Team for Next Season

[Past Member]

8 hours ago, Holmowl said:

Westy

 

Hunt Lees Loovens Reach

 

Wallace Lee Bannan Forestieri

 

Hooper Fletcher 

 

 

 

Hope Rhodes pushes his way past Hoops or Fletch. Winnall pushing hard too.

 

Sasso and Hutch fine cover at CB.

 

Hutch and Jones fine cover for CM.

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus Christ, that side is awful.

 

A back 4 of hunts reach, Lee's & loovens. Difficult to tell if you're on the wind up.

[s6 owl]

                   Westwood

 

           Hutch      Ayala     Lees            

             

   Odubajo   Williams      Lee

                                                     Sako/Lawrence

                              Abdi

           

                 Rhodes      Hooper 

             

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by s6 owl

[S36 OWL]

1 hour ago, Holmowl said:

 

All four we stupidly played 3 CMs. Horribly lop-sided play that stifled any ability to attack down both flanks.

 

Ipswich was Lee and Jones. Not Lee and Bannan.

 

Can you find a couple of Lee Bannan CM games where we played two wingers and it failed? I know one...PNE away last year, where we were nil-nil till we went down to ten men. Crap performance I agree, but I'm not suggesting we will win 46/46.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was always worried that once Lee and Hutch were both fit Carlos would go back to the bad old habit of playing three centre midfielders in a 4-4-2 . It dosnt work , never has , never will. As daft as it sounds we were better off when either Lee or Hutch were injured, because we played with a balanced midfield , which got us results. 

 

If he wants to play all three , he has to change the system . 

[Holmowl]

7 hours ago, zzmdu said:

 

Jesus Christ, that side is awful.

 

A back 4 of hunts reach, Lee's & loovens. Difficult to tell if you're on the wind up.

 

I can only assume you mean Reach should not be LB, given that the other 3 have been superb?

 

My logic is that neither Pudil nor Fox have been good enough consistently, and by playing Reach at LB it leaves the LW slot for Nando. Unlike an increasing number on here, I still want Nando in our team, but always at LW.

 

If we buy a quality LB great. Then Reach, Nando and Wallace to scrap for two wide places.

 

 

[Past Member]

2 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

 

I can only assume you mean Reach should not be LB, given that the other 3 have been superb?

 

My logic is that neither Pudil nor Fox have been good enough consistently, and by playing Reach at LB it leaves the LW slot for Nando. Unlike an increasing number on here, I still want Nando in our team, but always at LW.

 

If we buy a quality LB great. Then Reach, Nando and Wallace to scrap for two wide places.

 

 

 

We had no pace or width all season, which is why we very rarely get behind the opposites.

 

This needs to change.

[Holmowl]

3 minutes ago, zzmdu said:

 

We had no pace or width all season, which is why we very rarely get behind the opposites.

 

This needs to change.

 

No you are wrong imo.

 

What needed to change to keep our superb winning run going was nothing.

 

Sadly, Carlos changed 3 key players and completely messed up the team.

 

You can spend a very long time searching for the winning formula. We had it handed to us due to injuries then threw it away for our most important match.

 

Nando, Reach and Wallace are easily good enough. But we had Bannan and then Lee our winger on Wednesday! Go figure.

[robswfc]

Need pace and a bit more mental toughness. But would be mental to change too much after finishing 4th with a very good points total. I think it would help if we decide on a system and stick with it the whole season. Preferably one that other teams aren't used to playing against
 

[roundhayowl]

8 hours ago, No 2 is r nilsson said:

Agree with this, and I think Hutch himself thinks cb is his best position, but it leaves a real need for a general in the middle if Hutch isn't there. 

 

It does mate, but I honestly don't think that Hutch is the answer to that midfield general role. I still maintain that during those games where he did excel in the middle, we also played our worst football of the season (whilst riding our luck and somehow picking up points) and that the two were connected. Bannan is excellent on the ball and has a great brain, but his physical size is a disadvantage when he doesn't have the ball at his feet. A physically bigger, stronger CM who can tackle AND pass is what we need. Unfortunately, Abdi doesn't fit the bill for this either as from what I've seen a physical battle is not his cup of tea at all.

