So whose fault is it really?

[RobHowe]

I agree that we got promoted and won the Rumbelows cup the next season. But the relentless flow of negative press ever since has had to have had some effect on the club. The other week against United 36K was the maximum they would let into Hilsborough, when the capacity is 40K.

I'm not sure that has anything to do with the Hillsborough disaster though.

We had 50K against United in 1980/81, without all this stupid segragation and very few arrests. To me there is a very dark cloud hanging over Hilsborough and partly because of the disaster, the rest due to poor management decisions at every level.

But football has changed massively since the early 80's.

And as much as we might think we'd like it, I don't believe an unsegrated local derby would be a good idea.

However I would agree that there is and has been a dark cloud hanging over Hillsborough for many, many years. - but I think that's done almost entirely to the mis-management of the club from the mid-90's onwards.

[Jim]

You could go on until the cows come home about events in the past leading up to where we are now:-

Atkinson going to Villa (If he'd stayed who knows what we might gone on and achieved)

Not winning at least one of the Cup Finals in 93 (If this had happened, Francis might have hung on to experienced and established players a bit longer instead of getting rid and buying complete and utter poo like Pearce, Atherton and Nolan to name but three)

Richards deciding to get rid of Atkinson in his 2nd spell as manager and appointing probably the worst Manager I've ever seen at S6, Danny Wilson. (To get rid of your most successfull manger in recent years and replace him with someone who had just taken a team down from the Prem. was madness)

Richards and Wilson seemingly hanging Paolo Di Canio out to dry after the infamous Allcock shove (Absolute madness not backing your best player when he needed supporting. If he'd had the backing he was due he may well have gone on to have the success at S6 that he had at West Ham where he's regarded as an absolute Legend)

Not sacking Wilson after the 8-0 defeat at Newcastle (That's when he should've gone and if he had we probably would've had a better chance of staying up?)

Appointing a succession of rubbish mangers after relagation from the Prem. (I think it's fair to say we've gone for the cheap option most of the time since relegation from the Prem. and it's cost us big time. The only manager during this period for me able to hold his head up high is Paul Sturrock though Chris Turner left us with a better squad than he initially inherited)

Now on to this season, where do we start?

Laws not acting quickly enough to get a striker in, Strafford leaving it arguably too late to sack Laws and then in my opinion missing an opportunity to make a statement with a significant managerial appointment that could've galvanised the players and supporters into thinking that we could make significant strides forward. For me there's similarities between Danny Wilson's appointment with the appointment of Alan Irvine. Wilson was the wrong appointment at the time and I think Irvine's appointment could well prove to be a mistake.

We must've fought relegation in at least 10 Seasons in the last 15 years? and the club still seem to me to not be able to learn from their past mistakes? I'll be there next season as I've renewed my ST but I don't see things changing for the better unless someone chucks the deckchairs off the Titanic for once rather than continue to re-shuffle them about.

[Guest anstonowls]

I'm not sure that has anything to do with the Hillsborough disaster though.

But football has changed massively since the early 80's.

And as much as we might think we'd like it, I don't believe an unsegrated local derby would be a good idea.

However I would agree that there is and has been a dark cloud hanging over Hillsborough for many, many years. - but I think that's done almost entirely to the mis-management of the club from the mid-90's onwards.

I find it rather sad that Wednesday and United fans aren't allowed to mix in the main stands at Hilsborough and Bramall Lane. It makes me feel ashamed to say I come from Sheffield.

[Aingarth]

Interesting stand point. As you are a shareholder, you are entitled to comment on performance. As a matter of interest can you comment honestly on three points:

1. When you looked at the squad at the start of this campaign would you have predicted such abysmal on field performances leading to a disasterous outcome?

2. Given the opportunity to run the club differently, what are the headline changes you would have made (obviously the achievable changes here)?

3. The tone of your summary indicates that you want Strafford out, am I correct in this assumption? if so who do you see replacing him (either a name or a summary of the type of person).

There have been some good comments on this thread and some stupid ones. those who accuse me of paranoia had maybe better look in the mirror first.

In answer to your questions:-

1 I believed that last year's squad had the potential, with a few extras in the close season, to get a top 8 finish, possibly missing the play-offs. Buying Purse seems to have upset everything, Woods in particular but also Tudgay and Spurr (unless signing a contract made them stop trying). I was not wishing that we had replaced Laws last summer and very few supporters were. What has happened this season is a shock.

