pazowl55 Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, PEARSON said: The things is though Clare and Hirst obviously had a lot of talent and we didn’t develop or nurture that talent well enough at all. You can’t just say that because they haven’t done anything since that justifies the decision to not tie them down on new deals. We’ll never know, obviously, but had either of those players come through at a club better at bringing through young players I think there careers would be looking a lot better now. Had Walker and Maguire come through at Wednesday they probably wouldn’t have become the players they have. We’ll see what happens with Penney, who obviously shows a good amount of talent, but as I said earlier in the thread I think we just got lucky that Jos got the job at St Pauli and rates him. Otherwise he’d probably be in the U23s again this year. I think it’s not just the caliber of young players we have but that we have no idea what to do when a young player shows potential. It just boils down to the fact that we have a big squad and alot of players that are better than the current set of under 23s that we have had for the past few season. We could play them all in the cup games but surely that is better spend getting minutes into our other squad players. As for the Walker and Maguire bit. I dont think we have had a player of that calibre even looking like coming through. But if we did then I am sure we would have them in and about the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallyCinnamon Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 27 minutes ago, PEARSON said: The things is though Clare and Hirst obviously had a lot of talent and we didn’t develop or nurture that talent well enough at all. You can’t just say that because they haven’t done anything since that justifies the decision to not tie them down on new deals. We’ll never know, obviously, but had either of those players come through at a club better at bringing through young players I think there careers would be looking a lot better now. Had Walker and Maguire come through at Wednesday they probably wouldn’t have become the players they have. We’ll see what happens with Penney, who obviously shows a good amount of talent, but as I said earlier in the thread I think we just got lucky that Jos got the job at St Pauli and rates him. Otherwise he’d probably be in the U23s again this year. I think it’s not just the caliber of young players we have but that we have no idea what to do when a young player shows potential. Don’t agree with that. We gave Hirst a pro deal and let him develop in our youth and under 23 sides where he got England call ups. Not sure what more we could have done. He was with us during two seasons where promotion was a real possibility. We’d have been stupid to drop in form players and seasons pros to accommodate Hirst who was unproven at professional level. Ok you could argue signing Winnall and Rhodes provided an obstacle for his progression into the first team. But why should we have pandered to a young unproven 18 year old? Most pros who have made in to the very top will say it’s about taking your chance when you get it, being patient and working hard. And if Hirst had bided his time, he most certainly would have got plenty of opportunities the following season when strikers were injured and struggling for form. Hirst leaving is nothing to do with our inability to nurture young talent, it was his and his managements choice. As for Walker and Maguire, I think if they were at Wednesday the time they were coming through, they’d have played for us. Around that time we allowed youngsters like Spurr and Beevers to establish themselves. Who’s to say we wouldn’t have done the same with those two? They just happened to be better players than our crop. Plus we weren’t very good back then at all, so players of their ability would more than likely have been involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallyCinnamon Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 23 minutes ago, Slogboy said: I too think we will be lucky to keep Dawson or Penney. Penneys last game was against Nurnberg in front if 29500 fans. Why would he want to come back here to be on the bench or not in the squad. St Pauli is a BIG club too!! Depends if he wants to live in Germany for the long term. Big life decision. I hope he comes back here. We are short at left back and I hope the club realise he could be the player to fill that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiJ Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 (edited) I mean, we are all guilty of this, but the coaching staff see these lads In training every day. For whatever reason, quite a few haven't been deemed good enough. When they were given a chance, they either struggled or were given a rough time by some of our fans. Dawson, Wildsmith are in a difficult position as number 2/3 keepers. In an ideal world, they get a chance to go out and get some much needed experience, but then we need backup. Penny looked ok when he came in, but then his form went south. Probably wasn't helped with Jo's moving him into several different positions. Edited October 13, 2019 by SiJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEARSON Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 1 hour ago, SallyCinnamon said: Don’t agree with that. We gave Hirst a pro deal and let him develop in our youth and under 23 sides where he got England call ups. Not sure what more we could have done. He was with us during two seasons where promotion was a real possibility. We’d have been stupid to drop in form players and seasons pros to accommodate Hirst who was unproven