 

Also, people will probably kill me for saying this, but I think we have a ready-made excellent right back in Kieran Lee. This is where he started out and he knows the role well. He's fit enough to get up and down the wing and most importantly, he has a very good footballing brain - something our current right back doesn't have and never will do.

[StudentOwl]

I still don't see a solution... every time I think "Yes, that'd be good for next season", I realise we'd have to have a radical overhaul of one of the thirds of the pitch; either defense, midfield or attack.

 

Our midfield suit a formation which offers 3 CM's, our strikers need a front pairing, our defense (including fullbacks) are best in a 4. Personnel wise, we don't need a radical overhaul of the squad. But in terms of balance, I really think we do. It's horrible, but Lee, Bannan and Hutch just can't play in a midfield 2. I know Holmowl will disagree, but a CM pairing of Lee and Bannan is too easily physically outfought. They're also both very similar and tend to like to get forward, and that could leave us overexposed at the back, especially with our attacking fullbacks. Hutch as part of a midfield two and we get his partner isolated as we know how he likes to sit deep. So we either need to get rid/drop one (or both) of Lee and Baz, or we need to have a midfield 3. That's not even thinking about Abdi who's obviously best as part of some sort of central three. 

 

Our strikers just need a front pairing. I keep thinking how we could really easily have a 4-3-3 formation, with Forestieri on the left, Wallace (or ideally a new candidate ie Jota) on the right... but then who's the "lone" striker? Hooper needs a partner, Rhodes needs a partner... the only one that could realistically do it is Fletcher. And if we're playing with only one out-and-out striker, we don't need a striking pool of Fletch, Rhodes, Hooper, Winnall, Nuhiu, Joao and Hirst. So we'd have to get rid of three of those (underlined ideally)... but that still doesn't fix that fact that two-thirds of those striking options don't actually competently fulfill the role 4-3-3 requires. Hooper and/or Rhodes up front on their own would be almost cruel. 

 

If we go to something say a 5-3-2 (or 3-5-2 if you prefer), then we'll need to get two new CB's (Loovens could only be a backup central CB due to lack of mobility) and probably a new RB and LB. 

 

I'm glad I'm not having to try and figure out the best way forward, because I really really feel  we've left ourselves hamstrung by our recruitment over the last 12 months. All these players are great and would suit a certain system, but it's like the midfielders would suit one system and the strikers would suit a completely different one. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by StudentOwl

[Lord Snooty]

5 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

I still don't see a solution... every time I think "Yes, that'd be good for next season", I realise we'd have to have a radical overhaul of one of the thirds of the pitch; either defense, midfield or attack.

 

Our midfield suit a formation which offers 3 CM's, our strikers need a front pairing, our defense (including fullbacks) are best in a 4. Personnel wise, we don't need a radical overhaul of the squad. But in terms of balance, I really think we do. It's horrible, but Lee, Bannan and Hutch just can't play in a midfield 2. I know Holmowl will disagree, but a CM pairing of Lee and Bannan is too easily physically outfought. They're also both very similar and tend to like to get forward, and that could leave us overexposed at the back, especially with our attacking fullbacks. Hutch as part of a midfield two and we get his partner isolated as we know how he likes to sit deep. So we either need to get rid/drop one (or both) of Lee and Baz, or we need to have a midfield 3. That's not even thinking about Abdi who's obviously best as part of some sort of central three. 

 

Our strikers just need a front pairing. I keep thinking how we could really easily have a 4-3-3 formation, with Forestieri on the left, Wallace (or ideally a new candidate ie Jota) on the right... but then who's the "lone" striker? Hooper needs a partner, Rhodes needs a partner... the only one that could realistically do it is Fletcher. And if we're playing with only one out-and-out striker, we don't need a striking pool of Fletch, Rhodes, Hooper, Winnall, Nuhiu, Joao and Hirst. So we'd have to get rid of three of those (underlined ideally)... but that still doesn't fix that fact that two-thirds of those striking options don't actually competently fulfill the role 4-3-3 requires. Hooper and/or Rhodes up front on their own would be almost cruel. 