2 I believe that the focus for this season had to be on firstly, the squad and football and secondly on achieving investment in the club and third possibly improving our existing facilities which, certainly in my stand the north, are 20 years out of date. I may turn out to be proved wrong but the emphasis appears to have been on other things, the world cup, a 44k stadium and developing the Leppings Lane stand into a teaching and educational centre. If all that can be done with 'new' money or grants or the focus gets us the investment we need, then fine. At the moment I fear it has been an unnecessary diversion. We are a football club, not a school, we can't fill 40,000 seats and a half empty Hillsborough is deadly so why do we need a bigger stadium just so we can host three world cup matches and we needed the investment in time to improve the team and avoid the current position. If the news is that the investment is coming now, I do ask why it could have not been organised a bit faster as I am sure the investors, if genuine, would have wished to avoid the nightmare we are currently in.

3 I am not calling for LS to be out. None of us actually know if he intends to stay long term. He is doing the job for free and he is well-off personally but not rich so he can't do that indefinately. He has no shares - unusual for a Chairman. I agree with many of the posters that the problems started a long time ago - back to sacking Francis but with not a clue how to get someone better. Appointing Pleat. Getting Ron Atkinson back, letting him choose to work without a contract and then sacking him when he was going to bring Nigel Pearson in as No 2. Some horribly expensive and disastrous player signings and managerial appointments. The re-issue of the shares which raised £17m through the Carterhouse investment - all spent and completely wasted and much more but to no good effect. DA upsetting many of the fan base. None of this is LS fault. My only point about LS is that he does have to share a small part of the blame - possibly 10%. Having got to where we were because of other peoples' mistakes - DR, DA and board members, managers and some players, I would have wanted to see what I have very briefly summarised in 2 above. I think his Children's Hospital move was a masterstroke, I think the card entry is an improvement but there is more hype about improvements off the field than substance and he does seem to like to rub up the fans the wrong way - after DA, that's crazy. I don't know yet about AI. After a good month, I am not sure that we are doing anything much better than under BL except that Purse is playing much better, although still not very good. I know the stats show that he is - but not compared with BL stats last season

It a complex topic and what should be done now is the most important question. Many posters will pick on one point in whatever is said and slate you for that point. this response is very short but needs to at least be read together.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Andrew Robinson

[Aingarth]

there is no use passing a football to someone who can't control it, and a serious number of our players cannot control one, in recent weeks we've seen the midfield / crossfield ball on a number of occasions, i don't think i've seen one that hasn't been cut out or the reciever put under immense pressure because he hasn't controlled it. Arsenal have a footballing side, and they can afford one, but, they've won nothing, and everyone who knows anything about football knows how to stop them. We need to get the basics right first, we need FIt players, we need PASSIONATE players, we need players who want TO WEAR OUR SHIRT, they need to be FAST and STRONG...and when we get them, then we can talk about passing...the only thing on our present players minds should be AVOIDING RELEGATION, not passing a football, we will not learn them to do in a couple of days what they've failed to learn in 20 years...to control, pass, and MOVE...

I only agree with you partly. We have players who were capable of passing and receiving last season but not this - why is that? When I see Grant hoof the ball almost into the opposition penalty area for either their goalie or a defender to do the same back and then our defender to clear to their defender who then passes through the midfield and we have lost all the initiative, then maybe once we should pass. And I know that on the rare occasions that Grant throws the ball, for example against Watford to Tommy Spurr on two occasions, Tommy has made a right **** of it. I agree that the long ball, "lets prevent relegation" can work if the players are committed and told to attack - at the moment, that's not happening either! Oh for a young John Sheridan at the top of his game. I am not expecting us to win anything other than avoid total disaster.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Andrew Robinson

[Belfast Owl 2]

It's Strafford's fault. He is responsible for appointing a poor manager. Folk around here can blame Brian Laws until they are blue in the face but it wont make them anymore correct. Irvine was a poor appointment then and it has been proven by results over the months since.

Strafford can blame the fans all he likes. He'll especially blame fans like me who dare to question his methods. Doubtless he will, but the truth is that it is him who is running the club and making the decisions and the ironic twist is that the better off fans would probably be putting more of their hard earned in if they didn't keep getting insulted by him, I know I would.

If its not Laws fault at all are you arguing he left us in a good position? I would say he didn't but are you going to prove me wrong? And Irvine has certainly not set the world on fire but its too early to judge him fully. I find it incredulous you heap so much blame on him yet absolve Laws.

