So whose fault is it really?

[Guest sheridan's2penalties]

Maybe you are right, as I am not from Sheffield, have never lived there and only know 2 Sheffielders, one of whom died in 1975. I think though that you are arguing semantics. My point is that there are teams who are giants, teams who are sleeping giants and teams that are ex Giants. As I said, Huddersfield Town won the League 3 times straight, then they became sleeping giants, then ex giants. Their fans would have accepted it at different rates, it probably took 30 years to reset every fans expectations.

Its 15 years since the Lure of success would have created Wednesdayites. There are 21 years olds who only remember us struggling. To me it seems like Leapy Lee or Hirsty doing Man Utd in the last minute with the only goal at the Kop end was yesterday, to a whole generation, its something they have seen on Youtube. A whole generation of potential fans are lost to us.

Blackburn were big once, then they went to sleep then they became ex giants. Even when the bought success, they couldnt go from ex Giants to Giants again.

A few more giants who went to sleep then, became ex giants and will never wake up:

Burnley

Blackpool

Preston

Are Sheffield Wednesday

A. Giants

B. Sleeping Giants

C. Ex Giants

D. Other (please specify).........................

B. But another 15 years of this sh!t and it'll be C.

Big crowds like Cardiff and last Sunday occur because older fans who have stopped going regularly will come back on the big occasions.

Unfortunately, these fans aren't being replaced by a new generation cos all they know is us being s!te, while all the time the blunts are trying to entice the young 'uns over to the dark side (something that I know LS has tried to address).

The sooner we get back to the Prem the better (as if that isn't obvious enough). Even averaged-sized ( ) clubs like the blunts can get 33k averages up there. Unluckily for us we're going the opposite way ATM.

Edited April 23, 2010 by sheridan's2penalties

[M Royds]

Brian Laws for me. He has signed a squad of absolute pap and failed to replace those who have left even remotely adequately.

We have made a huge, fat return of £0 on players signed by Laws, which is a daming indicment in the current era.

He ruined years or hard work to stabailise the club.

^^^^^This as well^^^^^

£2-300,000 for Clarke. We wouldn't get £2-300 for him now.

[chilvinho]

B. But another 15 years of this sh!t and it'll be C.

Big crowds like Cardiff and last Sunday occur because older fans who have stopped going regularly will come back on the big occasions.

Unfortunately, these fans aren't being replaced by a new generation cos all they know is us being s!te, while all the time the blunts are trying to entice the young 'uns over to the dark side (something that I know LS has tried to address).

The sooner we get back to the Prem the better (as if that isn't obvious enough). Even averaged-sized ( ) clubs like the blunts can get 33k averages up there. Unluckily for us we're going the opposite way ATM.

Much less than 15 years. Huddersfield Town lost fans to Leeds United, as they were successful and accessible. Nowadays due to blanket TV Premiership coverage teams like The Wednesday potential fans to Arsenal, Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool. My seven year old is the only kid in his class supporting his local team, every other boy is a fan of a club between 100 and 250 miles away. I take em to watch and they sit there asking how Chelsea are getting on. CHELSEA, until recently a singularly unsuccessful despicable brand.

Wednesday are C. Ex Giants, there's us and Norwich City.

The sooner fans accept that and lower expectations the sooner we can stabilise.

[Glaser]

So? That's only one point more than the figure 'guaranteed' to avoid relegation. Hardly amazing really is it?

Of all the managers who've inherited similar positions in the last decade, his record looks more like Chris Turner than Peter Shreeves/Terry Yorath/Paul Sturrock/Brian Laws before him.

Is this tirade against Alan Irvine because you are still bitter about the completely inept "nice guy" ?

[SiJ]

i blame everyone but myself.

[M Royds]

Is this tirade against Alan Irvine because you are still bitter about the completely inept "nice guy" ?

[Guest CatBurt]

I'm unhappy with a blame culture.

I don't like conflict atall.

[scram]

Is this tirade against Alan Irvine because you are still bitter about the completely inept "nice guy" ?

Or it could be because of his record since taking over?

[Glaser]

Or it could be because of his record since taking over?

What ?

The record that is better than what Brians was this season ?

Do you honestly think we would be favourites for relegation with 2 matches to go, if Alan had been here since pre-season ?

[DJMortimer]

Is this tirade against Alan Irvine because you are still bitter about the completely inept "nice guy" ?

Is this the same 'nice guy' (God how tiresome that phrase is) who I've said many times the chairman had no choice but to dismiss?

It seems to me if a list was drawn up of Owlstalk posters obsessed with Laws, there are plenty ahead of me. And a couple of them have posted recently in this thread.

Our record under Irvine is underwhelming, could see us relegated and does not compare favourably with several other managers taking over in similar circumstances in recent years.