 

If we go to something say a 5-3-2 (or 3-5-2 if you prefer), then we'll need to get two new CB's (Loovens could only be a backup central CB due to lack of mobility) and probably a new RB and LB. 

 

I'm glad I'm not having to try and figure out the best way forward, because I really really feel  we've left ourselves hamstrung by our recruitment over the last 12 months. All these players are great and would suit a certain system, but it's like the midfielders would suit one system and the strikers would suit a completely different one. 

 

Excellent post and summing up.

Especially the bit on bold.

 

I genuinely thunk that if we keep the manager and persevere with rhe 442 then rather than signing 3,4 or 5 big name players on massive wages and having to go through the process of trying all the permutations we'd be better signing a young hungry player on his way up with the qualities needed rather tha  hoping star billing is the answer.

 

Irvine into midfield. Hutch centre back. And we'd not be far away.

 

[Ash77]

Assuming cc stays and we dont play proper wingers all season again i wouldnt waste having 4 virtual centre mids in midfield so would play 433/4312

 

Wwood

 

Hunt lees buy reach

 

 Lee hutch/buy bannan/buy

 

           Ff (free role)

 

    Hooper rhodes

 

We will still need a winger or 2 to bring on for a plan b, no wingers or pace in the 18 was suicidal by cc, hudds brought a winger on who quickly beat pudil for an assist.

 

We also need a box to box cm to compete/cover lee/bannan and not sure jones is up to covering hutch or abdi will have the legs for 90mins.

 

If 442

 

Wwood

 

Hunt lees hutch/buy reach

 

Ff lee bannan/buy buy

 

     Hooper rhodes

 

Minimum of a cb, cm and pacy winger or 2 imo

 

 

[Holmowl]

13 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

I still don't see a solution... every time I think "Yes, that'd be good for next season", I realise we'd have to have a radical overhaul of one of the thirds of the pitch; either defense, midfield or attack.

 

Our midfield suit a formation which offers 3 CM's, our strikers need a front pairing, our defense (including fullbacks) are best in a 4. Personnel wise, we don't need a radical overhaul of the squad. But in terms of balance, I really think we do. It's horrible, but Lee, Bannan and Hutch just can't play in a midfield 2. I know Holmowl will disagree, but a CM pairing of Lee and Bannan is too easily physically outfought. They're also both very similar and tend to like to get forward, and that could leave us overexposed at the back, especially with our attacking fullbacks. Hutch as part of a midfield two and we get his partner isolated as we know how he likes to sit deep. So we either need to get rid/drop one (or both) of Lee and Baz, or we need to have a midfield 3. That's not even thinking about Abdi who's obviously best as part of some sort of central three. 

 

Our strikers just need a front pairing. I keep thinking how we could really easily have a 4-3-3 formation, with Forestieri on the left, Wallace (or ideally a new candidate ie Jota) on the right... but then who's the "lone" striker? Hooper needs a partner, Rhodes needs a partner... the only one that could realistically do it is Fletcher. And if we're playing with only one out-and-out striker, we don't need a striking pool of Fletch, Rhodes, Hooper, Winnall, Nuhiu, Joao and Hirst. So we'd have to get rid of three of those (underlined ideally)... but that still doesn't fix that fact that two-thirds of those striking options don't actually competently fulfill the role 4-3-3 requires. Hooper and/or Rhodes up front on their own would be almost cruel. 

 

If we go to something say a 5-3-2 (or 3-5-2 if you prefer), then we'll need to get two new CB's (Loovens could only be a backup central CB due to lack of mobility) and probably a new RB and LB. 

 

I'm glad I'm not having to try and figure out the best way forward, because I really really feel  we've left ourselves hamstrung by our recruitment over the last 12 months. All these players are great and would suit a certain system, but it's like the midfielders would suit one system and the strikers would suit a completely different one. 

 

Great post.

