

Boyd - Regularly talked about as the fittest footballer on the planet (humerous exaggeration) and played 36 Prem games last season. 

Joey - See Venancio

Clare - Had regular loan spells in the last 18 months at Accrington and Gillingham. Young lad, fit as a fiddle

Reach - Practically an ever present at SWFC since signing

Joao - Fits your point well

Nuhiu - Fits your point well (but for good reason I might add... haha)

 

Granted, I know a lot of the players involvement in football haven't been at Wednesday so again, that backs up your statement but on the flip side, its not as if they've been sat doing naff all for 18 months.... 

[oldishowl]

How do you assess whether someone is a better player than someone else. Well in my eyes it can only be judged by the job they do on the pitch.

 

Managers like Warnock and McCarthy have made a living out of building sides with players who might not be first choice of others in ability terms but generally are strong in doing the basics of their job and have character, experience and bottle.

 

We simply haven’t done that, we brought players in after watching videos for god sake. Can you see Warnock buying Van Aken, a defender whose weakest element in his game is defending.

 

Pratley and Henry dominated our midfield on Saturday.

 

Atty had a chance in the second half on Saturday exactly the same as the headed equaliser that Wilbraham scored , Atty missed it.

Would you want Wilbraham in our team , probably not, but when he got his chance he did his job whereas ours didn’t.

[prowl]

I know what Ramone means even though I don't quite agree. Jos took over after CC had lost the plot and the dressing room. Stuart Gray took over after Dave Jones lost the plot and the dressing room. Gray took the side he inherited and found a way to stop losing and start picking up points. Gray had a first team to work with rather than a set of second teamers but they were generally speaking not a very good squad, he still found a way to grind out results. Jos hasn't quite had the same impact.

 

The reasons that I think explain the difference :-

 

When Gray took over we were a bottom of the league club, in or around the bottom, constantly fighting to avoid relegation. In recent years we have been battling for promotion, The mindset of the club is completely different

 

We had achieved promotion when Jones took over and the next year he had dismantled that team destroying the team spirit.. Gray took over and made the players believe they could be better, Jos took over a club that already believes it can succeed.

 

When Gray took over other clubs expected to beat us, he surprised them. Clubs raise their game when they play us, they expect more from us because of our success over the previous 2 seasons.

 

I don't know if Jos will be a great manager or a flop, let's give him a bit of time. As supporters we are very quick to pass negative judgements on players, they often win us over as they settle and develop. It may be the same happens with Jos.

[gurujuan]

Most our players aren’t good enough for a side aiming for promotion, including a few of those who are currently injured Agree with the OP, they should b good enough for a top half finish

[Matt_1]

3 minutes ago, ramone said:

Only some of them though. You look at our starting 11 Saturday and i'd hardly say the majority of them of been kicking their heels for 18 months. 

 

Wildsmith - Had a decent run of games recently, shouldn't matter too much for a keeper

Hunt - Our first choice RB and has played a hefty amount of games in the last 18 months

Venancio - Was skipper at his last club so would assume he's played alot of football last season. Has been a regular in our team since December.

Lees - See Jack Hunt

Pudil - See Jack Hunt

Boyd - Regularly talked about as the fittest footballer on the planet (humerous exaggeration) and played 36 Prem games last season. 

Joey - See Venancio

Clare - Had regular loan spells in the last 18 months at Accrington and Gillingham. Young lad, fit as a fiddle

Reach - Practically an ever present at SWFC since signing

Joao - Fits your point well

Nuhiu - Fits your point well (but for good reason I might add... haha)

 

Granted, I know a lot of the players involvement in football haven't been at Wednesday so again, that backs up your statement but on the flip side, its not as if they've been sat doing naff all for 18 months.... 

 

Now make a list of how many actual matchwinners we have available to us? How many players would get into any of the top 6 teams as it stands?

 

I'll make a list of the matchwinners who would walk into at least 1 team in the top 6, as it stands.

Forestieri

Bannan

Fletcher

Hooper

Lee

Westwood

 

That's it. Now you tell me, from your list, how many of those players are top 6 match winning standard.

 

I'm not talking about being able to play in a top 6 team.

