Perspective - This is a Major Rebuild & Jos Needs Time

[Utah Owl]

8 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

As I said earlier, I do think some of the high earning soon to be, out of contract players, will need to go. Our squad was definitely too big, so it’s natural wastage As for the three or four players we would need, the money freed up should help, but I’d be happy to do it with loans Don’t think we’ve utilised the loan system really. It’s the best way of obtaining the sort of quality, we could not afford to purchase Most teams recently promoted from this league, have used the loan system extensively

Not disagreeing with what you have said there, but doesn't that rather vindicate the way Jos is going about this (tactics aside)? He has brought several youngsters into the regular first team picture, plus two loanees. Until some of the deadwood gets shipped out that is surely the most he can do at the moment due to FFP?

 

I expect (certainly hope) to see further movement and changes in January with some of the older people leaving to give room for more play in the loan market.

[jonnyowl]

I agree with what the op says, but Jos has had nearly 40 games in charge.

 

And I still fail to see how we have made even small improvements in the way we play.

 

Actually I couldn't tell you the way we play.

 

I would ask Jos supporters to answer me these three questions.

 

What does Jos try and get his teams to do on the pitch?

 

Is this going to make us successful on the pitch?

 

What evidence have you seen in games to suggest he is implementing his style, not saying we should be the finished article yet, but have we made strides in playing the way Jos wants us to?

 

Sadly I can't answer the first two because I dont know, and has to be I've not seen anything for the third question!

[gurujuan]

4 minutes ago, Utah Owl said:

Not disagreeing with what you have said there, but doesn't that rather vindicate the way Jos is going about this (tactics aside)? He has brought several youngsters into the regular first team picture, plus two loanees. Until some of the deadwood gets shipped out that is surely the most he can do at the moment due to FFP?

 

I expect (certainly hope) to see further movement and changes in January with some of the older people leaving to give room for more play in the loan market.

To be honest, it’s his tactics that I have a beef with. Tactics which are not getting the best out of our creative players

[Hookowl]

2 minutes ago, jonnyowl said:

I agree with what the op says, but Jos has had nearly 40 games in charge.

 

And I still fail to see how we have made even small improvements in the way we play.

 

Actually I couldn't tell you the way we play.

 

I would ask Jos supporters to answer me these three questions.

 

What does Jos try and get his teams to do on the pitch?

 

Is this going to make us successful on the pitch?

 

What evidence have you seen in games to suggest he is implementing his style, not saying we should be the finished article yet, but have we made strides in playing the way Jos wants us to?

 

Sadly I can't answer the first two because I dont know, and has to be I've not seen anything for the third question!

 

I think that's the critical bit.

He hasn't really got what you could call his team.

He's got left overs from expensive mistakes with no money to form a team of his liking. Any other manager we got would inherit the same difficulties.

 

[Utah Owl]

4 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

To be honest, it’s his tactics that I have a beef with. Tactics which are not getting the best out of our creative players

Which is a fair point, there is certainly room for improvement there, but I'm still prepared to give him more time before pressing the panic button. Building a team and getting it right takes time, he hasn't really had any yet.

 

Jack Charlton was here for 6 years (fondly remembered) and whilst in many respects he saved us, he still couldn't overcome that final hurdle of getting us to the top flight. The first couple of seasons under him weren't exactly filled with free-flowing exciting football either!

Edited November 12, 2018 by Utah Owl

[gurujuan]

3 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

I think that's the critical bit.

He hasn't really got what you could call his team.

He's got left overs from expensive mistakes with no money to form a team of his liking. Any other manager we got would inherit the same difficulties.

 

I’ll repeat again, that’s the Sheffield Wednesday model. DC was clear about it, he wants consistency in recruitment, and will change the coach when needed. That is precisely to avoid a situation where, every time you change a coach, you have a huge turnover of players It’s the model used on the continent

Jos has been fortunate to inherit players like Lees, Bannan, Reach, Forestieri, Matias, Fletcher and Joao, he just needs to integrate them with the younger players, something he’s failing to do

[Walt]

19 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

I respect your different take on it, and even agree with you on certain aspects Post Wembley, we needed to replace Loovens, and didn’t While it’s true we lost three defenders, at the time, Loovens wasn’t the player he was in those first two years. Hunt, in my opinion, is no better than Palmer, but yes, Venancio has been a big miss 

However, we now have Hector, an excellent player, Penney is the best left back we’ve had in ages, Thorniley another good prospect, who is mature beyond his years, so I don’t actually think the defence has been downgraded.