 

Fletcher - I agree he is the only one we have who can play the lone-striker, but dont you agree he has been far more successful, and the team has been far more successful, when he had a proper strike partner?

 

And do we need to switch systems? What did you see in the 442 with 2 CMs, 2 CFs and two wingers, for those six recent wins, that you didnt think was sustainable over a season? Neither Bannan-Lee nor Bannan-Jones got overrun during three tough homes and three tough aways.

[StudentOwl]

                      Westwood

 

Hunt          Lees        Hutch/Sasso   Fox/NEW  

 

                  Lee         NEW

Jota                                                Forestieri

                       Hooper      

                       Rhodes         

 

 

Wildsmith, Loovens, Hutch/Sasso, Pudil, Palmer, Jones, Bannan, Abdi, Wallace, Reach, NEW PACEY (actually sincerely pacey) RIGHT FOOTED WINGER, Fletcher, Winnall    to make up the bench and reserve players

Dawson and Hirst loaned out to half-decent League One side for game time and to see what they're made of

 

Only reason I'm considering Hutch/Sasso in CB is because I'm tired of our lethargic defensive distribution. Lees' isn't awful at it, but it can be very "Championship" standard at times, and Hutch can ping a ball while Sasso can actually carry the ball out of defense better than most CB's at this level. Only issue with this side is that it once again lacks raw pace... Forestieri isn't slow (and I wouldn't call Jota slow either), but neither would be considered "rapid" or "pacy". 

[Dagmeister]

CC didn't seem to fancy playing Rhodes alongside Fletcher. I'd be interested to know why.

[Ryan1980]

                     Westwood

smith(hud) lees hutch taylor(Leed)

 

jota(Brent) bannan lee forestieri    

                Hooper

                           Rhodes

[StudentOwl]

5 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

And do we need to switch systems? What did you see in the 442 with 2 CMs, 2 CFs and two wingers, for those six recent wins, that you didnt think was sustainable over a season? Neither Bannan-Lee nor Bannan-Jones got overrun during three tough homes and three tough aways.

I think over the course of a season, if we're going to go with 4-4-2, we need to have wide players that really, really like to attack and get forward and then subsequently have the central midfield pair sit a bit more to compensate for their bombing forward. 

If that's the case, I just can't see Lee and Bannan working for a sustained period of time as they both like to get forward a lot. I'm not saying we need to switch systems from 4-4-2 per se, but if this really is the way forward we need to carefully consider personnel involved. For instance, I'd get rid of Abdi straight off the bat and bring in another CM that's used to playing in a midfield two instead... one that will usurp either Lee or Bannan and has a bit of meat on his bones. 

[robswfc]

28 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

I still don't see a solution... every time I think "Yes, that'd be good for next season", I realise we'd have to have a radical overhaul of one of the thirds of the pitch; either defense, midfield or attack.

 

Our midfield suit a formation which offers 3 CM's, our strikers need a front pairing, our defense (including fullbacks) are best in a 4. Personnel wise, we don't need a radical overhaul of the squad. But in terms of balance, I really think we do. It's horrible, but Lee, Bannan and Hutch just can't play in a midfield 2. I know Holmowl will disagree, but a CM pairing of Lee and Bannan is too easily physically outfought. They're also both very similar and tend to like to get forward, and that could leave us overexposed at the back, especially with our attacking fullbacks. Hutch as part of a midfield two and we get his partner isolated as we know how he likes to sit deep. So we either need to get rid/drop one (or both) of Lee and Baz, or we need to have a midfield 3. That's not even thinking about Abdi who's obviously best as part of some sort of central three. 

 

Our strikers just need a front pairing. I keep thinking how we could really easily have a 4-3-3 formation, with Forestieri on the left, Wallace (or ideally a new candidate ie Jota) on the right... but then who's the "lone" striker? Hooper needs a partner, Rhodes needs a partner... the only one that could realistically do it is Fletcher. And if we're playing with only one out-and-out striker, we don't need a striking pool of Fletch, Rhodes, Hooper, Winnall, Nuhiu, Joao and Hirst. So we'd have to get rid of three of those (underlined ideally)... but that still doesn't fix that fact that two-thirds of those striking options don't actually competently fulfill the role 4-3-3 requires. Hooper and/or Rhodes up front on their own would be almost cruel. 