 

I'm talking players who would displace the players the other top 6 teams currently have.

[ramone]

1 minute ago, Matt_1 said:

 

Now make a list of how many actual matchwinners we have available to us? How many players would get into any of the top 6 teams as it stands?

 

I'll make a list of the matchwinners who would walk into at least 1 team in the top 6, as it stands.

Forestieri

Bannan

Fletcher

Hooper

Lee

Westwood

 

That's it. Now you tell me, from your list, how many of those players are top 6 match winning standard.

 

I'm not talking about being able to play in a top 6 team.

 

I'm talking players who would displace the players the other top 6 teams currently have.

Mate, i've said earlier in the thread that this side wouldn't get into the top 6. I think you may be getting the wrong end of my stick here. Thats not the discussion here. The discussion here is the player ARE good enough to beat the likes of Ipswich and Bolton at home. I'm not asking them to get us int the play offs. I never have.

 

I'll answer your question though, none of the players get into any of the side in the top 6. But again, that wasn't the point i was making.  

[Mid Wicket]

35 minutes ago, ramone said:

Well the question i'd ask is why is Jos not setting the team up for Saturday with a mindset of 'THIS IS A BIG MATCH' - We're in a relegation fight!! We should have been well up for it in both games. Win both of them and you can practically have the rest of the season off. Thats my point. Both were massive games. 

We don't know what he is saying to them. IMO this looks a very unhappy bunch of players and has been before Carlos left these players as a team are just not good enough...results are showing us that and it's Bl***** frustrating

 

[pazowl55]

My opinion on it is that I can see both sides. Some of them bottom teams would snap your hand of for the likes of Reach Lees Wildsmith Pudil ( a very experienced international) Joao. The problem is I don't think Jos is getting the best out of them and giving them the the confidence to play well. It's not all down to him players have to take the responsibility themselves aswell.

Even the likes of Butterfield and Jones may be totally different players in a Burton or a Bolton side. But to say this team on paper is the worst in the league is a bit off for me. It's not a million miles of the Stuart grey team that didn't to badly.

 

[ramone]

1 minute ago, Jakes Grandad said:

We don't know what he is saying to them. IMO this looks a very unhappy bunch of players and has been before Carlos left these players as a team are just not good enough...results are showing us that and it's Bl***** frustrating

 

So you dont think the team are capable of beating Bolton and Ipswich at home? 

 

Carlos left in December, we're now in the middle of March. At what point do you stop blaming Carlos (which ludicrous by the way, in my opinion) and start questioning Jos. Remembering all the time that Jos' strengths are motivation and discipline. 

[WhiteOwl91]

46 minutes ago, ramone said:

Well the question i'd ask is why is Jos not setting the team up for Saturday with a mindset of 'THIS IS A BIG MATCH' - We're in a relegation fight!! We should have been well up for it in both games. Win both of them and you can practically have the rest of the season off. Thats my point. Both were massive games. 

I didn't see a lack of effort in those games though, so it's not just a case of being up for it. 

 

Our side didn't have the quality or confidence to create meaningful chances to deserve to win the game. 

 

Its not all down to effort otherwise burton wouldn't be in the bottom 3.

[ramone]

2 minutes ago, pazowl55 said:

My opinion on it is that I can see both sides. Some of them bottom teams would snap your hand of for the likes of Reach Lees Wildsmith Pudil ( a very experienced international) Joao. The problem is I don't think Jos is getting the best out of them and giving them the the confidence to play well. It's not all down to him players have to take the responsibility themselves aswell.

Even the likes of Butterfield and Jones may be totally different players in a Burton or a Bolton side. But to say this team on paper is the worst in the league is a bit off for me. It's not a million miles of the Stuart grey team that didn't to badly.

 

Great post. Lets compare that then... I'm not what side of Stuart Grays side you're saying we're not far off... 