How exactly is Strafford blaming the fans. It seems people peddle this viewpoint but like yourself don't back it up. He is encouraging fans to come and is trying to get them to invest in their club. What he is saying is true and maybe people don't like the cold hard truth. Yet somehow its construed that he is blaming the fans for this position. At least he is promoting a culture where he wants fans involved and I see an enthusiastic message being twisted. To counter this his style can be abrasive but he is only giving it back. He'll make mistakes and that post Sflaphorpe interview was maybe an example of that. Although he did praise the fans after the pigs match there didn't he.

Our season has fallen apart on the pitch and are you not ready to blame the players for it.

This smacks of another hit and run post George although you do know better than us ( or at least your financial mates do.)

[Sonny]

I am not commenting on this subject again...

those who accuse me of paranoia had maybe better look in the mirror first.

SSShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Why's that then Andrew, how am I paranoid?

[chilvinho]

There have been some good comments on this thread and some stupid ones. those who accuse me of paranoia had maybe better look in the mirror first.

In answer to your questions:-

1 I believed that last year's squad had the potential, with a few extras in the close season, to get a top 8 finish, possibly missing the play-offs. Buying Purse seems to have upset everything, Woods in particular but also Tudgay and Spurr (unless signing a contract made them stop trying). I was not wishing that we had replaced Laws last summer and very few supporters were. What has happened this season is a shock.

2 I believe that the focus for this season had to be on firstly, the squad and football and secondly on achieving investment in the club and third possibly improving our existing facilities which, certainly in my stand the north, are 20 years out of date. I may turn out to be proved wrong but the emphasis appears to have been on other things, the world cup, a 44k stadium and developing the Leppings Lane stand into a teaching and educational centre. If all that can be done with 'new' money or grants or the focus gets us the investment we need, then fine. At the moment I fear it has been an unnecessary diversion. We are a football club, not a school, we can't fill 40,000 seats and a half empty Hillsborough is deadly so why do we need a bigger stadium just so we can host three world cup matches and we needed the investment in time to improve the team and avoid the current position. If the news is that the investment is coming now, I do ask why it could have not been organised a bit faster as I am sure the investors, if genuine, would have wished to avoid the nightmare we are currently in.

3 I am not calling for LS to be out. None of us actually know if he intends to stay long term. He is doing the job for free and he is well-off personally but not rich so he can't do that indefinately. He has no shares - unusual for a Chairman. I agree with many of the posters that the problems started a long time ago - back to sacking Francis but with not a clue how to get someone better. Appointing Pleat. Getting Ron Atkinson back, letting him choose to work without a contract and then sacking him when he was going to bring Nigel Pearson in as No 2. Some horribly expensive and disastrous player signings and managerial appointments. The re-issue of the shares which raised £17m through the Carterhouse investment - all spent and completely wasted and much more but to no good effect. DA upsetting many of the fan base. None of this is LS fault. My only point about LS is that he does have to share a small part of the blame - possibly 10%. Having got to where we were because of other peoples' mistakes - DR, DA and board members, managers and some players, I would have wanted to see what I have very briefly summarised in 2 above. I think his Children's Hospital move was a masterstroke, I think the card entry is an improvement but there is more hype about improvements off the field than substance and he does seem to like to rub up the fans the wrong way - after DA, that's crazy. I don't know yet about AI. After a good month, I am not sure that we are doing anything much better than under BL except that Purse is playing much better, although still not very good. I know the stats show that he is - but not compared with BL stats last season

It a complex topic and what should be done now is the most important question. Many posters will pick on one point in whatever is said and slate you for that point. this response is very short but needs to at least be read together.

OK Thanks.

I suspect LS thought almost exactly the same as you in point 1, as did I, therefore we cant blame him for the subsequent outcome as neither, you, I nor LS would have foreseen it.

On point 2, LS seems to have had the same priorities, he banged the drum on ticket sales as he felt this was the only way to secure the money to improve players. He has worked hard on investment, both in terms of seeking investment and making the club ready for it (Surely you agreewith that?). Thirdly he has improved the facilities a bit and shown a plan to revolutionise them. Sadly the 3rd priority has been the most successful, but I can't blame anyone for trying.

On point 3, I dont see an alternative to continuing with the current plan right now. The chairman has, in my view, made two errors, in sacking BL 5 games too late and in overdoing the fans call to arms (the right thing to do but too heavy a message). Both rookie mistakes, neither of which he will make again.