at professional level. Ok you could argue signing Winnall and Rhodes provided an obstacle for his progression into the first team. But why should we have pandered to a young unproven 18 year old? Most pros who have made in to the very top will say it’s about taking your chance when you get it, being patient and working hard. And if Hirst had bided his time, he most certainly would have got plenty of opportunities the following season when strikers were injured and struggling for form. Hirst leaving is nothing to do with our inability to nurture young talent, it was his and his managements choice. As for Walker and Maguire, I think if they were at Wednesday the time they were coming through, they’d have played for us. Around that time we allowed youngsters like Spurr and Beevers to establish themselves. Who’s to say we wouldn’t have done the same with those two? They just happened to be better players than our crop. Plus we weren’t very good back then at all, so players of their ability would more than likely have been involved. Walker came through at United when promotion was a real possibility, he played in the play-off final that they lost to Burnley. I believe that was his first season. I think Naughton also came through around the same time. It’s the equivalent of us bringing through youngsters whilst we was in the play-offs, which as you said we just wouldn’t do. If you think we’re completely blameless in the Hirst situation you must be a bit deluded. You paint this image of an unruly youngster who doesn’t deserve a chance and giving someone game time as ‘pandering’ - It’s more what can Wednesday do to get there young talents playing at first team level. As you say we bought an unnecessary amount of strikers despite the fact we had a very talented one at youth level and then didn’t loan him out. We blocked any development he could have had other than playing for the U23s. The fact he was getting called up for international duty suggests he was a player of calibre that we did not develop. It’s not pot luck what players come through your academy. It’s not random that some clubs have a proven track record of bringing through young players whilst we don’t. The main reason why it’s important for a club like Wednesday is because we need funds. We can’t blame FFP and parachute payments, we can’t sell our stadium again. We need to have sustainable way of operating as a club and that involves developing younger players to either improve us or to sell for profit. As I said before though, that’s not just kids through the academy but also the type of players we buy. We’re doing it all wrong in my opinion and this stats highlights it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEARSON Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 2 hours ago, pazowl55 said: It just boils down to the fact that we have a big squad and alot of players that are better than the current set of under 23s that we have had for the past few season. We could play them all in the cup games but surely that is better spend getting minutes into our other squad players. As for the Walker and Maguire bit. I dont think we have had a player of that calibre even looking like coming through. But if we did then I am sure we would have them in and about the team. We’re not the only club in the country that have a big squad, how do you think other clubs do it? They make it of importance to develop young players I assume. Walker and Maguire weren’t world beaters at youth level. They weren’t tipped to reach the heights that they have. They were good young players, the same as what we’ve had recently in Clare, Hirst, Penney. Yeah, if the next Messi comes through your academy they’ll obviously be good enough and be around the first team without any extra help. Most young players are more potential than they are the finished article though and a good start to your career goes a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelerian Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 Who was the last Wednesday "product" to get a full England cap? ( I'm not including Vardy in this) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torryowl Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Slogboy said: I too think we will be lucky to keep Dawson or Penney. Penneys last game was against Nurnberg in front if 29500 fans. Why would he want to come back here to be on the bench or not in the squad. St Pauli is a BIG club too!! i doubt penney could earn at st pauli what he would get here which could be a reason for him to come back ….I don't know the regulations in german football but its possible that he may have problems being a none EU player . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pazowl55 Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, steelerian said: Who was the last Wednesday "product" to get a full England cap? ( I'm not including Vardy in this) Mel Sterland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelerian Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, pazowl55 said: Mel Sterland So approx 30 years ago. Wow. Incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pazowl55 Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, steelerian said: So approx 30 years ago. Wow. Incredible. We have only had about 4 england internationals in total since then though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRightSide Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 Of the established U23s I Can only see Dawson attaining anything like Championship level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRightSide Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Slogboy said: I too think we will be lucky to keep Dawson or Penney. Penneys last game was against Nurnberg in front if 29500 fans. Why would he want to come back here to be on the bench or not in the squad. St Pauli is a BIG club too!! The last time he played 90 mins for SWFC it was infront on 30,261... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallyCinnamon Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 1 hour ago, PEARSON said: Walker came through at United when promotion was a real possibility, he played in the play-off final that they lost to Burnley. I believe that was his first season. I think Naughton also came through around the same time. It’s the equivalent of us bringing through youngsters whilst we was in the play-offs, which as you said we just wouldn’t do. If you think we’re completely blameless in the Hirst situation you must be a bit deluded. You paint this image of an unruly youngster who doesn’t deserve a chance and giving someone game time as ‘pandering’ - It’s more what can Wednesday do to get there young talents playing at first team level. As you say we bought an unnecessary amount of strikers despite the fact we had a very talented one at youth level and then didn’t loan him out. We blocked any development he could have had other than playing for the U23s. The fact he was getting called up for international duty suggests he was a player of calibre that we did not develop. It’s not pot luck what players come through your academy. It’s not random that some clubs have a proven track record of bringing through young players whilst we don’t. The main reason why it’s important for a club like Wednesday is because we need funds. We can’t blame FFP and parachute payments, we can’t sell our stadium again. We need to have sustainable way of operating as a club and that involves developing younger players to either improve us or to sell for profit. As I said before though, that’s not just kids through the academy but also the type of players we buy. We’re doing it all wrong in my opinion and this stats highlights it. You’re way off the mark with Walker. He played 4 or 5 games for the Blades and then Tottenham signed him. They loaned him back out to the Blades for half a season and then he returned to Spurs. So United gave him his debut, but it was apparent very early that he was a pretty damn good as Spurs snapped him up with 5 senior appearances to his name. Yes he played in the play offs but I think it was clear he was more than capable at that age of playing at a level higher. Look, what has Hirst done since leaving Wednesday? If he was so talented and ready for men’s football, why did he struggle at OH Leuven? Their fans didn’t rate him and said he lacked speed and physicality. The Belgian second division is the equivalent of the conference. Just maybe the coaches who see them day in day out know more than the average fan? We should have sold when Leicester came knocking, I hope DC has learnt from that now. But to suggest we failed to nurture him is wrong. Hirst and his agent wanted out, if they didn’t he would have stayed and fought for a place in the first team. I agree we need to be more sustainable as a club and a way of doing this is giving young players a chance. But like I’ve said, they have to be good enough and be better than what we have in the first team. And currently none of them are. As we saw last season we chucked some in at the deep end and they struggled. It’s not the right environment for players to develop and make their mistakes. They need to do that out on loan, which to be fair some of them are now doing. Thorniley went out on loan and now looks ready to play for us every week. Unfortunately he has 3 very good centre backs ahead of him. That’s not the clubs fault, it’s just circumstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kagoshimaowl Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 On 12/10/2019 at 17:32, malek said: Our youngsters are not good enough because we don't invest in them and develop them. 6 years of investment into our academy and development sides, getting CAT 2 status, infrastructure, coaches, physios, sport science, etc... amounts in 0 minutes of first team football. Yes I totally agree with this. My point was that I don’t give a crap at the age of our starting lineup. All I care about is winning games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRightSide Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 Playing in the first team doesn’t make you a talent Being a talent gets you there and keeps you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adelphi1867 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 On 10/10/2019 at 11:48, malek said: Promotion to the PL should be top priority, but it is a travesty how much we are neglecting production and development of young players within the club. Especially now with FFP in place it was never more important to produce players and create value. Nothing new here, we have neglected the youth side of the game for the last 40years. That is why dem blades are years ahead of us in this, they invested, heavily, in youth development over the last 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fpowl Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 We win tonight we go top of arguably the most competitive league in the world pet shop the kids Jos made a great example of that sentimental old nonsense if they are good enough they will play personally I like the fact we have a few out on loan this year and I’m looking forward to seeing the likes of penny come back and push for that left back spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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