 

Wildsmith                           Kirkland

Hunt                                   Vermij

Lees                                  Lees

Venancio                           Buxton

Pudil                                  Helan

Boyd                                  Lee

Joey                                   Semedo

Clare                                  Melo

Reach                                Maguire

Joao                                  Keane

Nuhiu                                 Lavery

 

The team on the left obviously started against Bolton and the team on the right was Stuart Grays final team selection in the 1-1 draw at Watford. Our team in Saturday, on paper, dwarfs it

 

[Mid Wicket]

Based on recent performances I did not think we could beat either. It's not ludicrous to blame the man who brought a lot of these players in. A lot of this side have been criticised for the last 2 season by supporters as not being good enough. We have no players in the current side who can create a chance. For heavens sake we all know Joao best running at defenders he got 2 opportunities to do that all game on Saturday one led to a goal. Our players were not creative enough to make enough chances to win.

[Guest Bulgaria]

Totally agree with the first post. 

The excuse that we are using reserves and kids for being in our current predicament is rather feeble.

 

The players Jos has available should be performing much better.

 

No one doubts we would be higher up the league with less injuries but the players available to Jos beat a very good Derby did they not?  This proves they can do it.

[torryowl]

4 minutes ago, Jakes Grandad said:

Based on recent performances I did not think we could beat either. It's not ludicrous to blame the man who brought a lot of these players in. A lot of this side have been criticised for the last 2 season by supporters as not being good enough. We have no players in the current side who can create a chance. For heavens sake we all know Joao best running at defenders he got 2 opportunities to do that all game on Saturday one led to a goal. Our players were not creative enough to make enough chances to win.

nail on the head with the not creative enough ..........I don't see though the criticism that  they  wernt good enough last season when they finished 4th .

[Guest Bulgaria]

i repeat... the players available...

Beat Derby

Went toe to toe with a resurgent Villa

Nearly beat Cardiff

Held Utd at the lane....

 

They are good enough if played and motivated properly.

[jonnyowl]

My cousin played for Billy Davis and said it didn't matter how poorly you played he'd always look for a positive from every player and made them feel like a world beater.

 

Confidence is massive on a football pitch. I think its more to do with the message from the manager, the atmosphere in the dressing room, confidence and whats between the ears than it is what you can do with the ball at your feet.

 

I still think with everyone fit, playing their best and with the right manager telling our players to go out their and play attacking football, we'd still have a very good chance of promotion next season.

 

It's just if everyone stays fit and whether Jos is going to play attacking football!

[Lord Snooty]

21 minutes ago, ramone said:

Only some of them though. You look at our starting 11 Saturday and i'd hardly say the majority of them of been kicking their heels for 18 months. 

 

Wildsmith -

He's done ok the lad. But he's a boy. As a keeper yourself I'm sure you'll be the first to admit you've gotten  better with experience. He's made some terrific saves but also made some clangers. It happens. Par for the course.  Especially in that position. I'll jot pull him on it. But I do believe the experience of Westwood would have given us another 5%. If not only in the confidence it brings to another back four having an experienced campaigner behind you barking orders.

 

Hunt -

I'd agree strongly that Hunt is ditsy choice right back.  But he's been clearly struggling with a  niggle since day one of the season. He ,use have been hooked in more games this year than any player I can remember since Mark Chamberlain.  He's been out a while and just come back in. But it'll take a while for him to be match sharp. Mentally as well as physically 

 

Venancio -

Fred is ok.  And he's had a decent run since Christmas. But there is an underlying reason he was brought in as back up. I'll not knock him. He's done ok. But for my money he's not any a step up on Sasso to be honest. We have to remember to that without the benefit of reserve football (another debate but one of my pet hates) this is the lad who spent 50% of the season in a gym in town on his Todd. 

 

Lees - 

A huge miss. I actuslly thought he was all but given the length of time hes been out we can't seriously expect him to come in and be on of the Championships top centre halves from a standing start. He's going to need two or three games to get up to speed. When he does that'll be another 5% towards making us a better side.  It all adds up.

 

Pudil -

Pudil had done all right. But...he's learning a new role after 17 years of playing on the left.  It's nearly two years ago since Brighton targeted him as the weak link in the back four. And Hull did much the same. It's not his fault. .thst he hasn't been replaced correctly. 

The move to centre half might extend his career but against the bigger more agricultural centre forwards I think he struggles. It's ago alien game and he's doing his best.