I see the problems in that particular area, more to do with chopping and changing in systems and personnel Having an inexperienced keeper hasn’t helped either. Don’t get me wrong, Dawson is a very promising young keeper, but he doesn’t have the experience to properly command his area. Another factor is, we heap unnecessary pressure on the back line by giving up any semblence of attacking intent. That lack of attacking ambition, when we have creative talents like, Bannan, Reach and Forestieri, is utterly crazy. I stand by my opinion, that under a more a more forward thinking coach, we would be a lot higher up the table. We are not as bad as Jos makes us look

Palmer isn't a wingback and Baker isn't a wingback. Penney is nowhere near the consistent standard that Pudil (imo our best left back in years) set in his first season here. Penney has put in some poor displays, but Penney has also shown in some games that he could be a very, very good player. He's a kid and we are getting what you get with most kids - inconsistency, Fox isn't a wingback. I agree that Hector is a good player (prone to dropping the odd one every game mind) and Thorniley I have you spot on with. Thorniley, Hector, Lees and Pudi (when fit) we should be able to form a decent back three from. I agree with your take on Dawson and couldn't agree more regarding the chopping and changing players and systems. Put two experienced genuine wingbacks in that back 5 and I think you'd have a decent unit, one that can perform as a back 5 and more importantly perform as a back 3 when the wingbacks play more advanced roles...we haven't got that. Ironically the best wingback performance I've seen from us this season was from Matias when he was playing in a front 3! He spent more time running back to help out Palmer who was playing RB in a back 4. 

 

If (and it's a big if) we can keep FF and Matias fit then I would expect them to be more involved and Jos to play a more expansive game (like he did last season when he got FF and Bannan back) because like you say with players like Reach, Bannan and Joao we should be more than capable of it. That all depends on having a settled solid back line though. 

[Beholder]

Such a ridiculous argument that players should be excluded because they are above 30.

 

 

[gurujuan]

10 minutes ago, Utah Owl said:

Which is a fair point, there is certainly room for improvement there, but I'm still prepared to give him more time before pressing the panic button. Building a team and getting it right takes time, he hasn't really had any yet.

 

Jack Charlton was here for 6 years (fondly remembered) and whilst in many respects he saved us, he still couldn't overcome that final hurdle of getting us to the top flight. The first couple of seasons under him weren't exactly filled with free-flowing exciting football either!

I don’t like changing coaches constantly, and I’d be supportive of giving Jos more time, IF I could see a sign that we were making headway It just seems that, some people are ignoring the quality we already have, and playing this waiting game, for a time when we can buy more players. We have enough decent players to be much more competitive than we currently are

[torres]

It's very doubtful he will get sacked before the next set of games so;

 

Friday's game - set a level. That was the absolute bare minimum required from him and the team moving on. We had a solid base and played with a bit of pride in defending our goal.

 

The only way he can claw back some belief from a lot of the supporters is to build on it in the next 5 games. Anything less than Friday night and he surely can not remain in charge.

 

My worry is we will get beaten by Derby after another change in formation and players, fail under the pressure of an almost must win against Bolton - THEN he gets removed.

 

Leaving Bullen in charge for 2-3 games before we are even close to appointing anyone.

 

Then the new bloke has no time before its a stupid amount of games in no time.

 

 

 

 

[jonnyowl]

17 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

I think that's the critical bit.

He hasn't really got what you could call his team.

He's got left overs from expensive mistakes with no money to form a team of his liking. Any other manager we got would inherit the same difficulties.

 

Which I partly agree with, but do we have time (3 transfer windows) and the money to allow him to build his team?

 

What I would say is, Jos has completely failed to get the players we have to play in a certain way, or even look like he is trying to get them to play a certain way.

 

A good manager would look at the players available and develop a style and tactics to suit the players available.

 

Fail to see what tactics or style Jos is trying to get the players to do!

 

 

[sonofbert2]

6 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

I’ll repeat again, that’s the Sheffield Wednesday model. DC was clear about it, he wants consistency in recruitment, and will change the coach when needed. That is precisely to avoid a situation where, every time you change a coach, you have a huge turnover of players It’s the model used on the continent

Jos has been fortunate to inherit players like Lees, Bannan, Reach, Forestieri, Matias, Fletcher and Joao, he just needs to integrate them with the younger players, something he’s failing to do

 

To be fair he wasn't probably expecting to lose FF and MM and we were much better going forward when they were involved.

 

From the out and out strikers you will always see dips in form and the absence of Hooper, who is arguably our best when fit, as well as Winnall who hopefully will be be back soon as amplified our problems up front and heaped pressure on Fletcher who has done very well so far.

 

Hopefully Joao and Nuhiu can find some consistency/form again and allow us more options in attack.  Unfortunately we can forget about Hooper for now, maybe forever but there maybe one or two more youngsters to step up and make an impact.