The real problem with SWFC is that a significant proportion of the fan base are struggling to come to the terms with the fact that, after 15 years in decline we are essentially a well supported Championship Club. We used to be Spurs, now we are Norwich which is a bitter pill to swallow. Huddersfield Town used to be massive, 3 titles in a row, International Players, etc. I wonder how many generations it took for the fans to come to terms with their new place in the world?

So in summary, the fans are to blame, because expectations are too high, people stay away because they expect better, those that go cry about it because they expect better, most expect a shortcut to success. It ain't happening anytime soon.

[Paul..]

Why would Chris care that we bought Purse? He's happy enough as Everton's goalkeeping coach last I heard.

[Aingarth]

OK Thanks.

I suspect LS thought almost exactly the same as you in point 1, as did I, therefore we cant blame him for the subsequent outcome as neither, you, I nor LS would have foreseen it.

On point 2, LS seems to have had the same priorities, he banged the drum on ticket sales as he felt this was the only way to secure the money to improve players. He has worked hard on investment, both in terms of seeking investment and making the club ready for it (Surely you agreewith that?). Thirdly he has improved the facilities a bit and shown a plan to revolutionise them. Sadly the 3rd priority has been the most successful, but I can't blame anyone for trying.

On point 3, I dont see an alternative to continuing with the current plan right now. The chairman has, in my view, made two errors, in sacking BL 5 games too late and in overdoing the fans call to arms (the right thing to do but too heavy a message). Both rookie mistakes, neither of which he will make again.

The real problem with SWFC is that a significant proportion of the fan base are struggling to come to the terms with the fact that, after 15 years in decline we are essentially a well supported Championship Club. We used to be Spurs, now we are Norwich which is a bitter pill to swallow. Huddersfield Town used to be massive, 3 titles in a row, International Players, etc. I wonder how many generations it took for the fans to come to terms with their new place in the world?

So in summary, the fans are to blame, because expectations are too high, people stay away because they expect better, those that go cry about it because they expect better, most expect a shortcut to success. It ain't happening anytime soon.

The truth is that we remain well supported, even by Championship standards and would be exceptionally well supported by Div 1 standards.

A really critical point - I don't think that fans stay away any more than they ever did. The true fans are already there. That is where I think you and LS misunderstand Sheffield people. They are not staying away , there is not enough on offer to make them want to come.

It's a very different analysis. One assumes something is making people not come, the other recognises something has to be done to attract them. What is missing is a real football experience - good football, exciting opposition, success, winning.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Andrew Robinson

[RobHowe]

The truth is that we remain well supported, even by Championship standards and would be exceptionally well supported by Div 1 standards.

It wouldn’t be out of place in the lower of the Premier League either.

A really critical point - I don't think that fans stay away any more than they ever did. The true fans are already there. That is where I think you and LS misunderstand Sheffield people. They are not staying away , there is not enough on offer to make them want to come.

It's a very different analysis. One assumes something is making people not come, the other recognises something has to be done to attract them. What is missing is a real football experience - good football, exciting opposition, success, winning.

But that presupposes that there are fans there in the first place that would come given the right circumstances.

For all the Chairman goes on about fans staying away, not buying in, etc, I’m not convinced we could get many more fans attending on a regular basis than we have now.

You’ve just got to look at our recent history. During the successful times of the early 90’s we were averaging circa 25,000-29,000 a game, during the times spent in Division 2 / Championship we were averaging circa 18,000-21,000 a game.

This season we’ll probably average around 22,000 which, when you consider the product on offer, the economic climate, the club’s immediate history and the fact that there are far more things for people to do these days compared to say 20 years ago, is nothing short of amazing IMO.

Wednesday have always had a significant number of fair-weather fans – every club has those and we are no different. It makes me laugh when people use Cardiff as an example of our potential support – I wonder how many people who went that day have been to a game since?!

[dorian gray]

I only agree with you partly. We have players who were capable of passing and receiving last season but not this - why is that? When I see Grant hoof the ball almost into the opposition penalty area for either their goalie or a defender to do the same back and then our defender to clear to their defender who then passes through the midfield and we have lost all the initiative, then maybe once we should pass. And I know that on the rare occasions that Grant throws the ball, for example against Watford to Tommy Spurr on two occasions, Tommy has made a right **** of it. I agree that the long ball, "lets prevent relegation" can work if the players are committed and told to attack - at the moment, that's not happening either! Oh for a young John Sheridan at the top of his game. I am not expecting us to win anything other than avoid total disaster.

we don't have a young john sheridan, we don't have an old john sheridan...lets be fair any john sheridan would improve us at the moment, just needs someone with vision and a pass, but the forwards need to move into space to create the opening...no use knocking it up to leon with his back to their goal...for it to come back 5 seconds later...