 

Boyd -

A lot of people have been bemoaning of late Boyds lack of pace.  I don't know if any of them had seen him at his other clubs but he's never been about pace. He's always been the stamina man hasn't he.

I mean look at his stats against Villa. He covered more than double any other player on the pitch.It is remarkable. But he's never been quick.  Here's another lad who, without making excuses has had a double shoulder operation after the first one didn't work. Then trained back to fitness and eventually got in the team...and been asked to play a completely new role after spending his entire life as a winger or number 10. He's not pulled any trees up. But again, the circumstances he's come into and, his new role and his injury hasn't helped.

 

Joey - 

I think with Joey he's just not a brilliant player. He's fit as an butchers dog.  But not a great footballer. He actually looks his best in the last 10 minutes of games when everyone else on the pitch is shagged out. That's when his ratting really comes into its own. I don't think he's not up for it though. Just not actually great player.

 

Clare -

He has had the loan spells. He's going to go missing in games though. Get outdone by some of the midfield bullies in the Championship.  He's actually decent kid and doing ok in a 3. Certainly can see why Jos wouldn't risk him in a 2 at this stage of his career though. He's been a positive but you can see there is a lot of development still needed. We can't expect too much too soon. And a relegation battle is the hardest place to learn. Not sure he'll be starting when Bannan and Hutchinson are fit. 

. 

Reach - 

Agree. Must be in for a shout for player of the year since Hooper and Bannan got inured. 

 

Joao - Fits your point well

I've been tying that long I think I've forgot what my point was!

But needless to say that if Joao had been starting week in week out the last 18 months he might really have come on by now and started full filling some of that potential we always new he had.

 

Nuhiu - 

Nuhiu is Nuhiu. He'll never score the goals required but he's always up for it and will never draw any fire from me whilever that is the case.  We know his weaknesses. The fact he's starting shows where we are probably better than any other factor. 

 

Granted, I know a lot of the players involvement in football haven't been at Wednesday so again, that backs up your statement but on the flip side, its not as if they've been sat doing naff all for 18 months.... 

Some of it is  near enough naff all though in the sesne that none of it is really high intensity Championship football. Allied to the fact that the lads have hardly been able to train with the fixture congestion and our injuries it all helps (Prob wrong choice of word) put us in the predicament we're currently in. 

 

As an aside ...the lack of a competitive reserve league really is something that gets my goat. Ok, it's not going to be Championship standard but it's something. It's regular football.  Where you can get your distances right. Practise your skills in an environment different to a 5 a side training session. Get used to the dimensions.  Ok....its not going to make average players world beaters but it'll help keep them sharper than sat in the gym.

 

[torres]

1 hour ago, @owlstalk said:

If you wrote our starting lineup on a piece of paper at the start of the season and asked where you thought it would finish in the Championship at the end of the season you'd say relegation

Let's not kid ourselves

As a team it's just not strong enough to compete

 

100% agree with this.

 

The players available since the new manager turned up just aren't good enough sadly. 

 

Some of the first 11's we've put out are not even first round of the league cup standard team selections

[Mid Wicket]

17 minutes ago, torryowl said:

nail on the head with the not creative enough ..........I don't see though the criticism that  they  wernt good enough last season when they finished 4th .

Few of these players were the ones that got us to 2 play offs 

[pazowl55]

29 minutes ago, ramone said:

Great post. Lets compare that then... I'm not what side of Stuart Grays side you're saying we're not far off... 

 

Wildsmith                           Kirkland

Hunt                                   Vermij

Lees                                  Lees

Venancio                           Buxton

Pudil                                  Helan

Boyd                                  Lee

Joey                                   Semedo

Clare                                  Melo

Reach                                Maguire

Joao                                  Keane

Nuhiu                                 Lavery

 

The team on the left obviously started against Bolton and the team on the right was Stuart Grays final team selection in the 1-1 draw at Watford. Our team in Saturday, on paper, dwarfs it

 

That's my point I don't remember anyone saying that that Stuart Grey side was the worst in the division and would easily get relegated. Grey had them fighting and grinding out results so we looked better then we actally were. Our team now is better then that. But Jos ain't got them grinding out results. so we instantly say the players ain't good enough. when they are more than good enough to win more than 1 game in 3 months.