[gurujuan]

5 minutes ago, Walt said:

Palmer isn't a wingback and Baker isn't a wingback. Penney is nowhere near the consistent standard that Pudil (imo our best left back in years) set in his first season here. Penney has put in some poor displays, but Penney has also shown in some games that he could be a very, very good player. He's a kid and we are getting what you get with most kids - inconsistency, Fox isn't a wingback. I agree that Hector is a good player (prone to dropping the odd one every game mind) and Thorniley I have you spot on with. Thorniley, Hector, Lees and Pudi (when fit) we should be able to form a decent back three from. I agree with your take on Dawson and couldn't agree more regarding the chopping and changing players and systems. Put two experienced genuine wingbacks in that back 5 and I think you'd have a decent unit, one that can perform as a back 5 and more importantly perform as a back 3 when the wingbacks play more advanced roles...we haven't got that. Ironically the best wingback performance I've seen from us this season was from Matias when he was playing in a front 3! He spent more time running back to help out Palmer who was playing RB in a back 4. 

 

If (and it's a big if) we can keep FF and Matias fit then I would expect them to be more involved and Jos to play a more expansive game (like he did last season when he got FF and Bannan back) because like you say with players like Reach, Bannan and Joao we should be more than capable of it. That all depends on having a settled solid back line though. 

Really then, the only thing we, perhaps disagree on, is whether it’s a three or four at the back Personally I’d prefer a four, with a proper holding midfielder who could drop back to make it a three when needed. Palmer, as you say, isn’t a wing back, but he’s a steady full back. Lees also plays better in a four. Penney has shown inconsistencies, but that’s to be expected, and I feel, a bit like Dawson, we just have to back him and persist

[room0035]

32 minutes ago, Utah Owl said:

Not disagreeing with what you have said there, but doesn't that rather vindicate the way Jos is going about this (tactics aside)? He has brought several youngsters into the regular first team picture, plus two loanees. Until some of the deadwood gets shipped out that is surely the most he can do at the moment due to FFP?

 

I expect (certainly hope) to see further movement and changes in January with some of the older people leaving to give room for more play in the loan market.

So look at it another way Jos does not play the experience players out of contract in the summer to build for the future. But this plan leads to the club struggling and ultimately getting relegated.

 

This leads to a loss of £4m+ in tv money, the players that don't want to play league 3 leave like reach, Bannan, Fessi or we cannot afford to keep them, we then also lose fans income and sponsorship income beciuase of the prices being harged for league 3 football.

 

The idea from Jos is ok but if its executed the way currently it is being done it will be a lot worse than playing you best players staying in the league then trying a few things at the end of the season when you league status is secured.

[Hookowl]

18 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

I’ll repeat again, that’s the Sheffield Wednesday model. DC was clear about it, he wants consistency in recruitment, and will change the coach when needed. That is precisely to avoid a situation where, every time you change a coach, you have a huge turnover of players It’s the model used on the continent

Jos has been fortunate to inherit players like Lees, Bannan, Reach, Forestieri, Matias, Fletcher and Joao, he just needs to integrate them with the younger players, something he’s failing to do

 

The thing with this is we may have got the consistency with recruitment initially, but not consistency with some players due to injury problems.

[gurujuan]

2 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

The thing with this is we may have got the consistency with recruitment initially, but not consistency with some players due to injury problems.

No, agreed. I was just pointing out what DC’s plan was How well it’s been executed, is another matter

[ZicoSterland2]

7 minutes ago, room0035 said:

So look at it another way Jos does not play the experience players out of contract in the summer to build for the future. But this plan leads to the club struggling and ultimately getting relegated.

 

This leads to a loss of £4m+ in tv money, the players that don't want to play league 3 leave like reach, Bannan, Fessi or we cannot afford to keep them, we then also lose fans income and sponsorship income beciuase of the prices being harged for league 3 football.

 

The idea from Jos is ok but if its executed the way currently it is being done it will be a lot worse than playing you best players staying in the league then trying a few things at the end of the season when you league status is secured.

Jos could well be remembered as the manager who bankrupted the club. That could well be the cost of relegation. Its one thing isolating the senior pros but not at the cost of destroying the club. Things need to improve and fast or Jos has to go.

[sonofbert2]

Nobody ever got promoted or relegated in November.

 

Maybe it's a Sheffield thing?

[room0035]

Just now, ZicoSterland2 said:

Jos could well be remembered as the manager who bankrupted the club. That could well be the cost of relegation. Its one thing isolating the senior pros but not at the cost of destroying the club. Things need to improve and fast or Jos has to go.

The other problem is Milan was a quick thinker with the finances and the club DC proved with Carlos he only got rid when he walked.

 

If he delays with Jos we could be gone as a club, before a new guy comes in, a divided squad and fan base and no scope to bring anyone in to help the team out because of the clusterfuck that is the way the club is run.

[room0035]

1 minute ago, sonofbert2 said:

Nobody ever got promoted or relegated in November.

 

Maybe it's a Sheffield thing?

They do in Norway their season runs March to November