Guest insideowl Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Who says I'm thinking it couldn't? But there are plenty of people being very definite about the opposite. One example, in response to the suggestion that Jones be safe until Christmas, was that we would be 15 points behind by then. Pure fantasy by a misery fulfilling his own prophecies for his own issues of self-worth. When Irvine's and Laws' tenures were coming to their end the lack of hope was palpable. I don't get that kind of sense at the moment with Jones. As for the number of points expected - who cares? I refused to get involved with all that anyway as I recognised from the outset that it would be pure guesswork, especially given the large turnover of players. Such predictions are meaningless and do not deal with the here and now. This is not a computer game where random and sweeping decisions can be easily made with little serious consequence. A much more measured approach is necessary. Although I agree, it's a forum. Every thread on this site is pointless. It's pointless yours and my view. Pointless people's opinion on the team, transfers etc. The point I'm trying to make is, Dave jones has not been good enough this season from signings to formations and team selections to pre season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest insideowl Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I disagree with the time to go. I feel all we are lacking is a finisher and someone with a better delivery than Antonio. He has made good signings and he's obviously took a few risks with signings. He worked wonders with Cardiff with no budget. And when your a club like us who isn't looking for instant success with an average budget you have to bide time with your manager. Do you need a budget when you have players like Ramsey and Ledley coming through. He had a strong team at Cardiff and should have got promoted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest arobert Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Over time I have read DJ Mortimer's posts and always felt they made good sense. So I was disappointred in his response to my question as part opf a conclusion that it was time for Jones to go: "Apart from Kirkland name a player out of the 14 acquisions who has significantly improved the side?" That being the case, what would a new manager be able to achieve with them? Are you advocating, and do you expect, more wholesale changes in a squad that is already bloated by a significant amount of wastage? Some people are so free and easy with the cliches and accepted wisdom they don't even think about what they are saying. Well, I was not being "free and easy" and I seriously think that the agenda in the summer had to be quality not quantity. I believe we needed 4/5 real quality players to supplement the League One squad and one of these needed to be a proven goal scorer at this level. I remember Howard Wilkinson saying on promotion to the top division in 1983, "We have only a finite sum of money to spend so we must spend it very wisely" He was so right in my view but Dave Jones took a different course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReadingOwl Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 He was so right in my view but Dave Jones took a different course. With hindsight of course, our recruitment this summer does seem very Irvinesque. Worrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danblakemore Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 His saving grace has been the following: Lack of replacement The Leeds shame The positive performances, although i've said this before, play well and lose every week = relelgation paly crap and win every week = promotion (ask Sheff Utd) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euse Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 The number of people pinning everything on the next two games is quite staggering. No moderation, no subtlety, no appraisal. I appreciate that a lousy run has put us in this position but to essentially throw the future of the club up into the air and hope that luck sees you through is breathtaking in it's lack of pragmatism. It's thinking so lacking in complexity that a four year old could just as easily be chairman. I love it how it has to be complex to make sense. It's pretty simple, football is a results based business. I know full well it's not like the good old days when we'd have this type of run and nobody would bat an eyelid, but we're in 2012 and if recent history was to tell us anything, it's that no win in 10 games is shocking & needs to be addressed quickly before we get relegated. I personally don't see what's so hard to comprehend of the chairman thinking 'right, in 10 games we've not won a single match and have only drawn 2, if we don't win the next two games (baring in mind we play bottom & 3rd bottom) then we need a change of manager. Fresh ideas & a new enthusiasm to bring into the squad to get us out of the bottom 3'. Obviously you have a difference of opinion, which I understand and respect, but it's very narrow minded of you to criticise / question other people's VERY RATIONAL POV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 So far, our summer business has been pretty underwhelming. But if the players really are that bad what good would a change of manager do? It would be useless without another large influx that is rather unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesteel Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 The number of people pinning everything on the next two games is quite staggering. No moderation, no subtlety, no appraisal. I appreciate that a lousy run has put us in this position but to essentially throw the future of the club up into the air and hope that luck sees you through is breathtaking in it's lack of pragmatism. It's thinking so lacking in complexity that a four year old could just as easily be chairman. If you look at it statiscally yes, as you like to do. I'm thinking psycologically. We wont be done for mathematically if we lose these next two away games. But I think it would be a massive gut punch to everyone at the club, fans, manager and players etc. These sort of things cant be taken into account statistically but they do play a huge part during a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReadingOwl Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 So far, our summer business has been pretty underwhelming. But if the players really are that bad what good would a change of manager do? It would be useless without another large influx that is rather unlikely. This is true. Also very worrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I love it how it has to be complex to make sense. It's pretty simple, football is a results based business. I know full well it's not like the good old days when we'd have this type of run and nobody would bat an eyelid, but we're in 2012 and if recent history was to tell us anything, it's that no win in 10 games is shocking & needs to be addressed quickly before we get relegated. I personally don't see what's so hard to comprehend of the chairman thinking 'right, in 10 games we've not won a single match and have only drawn 2, if we don't win the next two games (baring in mind we play bottom & 3rd bottom) then we need a change of