But hey, let's carry on sniggering as we find another excuse to say 'nice guy' for the 73rd time this week.

[M Royds]

Is this the same 'nice guy' (God how tiresome that phrase is) who I've said many times the chairman had no choice but to dismiss?

It seems to me if a list was drawn up of Owlstalk posters obsessed with Laws, there are plenty ahead of me. And a couple of them have posted recently in this thread.

Our record under Irvine is underwhelming, could see us relegated and does not compare favourably with several other managers taking over in similar circumstances in recent years.

But hey, let's carry on sniggering as we find another excuse to say 'nice guy' for the 73rd time this week.

Your trying hard to be nice.

[Offside_Owl]

My main question to Irvine would be over the loan signings. You extended the deals of Brian's duo, but did you now have ideas of players yourself who may be able to offer more? And did we really need Eddie Nolan when the money could have been si much better elsewhere. Simek may be a shadow of his former self but he was still more than capable of performing.

[DJMortimer]

Your trying hard to be nice.

I'm hoping it helps me get a managers job in the Premiership.

Edited April 24, 2010 by DJMortimer

[i used to be sc_owl]

Is this the same 'nice guy' (God how tiresome that phrase is) who I've said many times the chairman had no choice but to dismiss?

It seems to me if a list was drawn up of Owlstalk posters obsessed with Laws, there are plenty ahead of me. And a couple of them have posted recently in this thread.

Our record under Irvine is underwhelming, could see us relegated and does not compare favourably with several other managers taking over in similar circumstances in recent years.

But hey, let's carry on sniggering as we find another excuse to say 'nice guy' for the 73rd time this week.

That's a very relative point though. What I mean is, his record might be underwhelming if you think our players were good enough to be higher in the table. However, if one thinks our players are actually... well... poo poo at football... then his record isn't actually that bad.

For what it's worth I think a few factors conspired against the club this season. The trend of replacing players with lesser players continued. The new signings did not gel right away. Pro-zone. Wood leaving in the manner he did. Tudgay having his head turned. Another factor, often overlooked IMO, was MG hardly playing a part after the first few weeks due to injury, and when he did he didn't look the same player as last season.

[DJMortimer]

That's a very relative point though. What I mean is, his record might be underwhelming if you think our players were good enough to be higher in the table. However, if one thinks our players are actually... well... poo poo at football... then his record isn't actually that bad.

For what it's worth I think a few factors conspired against the club this season. The trend of replacing players with lesser players continued. The new signings did not gel right away. Pro-zone. Wood leaving in the manner he did. Tudgay having his head turned. Another factor, often overlooked IMO, was MG hardly playing a part after the first few weeks due to injury, and when he did he didn't look the same player as last season.

But as I've said many times before, did irvine inherit a club that was in a considerably worse state than Shreeves, Yorath, Sturrock and Laws did? The precedent is there many times in a short period of time. Five times we've been in these kind of circumstances in the last decade or so and all but one of them were able to mount a significant improvement. That's a decent body of evidence. Not only that, but the current team, regardless of what we now think of some of them, do have a track record of performing reasonably well at this level. That could not be said for any of Irvine's predecessors.

The fact remains, in 21 games we have clawed back just 2 points on the teams above us which is not a remarkable feat.

[M Royds]

But as I've said many times before, did irvine inherit a club that was in a considerably worse state than Shreeves, Yorath, Sturrock and Laws did? The precedent is there many times in a short period of time. Five times we've been in these kind of circumstances in the last decade or so and all but one of them were able to mount a significant improvement. That's a decent body of evidence. Not only that, but the current team, regardless of what we now think of some of them, do have a track record of performing reasonably well at this level. That could not be said for any of Irvine's predecessors.

The fact remains, in 21 games we have clawed back just 2 points on the teams above us which is not a remarkable feat.

Yes but we've got a chance. Under Laws the ghost was definitely given up and we were in serious free fall.

[DJMortimer]

Yes but we've got a chance. Under Laws the ghost was definitely given up and we were in serious free fall.

No question.

But how relevant is that in judging our new manager... unless you have a fixation?

[Guest jdowl1]

Heard on Five live that somebody had researched the numerous clubs who had changed managers and that over a significant period of time the only gain points wise was,,,1 point.

The winning formula was to change the manager and players.

[i used to be sc_owl]

There's a whole host of variables we are not aware of when it comes to judging Irvine against Shreeves or Yorath though. It's not just about the quality of the squad they inherited, but the quality of the teams in the division, the teams we had to play, injuries, suspensions etc... it all plays a part.

I don't think Irvine has pulled up any serious trees since being here.

I still believe that we simply reached a tipping point this season with a number of different elements coming together.

We'd been in decline for a while, but it was akin to driving down a hill towards the edge of a cliff.