[dorian gray]

I seem to remember his Preston side tearing us apart in the second half to earn a well deserved point. He has already stated he can't play the brand of football he likes because of the crap position we are in

i agree with both you and him...however it's becoming obvious to almost everyone that we are going to have to attack someone pretty soon, yeah tight at the back, but for christ's sake lets have a go at someone with some sort of intent...

[Essix Blue]

Other managers in the last few years have inherited similar circumstances and done rather better with them (Shreeves, Yorath, Sturrock and Laws). Given the relative abundance of such examples at just one club in a fairly brief period, I'd say there's plenty of scope for criticising the current manager.

27 points from 21 games in charge.

Even if we don't get another point under AI his record would show 54 points over a full season.

[DJMortimer]

27 points from 21 games in charge.

Even if we don't get another point under AI his record would show 54 points over a full season.

So? That's only one point more than the figure 'guaranteed' to avoid relegation. Hardly amazing really is it?

Of all the managers who've inherited similar positions in the last decade, his record looks more like Chris Turner than Peter Shreeves/Terry Yorath/Paul Sturrock/Brian Laws before him.

[Essix Blue]

So? That's only one point more than the figure 'guaranteed' to avoid relegation. Hardly amazing really is it?

Of all the managers who've inherited similar positions in the last decade, his record looks more like Chris Turner than Peter Shreeves/Terry Yorath/Paul Sturrock/Brian Laws before him.

I think if you look at most managers records when going to a new club that's struggling, mid season, AI's will stand up.

He had the usual positive impact - 5 wins in his first 7 games, then the 'newness' wore off and the weaknesses in our squad showed through.

We've scored 9 goals in our last 14 games. Our 'strikeforce' is woeful and I think you'll find most people stated this would be a problem last September.

[chilvinho]

The truth is that we remain well supported, even by Championship standards and would be exceptionally well supported by Div 1 standards.

A really critical point - I don't think that fans stay away any more than they ever did. The true fans are already there. That is where I think you and LS misunderstand Sheffield people. They are not staying away , there is not enough on offer to make them want to come.

It's a very different analysis. One assumes something is making people not come, the other recognises something has to be done to attract them. What is missing is a real football experience - good football, exciting opposition, success, winning.

Maybe you are right, as I am not from Sheffield, have never lived there and only know 2 Sheffielders, one of whom died in 1975. I think though that you are arguing semantics. My point is that there are teams who are giants, teams who are sleeping giants and teams that are ex Giants. As I said, Huddersfield Town won the League 3 times straight, then they became sleeping giants, then ex giants. Their fans would have accepted it at different rates, it probably took 30 years to reset every fans expectations.

Its 15 years since the Lure of success would have created Wednesdayites. There are 21 years olds who only remember us struggling. To me it seems like Leapy Lee or Hirsty doing Man Utd in the last minute with the only goal at the Kop end was yesterday, to a whole generation, its something they have seen on Youtube. A whole generation of potential fans are lost to us.

Blackburn were big once, then they went to sleep then they became ex giants. Even when the bought success, they couldnt go from ex Giants to Giants again.

A few more giants who went to sleep then, became ex giants and will never wake up:

Burnley

Blackpool

Preston

Are Sheffield Wednesday

A. Giants

B. Sleeping Giants

C. Ex Giants

D. Other (please specify).........................

[M Royds]

Are Sheffield Wednesday

A. Giants

B. Sleeping Giants

C. Ex Giants

D. Other (please specify).........................

Have a poll.

I would say sleeping giants.

[Offside_Owl]

Brian Laws for me. He has signed a squad of absolute pap and failed to replace those who have left even remotely adequately.

We have made a huge, fat return of £0 on players signed by Laws, which is a daming indicment in the current era.

He ruined years or hard work to stabailise the club.

[nile]

Brian Laws for me. He has signed a squad of absolute pap and failed to replace those who have left even remotely adequately.

We have made a huge, fat return of £0 on players signed by Laws, which is a daming indicment in the current era.

He ruined years or hard work to stabailise the club.

^^^^^^^^^^^

this