 

If we go to something say a 5-3-2 (or 3-5-2 if you prefer), then we'll need to get two new CB's (Loovens could only be a backup central CB due to lack of mobility) and probably a new RB and LB. 

 

I'm glad I'm not having to try and figure out the best way forward, because I really really feel  we've left ourselves hamstrung by our recruitment over the last 12 months. All these players are great and would suit a certain system, but it's like the midfielders would suit one system and the strikers would suit a completely different one. 

I think you overstate the importance of formation to how we normally set up.

Carlos likes to play a fluid system where the players cover certain areas of the pitch and the attacking players don't have strict positions. So its more about players understanding each other well and reading each others movements.

Its a really effective approach when it works because its much harder for the opposites to work out what's going to happen next, and allows players more freedom to react to where the ball is on the pitch. But if the players don't read each other well enough then it will lead to moves breaking down easily. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by robswfc

[Road Runner]

Kieran Westwood

 

Tommy Smith

Tom Lees

Grant Hanley

Scott Malone

 

Ross Wallace

Kieran Lee

Sam Hutchinson

Rajiv Van la Parra

 

Jordan Rhodes 

Gary Hooper

 

 

Bench:

John Ruddy

Vincent Sasso

Daniel Pudil

Izzy Brown

Barry Bannan

Fernando Forestieri

Steven Fletcher/Sam Winnall 

 

 

Manager: David Wagner or Carlos if he gets back to attacking teams and not 89 mins of defending a 0-0 lead.

[Lord Snooty]

26 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

 

And do we need to switch systems? What did you see in the 442 with 2 CMs, 2 CFs and two wingers, for those six recent wins, that you didnt think was sustainable over a season? Neither Bannan-Lee nor Bannan-Jones got overrun during three tough homes and three tough aways.

 

17 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

 

If that's the case, I just can't see Lee and Bannan working for a sustained period of time as they both like to get forward a lot. I'm not saying we need to switch systems from 4-4-2 per se, but if this really is the way forward we need to carefully consider personnel involved. For instance, I'd get rid of Abdi straight off the bat and bring in another CM that's used to playing in a midfield two instead... one that will usurp either Lee or Bannan and has a bit of meat on his bones. 

 

For me the issue with regards Bannan and Lee in midfield is that over a longer run if games it is an incredible strain with  the work load against a three. Unless you have a freak of nature like N'Golo Kanté! Of course I know that over a season you can rest players etc.  

The other thing is the wide players have also been doing an incredible amount of defensive tracking, covering, tucking in, cutting out angles. And this has led to them being accused of not doing their jobs which people think is just waiting on the touchline for the ball, beating a man and putting a cross in! 

There's many threads on here where people are demanding two flying wingers. 

 

The truth is though that Wallace et tal can put crosses in. Home game early in the season. (Got Bristol in my head) Wallace, by accident or design Wallace kept popping up on the left and put a serious of absolutely superb crosses and cute passes into the box ( a lot from the left!) But we were chasing down a deficit so he was allowed to do that. Usually they aren't given that licence.

  

 

Secondly. Bannan has taken some real pelters this season (and I hold my hands up. I have been frustrated he hasn't hit last seasons heights) but I do think that part of the issue has been that he's been having to drop back and receive the ball from the defence . I find that hugely, hugely frustrating  as I'm sure the player does to be honest when one of your best assess in midfield is dropping 30 yards down the pitch to take a 1 yard pass off a centre half. 

 

As for the team next season. As i mentioned in another thread, I hope we going looking for players of the right fit.  Players who bring the right tools for the job rather than a 'name'.  

[lee81]

 

Play a 433 to get the most out of our two best players in FF and Abdi.

Sign a proper CDM to allow hutch to play in his best position.

Sign a RW with pace. 

If finances allow upgrade both full backs.