manager. Fresh ideas & a new enthusiasm to bring into the squad to get us out of the bottom 3'. Obviously you have a difference of opinion, which I understand and respect, but it's very narrow minded of you to criticise / question other people's VERY RATIONAL POV. Would you bet your life on the outcome of the next two Manchester United games (which is about as close as you can get to a sure thing in the game)? Of course you wouldn't. There's just too much chance and circumstance at work. Think about the billions of potentials in even a single game. A chairman, manager and players can NEVER control it, they can only influence it. A win or else ultimatum is only slightly more sensible than throwing a coin to decide. The fact that people can't grasp this rather basic premise clearly demonstrates the detachment between their perceptions and anything approaching realism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 If you look at it statiscally yes, as you like to do. I'm thinking psycologically. We wont be done for mathematically if we lose these next two away games. But I think it would be a massive gut punch to everyone at the club, fans, manager and players etc. These sort of things cant be taken into account statistically but they do play a huge part during a season. I take the point but there is a very long way still to go and only a small gap to be made up. Hysteria solves nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesteel Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 So far, our summer business has been pretty underwhelming. But if the players really are that bad what good would a change of manager do? It would be useless without another large influx that is rather unlikely. DJ has perhaps already done what any new manager would do i.e. make us tighter and dropped his preferred philosophy of open attacking football in 4-4-2. I dont think an overhaul is needed, but DJ needs something more in midfield, to make that final ball count. The players are clearly responding (or trying) to DJ at the moment and as such there is no point in sacking him just yet. But if we continue to lose I think that may change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euse Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Would you bet your life on the outcome of the next two Manchester United games (which is about as close as you can get to a sure thing in the game)? Of course you wouldn't. There's just too much chance and circumstance at work. Think about the billions of potentials in even a single game. A chairman, manager and players can NEVER control it, they can only influence it. A win or else ultimatum is only slightly more sensible than throwing a coin to decide. The fact that people can't grasp this rather basic premise clearly demonstrates the detachment between their perceptions and anything approaching realism. I think it is totally with reality. I can't believe you actually put Manchester United in this equation, so let's look at it this way .... If you're a salesman, and you completely outsell everyone in a year & get loads of awards n bonuses etc, you'd rightly get all the praise & extra money you deserve. Say the next year, you start of a bit shacky, start losing certain orders / contracts, but still manage to hit the targets set, no harm done. But then all of a sudden, month after month (let's say 10), you consistently fail to meet your targets and you start to cost the company money by being employed there & not generating enough revenue to justify your existence there. If I was the manager, I'd fully expect them to sit that sales person down & say something along the lines of ' you've had a terrible run of not hitting your targets, the next 2 months provide you with our busiest months of the year (going on past experience, of course) & if you don't hit your targets, I have no option but to sack you'. What's wrong or illogical with that ? Obviously it's not football related, but I think it draws parallels with DJ's situation. If he keeps the guy on, regardless of how he did last year, he'd be consistently costing the company money whereas someone else might do a better job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlsfaninNorway Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 How can we get 4 points from 2 games and not win ? Need spectacles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I think it is totally with reality. I can't believe you actually put Manchester United in this equation, It's a lazy cliche to ridicule the mention of Messi or Manchester United without further contemplation. The point is perfectly valid. If you can't reliably predict the next two results for the team that has dominated the last 20 years then how can you do it for anyone much less talented or consistent? People are of course free to be deeply concerned about transfers, formations, tactics, positions, substitutions, press conferences and the like. If there is a cogent analysis that earnestly believes that a change of manager can improve our fortunes then I'm happy to hear it. But this 'win the next two games or else' is the philosophy of the damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pops55 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Did you read it again? And then still get it wrong? One win, one draw = 4 points = not won both :tango: wee pipe head alert, sorry senwar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
senwar Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 :tango: wee pipe head alert, sorry senwar. - no worries Wasn't sure if taking the p or what you see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SW1992 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 people saying he has brought in too many players, he should go. we give him the ol' boot then a new manager brings in new players and we have 14+ whatever he has brought in so we just arent winning. I say keep Jones for the season and let him work with the squad he has assembled becasue solidarity is what makes people work when they are working with familiar surroundings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euse Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 It's a lazy cliche to ridicule the mention of Messi or Manchester United without further contemplation. The point is perfectly valid. If you can't reliably predict the next two results for the team that has dominated the last 20 years then how can you do it for anyone much less talented or consistent? People are of course free to be deeply concerned about transfers, formations, tactics, positions, substitutions, press conferences and the like. If there is a cogent analysis that earnestly believes that a change of manager can improve our fortunes then I'm happy to hear it. But this 'win the next two games or else' is the philosophy of the damned. What about the parallel example I gave that you didn't quote - did you not think it made sense and has resembles our / Dave Jones' situation ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royalowlisback Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I take the point but there is a very long way still to go and only a small gap to be made up. Hysteria solves nothing. It worked for Def Leppard, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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